AFFI's Would you be pissed if...

[GravityGirl 0]

Actually Raff, I think you're missing my point here.

I asked because, I'm wondering if I am being too picky or paranoid about another JM dumping a student unannounced, and I wondered if it was even worth bringing up.

I think you know me well enough to know that I'm not a shit stirrer. In fact, I'm more of the "Can't we all just get alone" type.

Maybe I should have just PM'ed a few AFF-Is. That's a good point.

But to be honest, I doubt if anyone concerned reads these forums, and I doubt anyone reading these forums gives a shit who the other JM is. She is a great teacher. I've just never flown with her before.

And it's not too late. I will chat with her. If we're gonna fly as a team, I want to be on the same page.

Thanks for the input.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[natef 0]

I probably dumped a student a little high last weekend because of some confusion between JM's. I had to be honest with the student and let him know he didn't do anything wrong, I was worried about some other stuff.

But twice is too much. Now you're just being a huge dick.

[riggerbrady 0]

I would be pissed...the SOP is that the student should only be assisted if there is no indication of them initiating pull procedures by there designated alt. It sounds to me that the main side AffI was experienced(that seems rookie). It is all about reading the student and pulling for them only if they are below their hard deck.

I question the ability of the AFFI in a student going low situation. I sure hope that the AFFI is not afraid of going low with a student. Its not a matter of IF but WHEN.

this would bring up a new question for all you AFF-I's out there.. what is your hard deck?.. I mean really think about this... I didnt have a student go low on me until I had about 200 AFF's.. It was sobering. I re-evaluated my safety protocol after that jump and it has saved my students ass as well as mine.

[mattaman 0]

Just a couple of sig's on lvl 1's, it overwhelms them, probably why they weren't on time with pulling. Second, you need to address this somewhere with her or a more experienced instructor at the dz. not just for student progression, but to contribute to your own safety, your life is worth this hard but necessary conversation, possibly confrontation, if you don't get what you need, you need to go somewhere else cause its not safe enough. You have no idea how many other bags of suck ass tricks a bad instructor will throw your way as the world turns, good luck

Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

[Deuce 1]

Bah, it's just that Southern California Hate.

Me and Gumby had the worst level one I have ever heard about and it taught me a great lesson.

If they complete the dive flow on a level one the only signal I'm going to give them is a relax, then a check alti, and then a pull. Most all of them are so overloaded that more than that is just an invitation for them to take you for a ride.

If I'm reserve side I try not to give any hand signals, I figure that's why the main side is making the big bucks, and I'm just there to stabilize the freefall. I'm always real surprised when either a main or reserve side doesn't ask for my feelings about the dive.

As for diplomacy, it's not my strong suit (either), I'd probably just ask that next time I'd appreciate some indication that the student was going to be deployed.

And yeah, like you I like to give the student every chance to succeed, and I get dissapointed when they get cheated out of those chances.

Miss you guys, hope all is well!

[riggerrob 558]

Gravity girl,

You and I are on the same wavelength.
We both hate it when other instructors change the program, but do not have the courtesy to tell us.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

...I'm wondering if I am being too picky or paranoid about another JM dumping a student unannounced...

GGirl.. Et All - AFFIs,

Fair warning, I'm not an AFFI... but, is there supposed to be a "signal" for main side or reserve side, for that matter, to let the other jumpmaster know, "I'm going to dump the student's main!" ????? I realize this would be "nice" and a "good thing", but circumstances may not always (i.e. TIME) may not always allow for that. Anyway, not sure if it applies here.

Other then it happened again on the next dive... Seems maybe there's nothing more here then the other jumpmaster made a decission you didn't like?

Why don't you go main side next time?

