RE: austria-fatality

[virgin-burner 1]

apparently the guy that went in on a balloon-jump wearing a wingsuit only had 50 skydives and about 300 BASEjumps..

word has, he was asking at the local DZ for a WS-FJC, the instructor denied him because of low numbers in skydiving. he went along and did the jump that killed him as he became unstable and got entangled with his parachute.

also, there were a couple of incidents recently involving sub-500 jumpers under highly loaded high-performance parachutes that appear to be self-thaught swoopers. they gotten away lucky and survived, badly injured, but anyway..

my skydiving-instructors have a different take on the whole thing, educate their peers even if they might not be ready; it is less likely that they will kill themselves if they have all the information readily available..

what is your opinion on the matter?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[virgin-burner 1]

i suppose this is a touchy subject from a liability POV..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[piisfish 135]

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what is your opinion on the matter?

he asked, got a refusal, tried anyways, got capital punishment.

The people who refused training got proof that they were right to refuse training.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[peek 20]

First of all, the more experienced skydivers need to adjust their attitude about how to deal with someone who is not ready to participate in an "advanced" activity.

If an experienced jumper/DZO/instructor/Skygod creates a lot of drama and more or less says, "You aren't ready, Boy, you're gonna kill yourself", it is a complete turn off, and learning will stop.

Someone who is not ready for an activity needs to be educated on the dangers, not ridiculed.

And to answer your question, if someone is educated on how to perform the "advanced" activity properly, they _should_ pick up on the fact that there is a lot they didn't think about, and in all likelihood, reconsider. Then if they don't further action can be taken.

[virgin-burner 1]

well, the dude had 300 BASEjumps, i wouldnt quite place him in the "not experienced enough"-area..

i dont know any further about what BASEjumps they were..

and i completely agree with attitude-adjustment; telling someone he's gonna die will not help, but will lead to dramas as it happened here..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[feuergnom 22]

i am thinking of this one since the end of last week when i heard what and how it happened (thanks to v.b. for asking the question and posting)

say this guy turns up at your place and is way over his head. you play it nice, educate him on the dangers, he makes a nice face to your ramblings and still walks off to do his (deadly) stunt. how do you feel? you did all you could do and there's still a fatality.

you say

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Then if they don't further action can be taken.

i appreciate your posts a lot, but what action can be taken? we live i a world of free purchase on the net so there is no way of stopping people comitted to do something really stupid

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[peek 20]

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...he makes a nice face to your ramblings and still walks off to do his (deadly) stunt ... but what action can be taken?

At that point a DZO could say, "You are not doing that at my drop zone". There is not too much else anyone could do.

[feuergnom 22]

and that is exactly what happened

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[FrancoR 0]

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well, the dude had 300 BASEjumps, i wouldnt quite place him in the "not experienced enough"-area..

i dont know any further about what BASEjumps they were..

and i completely agree with attitude-adjustment; telling someone he's gonna die will not help, but will lead to dramas as it happened here..

This just shows that jump numbers are not everything, with 350 jumps total and BASE experience he should have known that it is not a good idea to do more than one new thing at a time.

I know several jumpers that have serveral hundred jumps that should not fly a wingsuit. If the instructors found him not suitable to fly a wingsuit, then why should they teach them? Somebody that is not focused, not altitude aware and that has no feeling for the canopy is going to be very hard to teach how to swoop. Same goes if he doesn't have consistend good landings.

Franco

If it does not cost anything you are the product.

[virgin-burner 1]

zero-wind exits!? check, he's got 300 of those. matches recommendations for WS-instruction!? check, 350 jumps combined. focusing, altitude-awareness, feeling for his canopy, consistent good landings, i'd give a "check" on all of those; for what little i know, BASE is kinda unforgiving, and he wouldnt made it until here if he didnt have all those things..

jumpnumbers ARE NOT everything, but i believe this guy has met all of them..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[PhreeZone 15]

The jumper was not even close to meeting the recommendations for the wingsuiting. (200 in 18 months or 500 overall) BASE jumps are typically less altitude and non terminal jumps. Getting to terminal and maintianing it is something that only happens on a few objects so unless he only jumped those odds are he was sub terminal a lot. Static line, hand held and PCA objects don't teach any measuable skills that would be used in wingsuiting. The jumper may have had 350 parachute landings but the skills he needed were more terminal oriented and the only way to gain those was to do skydives.

