PeregrineFalcon 0 #1 August 30, 2008 I hope it's not inappropriate for me to post this in this forum. Forgive me if it is. I had 4 jumps 14 years ago and started over again recently. After level 2, the JM said I was ready to jump with only 1 JM, do a release and, if I felt comfortable, do my 90 degree turns on level 3. I did that. At level 4, I did 360 turns. With the exception of needing to extend my legs more, I did pretty well. My question is...does this sort of thing happen often or rarely with JM's? At first I thought the JM was pushing me too hard, but since I was able to do the maneuvers, I'm really glad he's giving me the slack and encouragement to progress faster than others. He says I'm ready and capable and I'm learning to trust him. I am, however, being very aware of my limitations and not going beyond my boundaries. One other question. After the 360 turns, I had the urge and the altitude to do some forward movement. I didn't do it, though, because I thought the JM would be pissed at me doing something unplanned. Would you as a JM be pissed if a student did something like that? Thanks for the replies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,106 #2 August 30, 2008 Plan your dive Dive your plan Don't scare the Instructors...Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chubba 0 #3 August 30, 2008 My AFF 5 involved 2 x 360 turns + docking which I did reasonably quick. The plan given was after I completed the tasks, just relax, have a geek at eachother and keep track of my altitude. I decided to rip a few quick 360's... he thought I was spinning... came in and did a tackle. He wasn't happy with that Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #4 August 30, 2008 The AFF program isn't written in stone. A good experienced Instructor can and should tailor things to individuals students. And in your case, your level two was actually your sixth jump. And even though they were long ago they do count for something. On the other side of the coin, while still on the ground, if your Instructor asks you to do something in the air you aren't comfortable with, for whatever reason, just say so. You're the boss and you're paying the freight. And lastly, as the other poster said, "Dive the plan." And that goes for your entire skydiving career. It can really get your Instructor's heart going when you suddenly change the steps in the middle of a dance. And once you do it becomes that much harder for them to stay a step ahead of you. And that's where Instructors always need to be. Welcome back, BTW . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #5 August 31, 2008 Sounds like a fairly typical AFF progression to me. At the DZ I used to instruct at, we would have had you doing 360's by jump 5 assuming no repeats, but the programs vary.... larger DZ's tend to have programs with fewer jumps. They can do this in part because they tend to have the best instructors, which often mean their students progress more quickly. Congrats, it sounds like you are doing well. On your question about doing something unplanned on a dive: NEVER, EVER do this! During the dive, the instructor will likley think you're having a massive brain fart or a body-position problem. If you tell them afterward it was intentional, they will NOT be happy. I could see being failed for this alone, even if it went well. You made the right call.Even when you're an experienced, licensed jumper, unplanned actions are not a very good idea. yes, I'll occasionally grab someone and flip 'em over at the end of a dive (assuming altitude is sufficient), but only on a dive with people I know and trust that I am absolutely sure will be laughing at it in freefall instead of wondering what the hell is going on! Even then, I almost always have that stuff planned before exit (usually reserved for 500th jump dives and the like)... I just don't tell the other guy the plan. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #6 August 31, 2008 Quote A good experienced Instructor can and should tailor things to individuals students. BINGO! Alot of people learn at a different pace. Adjusting the dives for a faster progression, and to the students abilities, is something I do in my private AFF course. Though I have worked at a DZ that "milked" every level out of the student regardles of their above average abilities.www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robblack31 0 #7 August 31, 2008 I could look this up, but what is the minimum number of jumps the "perfect" student could do in your course? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #8 August 31, 2008 QuoteI could look this up, but what is the minimum number of jumps the "perfect" student could do in your course? In the last couple of years I have had students complete the required basic TLO's in 4 jumps, but it's a rare occurrence that you get very experienced paraglider pilots, with tunnel time.www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #9 August 31, 2008 We had a young guy with a film crew come through the school one time doing a spec show for MTV. He went from no jumps to his "A" license in five days, I think the show was called, "Zero to Hero" or something like that but I never actually saw it . