Liemberg 0 #51 December 18, 2007 Maybe this should go into 'History and Trivia' but here goes: Once, "somewhere on the planet" - I was standing in line with my passenger hooked up in a civilian 'Eastern European' MI8 helicopter that also had a few locals "as paying non juming passengers along for the ride", them not wearing parachutes. One of them was carrying a small kodak camera. (film in stead of cellphone I grabbed his arm as he walked past me towards the opened ramp to get a nice shot of his lovely medditerenean island from above.... (He even looked a bit p&**#d off when I told him to return to his seat and remain there) Wasn't USPA / BPA affiliated, that DZ - and in another lifetime of course ... (C206 lowers connected due to lack of manouvring room - all others hooking and checking 1.5 minutes prior, which isn't to say that my pax are allowed to wander outside my immidiate reach...) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #52 December 19, 2007 First of all....I have been in lots of different planes at uspa DZ's in the US including skyvans and CASAs and I have never seen TM's sitting opposite students. If I did I would take it upon myself to say something to the DZ management. Helmets aren't going to make that much of a difference in a plane crash and they certainly don't protect arms legs necks and backs from breaking. If you're arms are broken and the passenger is hooked up they are most likely not going to be able to get them selves free....If you don't believe me, try unhooking yourself from the front on the ground....It's hard to do when you know how everything works and there aren't people laying on top of you panicking....As for the hook knives...If you are doing Tandems without one then that's just dumb. You should have all the right tools for the job. If you are all hooked up and the plane crashes, you are going to make it more difficult for people to get out behind you. Give me a good reason to hook someone up at all 4 points on the ground. I think you have been given enough reasons why it's not a good idea. You should be the hero and try to make a change. this is a cut and dry argument.....You are doing more harm than good by having a passenger attached to you before you leave the ground...but like I said...try and change my mind Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairymango 0 #53 December 20, 2007 Tina - what does jump numbers have anything to do with knowing about organisations? I have dealt with the USPA, BPA, APF,NZPF. From personal experience I know that the BPA are not a shinning example of a way to do things. Also I know people that have operated dz's in the UK for over 20 years and guess what......... they have the same opinion of the BPA, as do many instructors I have met from all over the world - people with thousands of jumps and many years of experience. So thanks for your patronising comments but it doesnt excuse the fact that the BPA has the same way of thinking as you. Backwards. Im not trying to start an argument about which oragnisation is safer - its the people that jump that make the mistakes. For your information im not from the US, nor do I think I know everything. Im learning every day and will continue that way. I used to hook my passengers up in the plane before take off until my collegue told me about the time he was first on the scene to a jump plane which had crashed on take off and was on fire....... So back to the point of this discussion - give me one good reason why you should hook your passenger up in the plane before take off or an altitude that you can safely exit the plane. It takes longer to unhook a passenger than it does to hook them up. Add panic, smoke, fire, water to the equation and you have a big problem. How many times have you hooked/unhooked yourself to a tandem passenger? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davegresh 0 #54 December 20, 2007 There isn't much difference between the two different viewpoints. After the from the most recent aircraft accident in the UK, the BPA produced form F261 which gives details of recommended procedures in the event of a crash landing (its on the website www.bpa.org.uk). The advice they give is that tandem pairs should be disconnected if crash landing is inevitable. Which is what i was suggesting a few posts up; if you realise that your going to crash land, its only going to take a couple of seconds to disconnect your student. The only way the 'BPA' way will make a difference is if you crash immediately on or just after takeoff. Even then, its down to the particular circumstances of the crash as to whether it makes any difference, and so far no one has presented anything other than anecdotal evidence that having them disconnected is going to be safer. Does the USPA (or anyone else) publish similar guidance, or is it down to SOP's? I still think that having them connected is 'better' as you have the advantage that should you have a problem at altitude, you can exit immediately, and with all 4 points attached. I would'nt like to be trying to connect the student in a rapidly descending aircraft full of panicking people At the end of the day, i'm happy with the way us 'backwards' brits do things Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tinay 0 #55 December 20, 2007 Hairymango. Your statement that the BPA is backward, was just that! You gave no reason. You sound like some five year kid; "I hate you,'cause!". If you are going to says such things, at least try to qualify them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #56 December 22, 2007 IT TAKES LONGER TO UNHOOK AND PUT ON A SEATBELT THAN IT DOES TO HOOK-UP. First....I have the lowers on put not tight at 2000'. If there is a problem...I can have the top hooks on and lowers tightened by the time everyone else gets their shit together and gets out of the plane. I have had to do it and I have done it. If a crash is inevitable (at an altitude lower than you would exit) you aren't going to have time to unhook and put a seatbelt on. Things are happening too fast....I have seen it and have talked to people that have been in the situation. GIVE ME A GOOD REASON TO BE HOOKED UP BEFORE YOU ARE READY TO EXIT. Just b/c BPA says its ok doesn't mean anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tinay 0 #57 December 22, 2007 This post is getting boring now. It's obvious that opinions are not going to be changed! If you don't want to hook up before take-off, better not do Tandems in the UK! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
camamel 0 #58 December 22, 2007 After reading all your post here my only answer is : I don't think you have enough understanding or judgment to be an instructor. Even in front of your computer you can't decide what is good from what is wrong even after we explain it to you more then a few times! On big airline companys, there is a crash on maybe less than 1 million take off and landing, but on each and every flight the crew show all the passengers the emergency exit and procedures....ALL THE TIME. If you don't understand thoses thinks, and it is obvious you don't, please don't try to take care of somebody else in our sport. When I took my Tandem Master Examiner,back in 1991 at Relative WorkShop in Florida, T.K.Donle told me while giving me my new rating: Richard ...please don't make any KILLERS. As an instructor we are responsible for our student,or passenger, from take off to landing what ever can happen. Emergency are rare...but real.We and our customers should be prepare for it. Where did you took your instructor rating? From who? RichardWhen you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #59 December 23, 2007 Hee! Hee! That reminds me of a time we were napping - on the way to altitude - in a Cessna 205, when the engine missed a beat. The pilot said that all she heard was "CLICK! CLICK! CLICK!." It was not even a conscious effort, but I woke up with all the hooks connected! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairymango 0 #60 December 23, 2007 opinions do change when events happen and make us think about what was once safe in a different light (the events most people on this post are talking about)...................but guess you cant teach some old dogs new tricks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tinay 0 #61 December 23, 2007 Who are you calling a dog? I used to think like you, then I changed my mind after thinking of the most likely senarios and a bit of history! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairymango 0 #62 December 24, 2007 hahah Im not calling you a dog , just a figure of speak. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #63 December 25, 2007 Quote That reminds me of a time we were napping - on the way to altitude - in a Cessna 205 You are not supposed to say things like that here Rob. This is a public forum. Larger Than Life Real Hero Tandem Instructor do not nap on the way to altitude. Never have, never will. They meditate. "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #64 December 25, 2007 Dude, that was priceless. Meditate (must remember). Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