Exiting a Balloon at 4000 feet in a Wingsuit for the first flight is a lot to deal with. It usually takes multiple attempts to maintain heading and to do the practice touches for a stable deployment while on a skydive, off a balloon you also have to deal with the Zero airspeed stability issues and then the added complications of the wingsuit to a jump that is going to last no more then 30 seconds until impact, less if there is any instability in the jump.

I've seen a few cases where a jumper asked around and people told them no and they kept asking until they finally found someone to say yes. Usually the instructor/mentor they pick is not one of the highest recommended instructors in their activity but instead is someone that thinks that they know best but has limited or no prior teaching experience or even credentials to back up their claims. This is a situation that is repeated all the time in a sport that is full of type-A personalities. Everyone thinks that they are better then average and so if they find one person to agree with them then its verification of their progression.

I have to agree with Gary, if someone wants to do something that they don't have the experience or knowledge for then the best option is to give them some of the info that they are missing and then outline a path for them to be able to gain the knowledge to fill in the gaps as part of their training program. If they decide that they know better then that and want to just jump to the results then its time for the DZ to ask them to leave.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[virgin-burner 1]

at this point, we dont know if he had 300 terminal cliff-jumps or not, we dont know at what height he exited..

i've been there myself, all the "you're gonna die"-comments would make me only look harder for someone. i ended up finding people that are highly reputable, helped me out with stuff, but most of all, talked me through that path you're talking about; and i'm grateful that i waited it off a little longer..

so, i'm kinda finding myself in there..

someone once said "its not about the destination, you'll get there at some time, its about the JOURNEY"! and he's right; for some people, myself included, that was the hardest part to learn. this guy ended up paying a fatal price to find out. if someone would have taken their time, this might have had another outcome..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[FrancoR 0]

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zero-wind exits!? check, he's got 300 of those. matches recommendations for WS-instruction!? check, 350 jumps combined. focusing, altitude-awareness, feeling for his canopy, consistent good landings, i'd give a "check" on all of those; for what little i know, BASE is kinda unforgiving, and he wouldnt made it until here if he didnt have all those things..

jumpnumbers ARE NOT everything, but i believe this guy has met all of them..

Good judgement not to do his first WS out of a Ballon (with a Base rig)? Check?

If it does not cost anything you are the product.

[virgin-burner 1]

and why did he probably feel forced to do so!?

back to the original question..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[DSE 3]

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my skydiving-instructors have a different take on the whole thing, educate their peers even if they might not be ready; it is less likely that they will kill themselves if they have all the information readily available..

what is your opinion on the matter?

We see lots of precocious kids that want to (and probably could drive) well before the legal age, too. Does that mean we teach them?

Having an attitude of "nah, you're not ready" and dismissing the discussion will likely end up in them going to someone else who *will* teach them when there aren't clear cut rules that everyone agrees on. There is a BMCI/E routinely takes people with fewer than 200 jumps as well. Both attitudes are wrong from my point of view.

Explain why there is a recommended jump milestone, provide exercises for the prospective wingsuiter that will help him/her as they work towards the wingsuit goal, and encourage them to build skills that will benefit them for that day when they first put on the nylon is a more productive approach as opposed to saying "you're not ready" and "you don't know what you don't know, come see me when you have 200."
Teach, don't alienate, IMO. Teaching doesn't mean you need to help them harm themselves doing something they're not ready for, either.

[FrancoR 0]

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and why did he probably feel forced to do so!?

back to the original question..