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeregrineFalcon 0 #10 August 31, 2008 QuoteI could look this up, but what is the minimum number of jumps the "perfect" student could do in your course? I haven't asked. But I do know that since I paid ahead of time, I'm eligible to get nine jump tickets if I graduate one level early. It's not such an incentive that I'm willing to try something I'm not ready for, but if I have the ok from the JM and I feel I can handle it, I'm going to try it. Hell that's nine jumps! I jump tomorrow morning for AFF level 5 (modified). If their Sky King is running again, I'll probably graduate tomorrow. If it's only the Cessna, I'll only be able to do one jump. Holy shit, I can't stop thinking about it!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #11 August 31, 2008 Quote We had a young guy with a film crew come through the school one time doing a spec show for MTV. He went from no jumps to his "A" license in five days, I think the show was called, "Zero to Hero" or something like that but I never actually saw it . . . NickD Nice. Some can hit it hard with good abilities and awareness, and some are burnt after one or two jumps in a day.www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #12 August 31, 2008 Quote If their Sky King is running again You mean King Air...Good luck www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #13 August 31, 2008 Quotelarger DZ's tend to have programs with fewer jumps. They can do this in part because they tend to have the best instructors That is complete and utter bullshit and you know it! There are great instructors at big DZs and at smaller DZs. What I've seen is that many times at smaller DZs you tend to take more jumps to finish up a student progression due to the larger amount of time an instructor is spending with a student. More information gets taught and more time is taken with that information. Sometimes that will translate into more jumps. Some say that's a bad thing, some say its a good thing, I just say its different from DZ to DZ.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #14 August 31, 2008 >>they can do this in part because they tend to have the best instructors, which often mean their students progress more quickly.I ain't buying that one either. You don't have to be busy and at a big DZ to be a good Instructor. In fact, at some larger more known DZs it sometimes becomes big mutual admiration society. And not always the best Instructors get the most accolades. The funny thing about Instructors is the people they influence and help the most often don’t stick around long enough to sing their praises. So compared to some people like experienced jumper load organizers nobody much notices them. Even some coaches get more attention as once a student gets to that level they are usually going to stick around. And by that time they forget, and mostly on purpose, the gray hairs they gave to their primary Instructors. In passing I've heard many very experienced jumpers off handily mention how they were "naturals" as students. But I think back to when they couldn't put one foot in front of the other, smile to myself, and just keep walking. When ever I travel and stop at a strange to me DZ I always get into earshot of other Instructors. I just like listening to them. I've even slyly stood by a window or door and eavesdroped on parts of first jump courses. Sometimes I pick up a new trick and sometimes I'm mortified. But it never has anything to do with the size of the DZ. It's always nice to have several fast climbing turbines at your disposal, forty state of the art student rigs, and an air conditioned classroom with every training aid there is. But that won't make a marginal Instructor into a good one. On the other hand I've come across stellar Instructors who shoehorn themselves and their charges into a Cessna, have just three sizes of older but perfectly serviceable student gear, teach under a Wal-Mart blue tarp, and draw diagrams in the dirt with a stick. I'm glad to see PARACHUTIST Magazine is now finally running a monthly featured Instructor piece. I've been bugging them about that oversight for twenty years. And it's not so much to gain anyone the publicity, although they deserve it, but I'd like to see the overall profile of Instructors somewhat raised. And for no other reason then maybe some jumpers will get the idea of becoming Instructors themselves. We are losing our most experienced full time Instructors from the sport like smoke up a stack. After all it's the priest hood of skydiving complete with the vow of poverty. But the one thing that transcends the money issues, the family problems, and the lack of respect, is going home at night knowing you made a difference. And that's worth a million bucks . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #15 August 31, 2008 Dave And Nick, I actually agree that all your points are correct. I've been to a whole lot more small DZ's than large DZ's, and some of the best instructors I'll ever meet have been at some of the smallest DZ's. One of the best instructor's I've ever met did most of his work at a single-182 operation in Alberta that didn't even have an outhouse, let alone a hanger or a student room. Obviously state-of-the-art gear, fast turbines, and pretty student rooms are nice, but irrelevant when it comes to quality of instruction. That said, I stand by my statement. First off, I said TEND to have the best instructors. It's true... really good instructors who truly want to make their living in the sport have a frustrating tendancy to leave their DZ in favor of somewhere warm where they can earn enough money to buy a slightly fancier trailer and live the high life with Dijon Ramen. Yes, others stay... good for them, small DZ's around the world thank them. The other issue is experience and currency. An instructor who has the