Quote

...The only unstability I saw was from his reactions to the quick signal changes. I mean, you can't just throw a hips down and follow it up with a legs out and an alti check, and then back to hips down...

choosing my words carefully here... ... but if y'all hadn't had the student "trimmed out" by the bottom of the skydive, was the top part in any way an AFF that was making y'all "work" for your money? I mean, all of us have seen AFF Level 1s that went so well we were all thinking, "Hey! That's easy!!!"... but on the other hand, we've seen ones that look like the student is wrestling with a greased pig in free fall and the AFF JMs are working their asses off and you'd wonder why they just didn't dump the student out and talk about it on the ground... err... so I wonder, what was going on during the top half of the jump that may have made the JM on the main-side in question be a bit more "anxious" to see the student pull or pull them themselves? Could this be a factor??




Sorry, GGirl, thought of another question... did you (or could you) ask the other JM in question under what circumstances they would have let the student pull, or attempt to pull, assist, etc. rather then just dump them??

[rmarshall234 13]

I can relate to much of what Deuce has posted here. Especially, the part about minimizing the signals on a Level I. And I would add, the most important signal (I think) we have is the thumbs up. Students are dealing with two types of fear; fear for their safety and performance anxiety. If we can let them know that "they are not doing that bad" it can reap huge benefits in getting them to relax and all the positive stuff that follows. If their hips are down, legs in a reasonable position and somewhat aware, I'm looking for every opportunity to give that lev I student a thumbs up.

[Deuce 1]

Well, you've brought up another issue about working with other jumpmasters on two jumpmaster AFF levels, and that is communication.

I've done some AFF with GG, and her ground communication is especially good. Very thorough about "what I plan to do if this happens..,". That's very important, and another very important thing is clear goggles so the instructors can communicate via eye contact. I get really frustrated with instructors that wear dark glasses. Like on a level three when we let the student go, we usually float up over the back a little to make eye contact and the main side will indicate everything is OK via eye contact and a nod, and the reserve side lets go. Likewise we can float up and give a nice panicky eye contact that communicates "do NOT let this knucklehead go!".

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Hey Bonnie:

I would not be pissed necessarily, I would just find out what happened. Perhaps the other instructor's altimeter was set differently, or if the instructor is new and is told pull time is 5,500, he/she may be taking it too literally and maybe let them know that the student really has till 5K.

Sometimes it is just a matter of simple communication. Now if you have already nicely communicated about the range (most AFF Is have a range of "pull time"). Our students would lock on at 7, wave at 6 and pull. I would always give them till 5K unless they really sucked and I wanted the skydive to be over.

That is the other thing. Maybe there was something that the other instructor was uncomfortable with on the skydive. I have deployed students at high altitudes when I felt it was the best decision for whatever reason (gear issue, long spot, etc.)

I hope you can communicate with your other instructor. After all, no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes now and then. I think it is important for morale to develop an environment where you can just talk to a person and communicate what is going on.

Good luck.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[FlyboySMB 0]

I didn't read many of the other replies, so as to not get biased.... so here are my 2 cents.

It would totally depend on the prior 45 seconds (specifically the prior 5-10 seconds) and the student. Was the student aware of altitude, did he/she know it was pull time, how did the dive from exit to 6K go? If the student was mentally in the dive from the get go and aware of pull time, then pulling at 5.5K may be pre-mature. If the student was brain locked then I would not have any problem with a main side pull. Hard to tell without more detail. For sure I have seen JMs, for whatever reason, pull for the student when it was not needed. Also, given the fact that a small percentage of Level 1s make a second jump, being conservative at pull time may not be such a bad idea.

Not sure what you would do differently to avoid being kicked, that would not take you out of your reserve side position.. That's just a hazard of reserve side.

Just my 2-cents.....
Steve

[GravityGirl 0]

>>Not sure what you would do differently to avoid being kicked, that would not take you out of your reserve side position.. That's just a hazard of reserve side<<

At pull time, I hunker down during the toss and upon extraction, I position my head/face behind the rear of the leg. That way I can maintain a good grip and protect my face. Defensive flying....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!