Why would be feel forced to go jump a Ballon?
The whole theory of a sucessfull wingsuit jump is available online and in the manuals. He could have easily gone to another dropzone, do a couple tracking jumps with pull practices for wingsuit deployment. After that he could have done a nice first flight with plenty of time to get stable and even do several real wingsuit practice pulls. This would not be the way i recomend starting wingsuit jumps, but a lot safer than taking your first flight from a Balloon.
I have never been asked if i got a first flight course by a wingsuit instructor at any dropzone.

The question you asked is a good question but i don't have a definite answer to it.
The prevention of the fatality in Austria would not have required formal wingsuit instruction, just judgement or he should have just remembered from this skydiving instructor to keep it simple when you try new stuff.

If it does not cost anything you are the product.

[virgin-burner 1]

i just got word that he had 300 skydives, 50 with a V1 that he didnt fly to good, and had bought a phantom2.. first jump on that suit. it appears the 300 basejumps were correct..

sorry for that!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[piisfish 135]

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and why did he probably feel forced to .

nobody forced him.
people told him not to.
he still did

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[virgin-burner 1]

the question still stands tough, whats the wiser choice, drive someone away, maybe into the arms of someone not as knowledgeable or just willing to take them up, or try to educate them about what they dont know, and maybe keep an influence on said person!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[base283 0]

It is human nature or rather the animalistic tendencies in humans that bring about this trait of "The Gamble". That is where the potential Experts are born or die. This is the price of advancement.
He apparently decided (IMHO) that it was safer to take it from a balloon than from the terminal cliff he had many jumps from at a slightly lower height from Exit to main LZ.
Take care,
space

[LouDiamond 1]

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i just got word that he had 300 skydives, 50 with a V1 that he didnt fly to good, and had bought a phantom2.. first jump on that suit. it appears the 300 basejumps were correct..

sorry for that!

That information differs a good deal from your original post. According to your new info he had 50 jumps on a V1, so what was he seeking from the local Wingsuit instructor, coaching or a FFC?

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[littlestranger 0]

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If an experienced jumper/DZO/instructor/Skygod creates a lot of drama and more or less says, "You aren't ready, Boy, you're gonna kill yourself", it is a complete turn off, and learning will stop.

Someone who is not ready for an activity needs to be educated on the dangers, not ridiculed.

i agree whole heartedly with this statement. when i first had the inclination to jump a wingsuit i had the prerequisite 200 skydives. i went through the FJC with the phoenix fly instructors at my dz but was not permitted to jump the wingsuit because one of the aff instructors convinced the DZO that because i was a freeflyer my tracking skills were suspect. wtf.

if someone seeks education, provide it, don't judge their ability to learn or perform a particular skill based on your personal predjudices.

[chuckakers 370]

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i am thinking of this one since the end of last week when i heard what and how it happened (thanks to v.b. for asking the question and posting)

say this guy turns up at your place and is way over his head. you play it nice, educate him on the dangers, he makes a nice face to your ramblings and still walks off to do his (deadly) stunt. how do you feel? you did all you could do and there's still a fatality.

Much like the guy that showed up at my DZ at 220 pounds, 200-something jumps, and a rig that looked like a lunchbox. I respectfully turned him away, explaining that I just didn't feel comfortable with his situation. He went down the street and killed himself that weekend with big, fat hook turn.

Self-police or be policed. Besides these people are costing the rest of us, even if it's just the time to do the paperwork.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[virgin-burner 1]

according to the new info, he was mostly unstable on the V1, so he got a smaller suit; wild guess from me is he seeked coaching.

how about if we leave the details out and just concentrate on the original question?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[hikeat 0]

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he became unstable and got entangled with his parachute.

Was it a low pull? Was he entagled with the bidle, lines, canopy? What kind of "unstable" position are we talking about?

This seems insane to me. I have seen many people pull in all kinds of unstable positions and I have personally tossed unstable a few times and have had line burns on my legs from deployment. I have never seen or heard of anyone getting entangeld in thier own canopy and preventing it from deploying. I'm sure someone will chime in and prove me wrong here, but I can't see how you could stop a free packed canopy from deploying once it's out into terminal airspeed for any length of time.