TI's Do you arch?

[johnny1488 1]

Cause I don't. Are you an archer or no?

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[AggieDave 6]

I typically fly pretty knees low, not quite as low as your picture, but I find it smoother and in more control with my knees lower.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diablopilot 2]

I fly knees low most of the time as well. Helps "center" the student.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[steveorino 7]

I arch like a mother ... helps me out fly bad student body positions. (not that this guy's position was bad)

steveOrino

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Yeah, I arch.

[robblack31 0]

I arch like hell out the door but then tend to go a bit knees low but not nearly as much as yourself. I am glad you posted this question, it really made me think about what I do...

[extremeshannon 0]

Great post. I Arch out the door dump the drogue and Drop my Knees and look for the camera man to see what I need to do if he is not with me.

[flipper 0]

Nope don't arch, easily have my legs as low as yours ... no problemo

Prefer to have my legs low and in the air flow, to me I have more control this way

[cpoxon 0]

Yes, I'm an archer (of sorts, I don't fly knees down generally). I think arching on exit is especially important; the few times I've had trouble is generally when I haven't been arching enough (coupled with poor student position).

I'm only Vector type rated, but from the pictures I've seen, it seems to me that the way the Strong systems fly seem to promote more of a knees down/straddle position?

Also, it seems that in order to be able to fly knees down, that the laterals need to be looser?

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[Rover 11]

90% of the jumps I do are with handcam so the arch is compromised.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[rhys 0]

Quote

90% of the jumps I do are with handcam so the arch is compromised.

Me too, i find arching taskes more energy and I lke to have that energy for when i need it!

I will arch with troubled students but I find they have become less with my more breif, positive, easy, breifing.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[sid 1]

This really is a good post, we were talking about this the other day. I don't arch hard out the door, more neutral so that I can compensate for whatever the student is doing and keep the camera in a good position. During droguefall I'm again kinda neutral and then arch if I need to - the Racer system is balanced almost dead center (as opposed to the Vector 2's we have here also which fly you a little head down) so I find raising my legs can give me a lot more control if they decide not to arch.......

Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

[johnny1488 1]

I do not gorilla the laterals. We have stradle benches, so I drop my knees and snug the laterals, but thats all. I see some guys have the students help wrench the laterals. Not sure what it does for the instructor, but Im pretty sure it makes it harder for them to arch.

For me the laterals just keep us together, th uppers are for attaching us to the canopy. I use my knees to keep the student from swimming under me. Also it makes it much easier for me to pop the lower laterals.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[tsalnukt 1]

"...and look for the camera man to see what I need to do if he is not with me. "

Can I just say that I wish there were more TI's like you. Awesome.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Also, it seems that in order to be able to fly knees down, that the laterals need to be looser?

Interesting, I've always felt the opposite.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[livendive 8]

It depends on the size/shape of the student and what they're doing. It seems to me the chronic dearchers are more prone to potato-chipping, which I think looks goofy and just don't do. Still, I usually drop my knees a little with the smaller students, just to keep them centered under me.

More arch

Less arch

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[diablopilot 2]

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"...and look for the camera man to see what I need to do if he is not with me. "

Can I just say that I wish there were more TI's like you. Awesome.

Just find more of us Tandem Instructors that learned to jump camera first and still do

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[skydiver30960 0]

HARD arch out the door, then still arched but a bit relaxed under drogue. I've found myself (over the past couple years or so) moving my arms down to the clean air to the side of the student, instead of always fighting the burbles behind their arms. I feel it gives me much better control. And since I'm behind/below their arms, I'm not as worried about having my arms trapped as I would be if I was above/in front of theirs.

Elvisio "pic from sunday attached" Rodriguez

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

I'm only Vector type rated, but from the pictures I've seen, it seems to me that the way the Strong systems fly seem to promote more of a knees down/straddle position?

i wouldn't say the equipment promotes the knees down position, but rather it allows it more. When I started using the Vector system I noticed I was much more likely to potato chip if I wasn't arching. With smaller students I find I need to arch harder for the camera flier (especially those without wings grrr).
More than anything I just like to arch because I enjoy the skydive more when I feel like I am flying rather than hanging under a drogue waiting to perform my human AAD function.

[HUSHPUPPY 0]

I arch like hell till I have a good drogue, then relax some after my handle checks! I'm still learning how to be a good TI!

"You made my panties wet!" Skymama (Fitz 09)
"Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."

[bodypilot1 0]

I know a few TI's that dont arch when doing tandems, and they suck doing RW. The lazyness translates into the rest of your skydiving as well.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[skydived19006 4]

I must be a bit unique after reading through the responses here.

I de-arch off the step (182 diving aft), and let the roll go over. Seems to me that with this exit, the student very seldom arches immediately off the airplane, but after about 1 second or half way over, and me tapping them on the thighs, they start to get over the sensory overload, and start arching. At this point, I start arching as well. I do not tend to try to “out fly” a de-arching student, I’ll let the thing fall stable on our backs and work with the student to get us both stable, I’ll do this for a couple of seconds anyway. My opinion, and from what I’ve seen is that an arching TI, and a de-arching student is prime set up for a side spin, )( kind of thing. It’s also “ugly” to me to see a TI leave the plane in a hard arch, and simply keep arching regardless of what the student is doing in front of them. It looks like they’re just hoping and waiting for the thing to get to a point that they can throw the drogue, or go into a side spin whichever comes first. I work with the student first, and arch second. It may be a little unorthodox, but in over 2000 tandems, I could count on my fingers how many times I’ve even felt wind on my side.

Once the drogue is out, I arch. I don’t get the comments about hand cam “compromising the arch.” I do stick my left hand down, but all the more reason to have my legs out in the wind steering. As others have said, the de-arching TI can also tend to make the thing potato chip, I don’t really get it. If the student is not centered under me, I reach down with my hands and center the student under me. I also keep the lowers rather tight in order to keep the student from “slopping around” under me. I do not like the feeling of a student bouncing around in front of me, especially before the drogue is out, so the lowers are tight.


Pictures attached
Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[cpoxon 0]

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My opinion, and from what I’ve seen is that an arching TI, and a de-arching student is prime set up for a side spin, )( kind of thing.

I was thinking about this last night, and I think that is Strong's opinion too. I haven't seen it but I believe that in their Side Spin video they recommend balling up with the student in order to get out of it for the same reasons that you give.

I've never done a tandem from anything smaller than a Porter, so I admit I don't appreciate the difficulties of doing one from something like a 182 but falling on my back (stable or otherwise!) is not somewhere I really want to be with an inexperienced person on my front :-P Like you say, it's a bit unorthodox; I realise that the Vector manual is a bit old but that technique for exiting a Cessna is not in there

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[riggerrob 615]

Agreed!
I always thought that flying knees low was to prevent the student from washing sideways, because you forgot to tighten the laterals enough.

Mind you, when I jump with fat chicks, I never get the laterals tight enough - something about fat being compressible - and end up with a significant gap between us. To compensate for this tandem-bundle-like configuration, I just arch my legs twice as hard.

Like I tell young tandem instructors: "If the student refuses to arch, you will have to arch twice as hard."

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner

[riggerrob 615]

Last time I read the Vector manual, it still illustrated poised exits from Cessnas, a practice now frowned upon by Vector Tandem Examiners.
The last time I did a poised exit from a Cessna, the student tried to stand upon the step, jammed us into the underside of the wing and bent a reserve pin.
If you start by sitting or kneeling - facing aft - you vastly reduce the risk of damaging/dislodging reserve pins.
Since 1994, I have done close to 3,000 sitting exits from Cessnas (182, 205, 206 and 210).