opportunity to do 150 AFF's a year or more is going to be more current and gain skill and experience much more quickly than the same instructor at a small DZ where he may only do a couple dozen a year. Granted if you're a shitty isntructor it doesn't matter how much experience you have, but if you're a good one, you'll get even better. My statement was a broad generalization that has many, many exceptions, but I still believe it's true. It is uncommon to find a large DZ with no quality instructors. I have seen several small DZ's that don't have anyone that I would call better than "good enough"... occasionally I've seen small DZ's that don't have ANY instructors past the tandem level. "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeregrineFalcon 0 #16 August 31, 2008 Quote Quote If their Sky King is running again You mean King Air...Good luck Yeah, that's what I said, King Air! It's still not ready, but I was able to squeeze in two jumps. God, my forward rolls look like shit, but they were my first attempts. I broke a steering line on the second jump! The canopy still responded, so I stuck with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Don 0 #17 September 1, 2008 MMMkk .. WTF? Who is the poor asshat in your avatar?I am NOT being loud. I'm being enthusiastic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeregrineFalcon 0 #18 September 1, 2008 QuoteMMMkk .. WTF? Who is the poor asshat in your avatar? Someone with more hair and better looking than the shmuck in your avatar. Really? Trolls on this site too? They're everywhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Don 0 #19 September 1, 2008 Not a troll. Just having a bit of fun late at night! I am NOT being loud. I'm being enthusiastic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #20 September 2, 2008 Quote It's true... really good instructors who truly want to make their living in the sport have a frustrating tendancy to leave their DZ in favor of somewhere warm where they can earn enough money to buy a slightly fancier trailer and live the high life with Dijon Ramen. You're correct that really good instructors do that. What you're missing is that so do really bad instructors. The desire to work full-time in this sport has nothing to do with how good someone is. Also, while you nailed the currency issue, you also forgot the time-managment/economic factor. The part-timer simply funding his fun jumps or instructing because it's what he likes to do is more likely to spend whatever time is necessary with a student than the full-timer needing to get his next 3 jumps in so he can make his credit card payment on time. Overall, I think most of the differences come out in the wash and good (and bad) instructors can be found in a wide variety of places. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #21 September 2, 2008 Good points. It does go the other way as well... I left a big turbine DZ where the instructors do 10+ working jumps in a day to be at a single 182 dz, where I do 3-6 working jumps a day. I make less jumps in a weekend, but this is infinitely better. I know all of my students by name, can give them as much time as they need for ground preps and de-briefs and have a lot more freedom to customize the jump to their individual needs. I'm happier this way... and if I'm happy, everyone's happy. If I'm cranky... watch out!! Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeregrineFalcon 0 #22 September 2, 2008 Quote You're correct that really good instructors do that. What you're missing is that so do really bad instructors. The desire to work full-time in this sport has nothing to do with how good someone is. Also, while you nailed the currency issue, you also forgot the time-managment/economic factor. The part-timer simply funding his fun jumps or instructing because it's what he likes to do is more likely to spend whatever time is necessary with a student than the full-timer needing to get his next 3 jumps in so he can make his credit card payment on time. Overall, I think most of the differences come out in the wash and good (and bad) instructors can be found in a wide variety of places. Yeah, I get what you mean. When I went this weekend, I asked if it was possible to graduate a level early (because I obviously wanted to exchange the last lesson for nine free jump tickets). He said it was impossible at this point because of my "exits" saying that he needed to see two solo exits and then a diving exit. Later, I found out that he had just become the new owner of the DZ. LOL! So, I did the solo exit and then he had me do a diving exit right after that. I guess he forgot about "having to see two solo exits before the diving exit." It's all good, though. I'm not mad. He must be strapped for cash after buying the place. A couple of weeks ago, he didn't have any headlights on his car. Plus, he's a hell of a nice guy and I'm learning a lot from him. So, I'm happy to give him the business. Another thing, a line broke on one of my dives and he didn't make me pay for it (whatever that would have cost, I'm sure it would have been nominal, but I can see some asshole owner jacking up the price on it since a newbie like me wouldn't know any better). All-in-all, he's a nice enough guy that I'll be going back for coach jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #23 September 4, 2008 Quote if I'm happy, everyone's happy. If I'm cranky... watch out!! Somehow I can believe that. To the OP: Good attitude, man. Keep it going. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
