Earn the release

[mattaman 0]

aff i's
Wondering what your apinions are on releasing students who are stable but showing asymetry and some instability on release dives. I have heard been exposed to attitudes and find myself between them, based on student competency.
1) you have to earn the release by showing stability and competency.
2) Release the student and allow them to fly, have more faith in them then they have in themselves, let em walk.

If you release them when they were not stable and symetrical, and they tumble and have an accident, would you say they were not stable when you were debriefed on the ground after an accident?

Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

For me, the decision to release, when stability is "borderline" is dependant upon which axis they are flailing. If they are head-high and pitching fore/aft, then I am not about to let them go. If they feel like they might have a built-in turn, then I will probably give them a corrective signal, let them go, and let them "feel" that they are asymetrical. Holding a guy like that straight in the sky, he isn't going to get the feedback he needs through visuals in order to decide that "oh, I ought to stop this turn". I hope that makes sense. I would much rather put a trailer hitch on a spinning student than have to dive for a flipping one.

Chuck

[Schoenauer 0]

I subscribe to both methods why should I go through life with a one tracked mind I need to be flexible because my students are variable in ability.

1) Show me a good body position respond to all my hands signals and I’ll let go.

2) I have jumped with you before I know your tendency and so do you, fix them if they are not quite right.

You will never know if a student is truly stabile or capable of maintaining stability unless you let go. Remember to use hand signals to fix their body position and when it looks right and the tension feels right gradually let go.

Memento Mori

[icevideot 0]

I agree that if I can get the pressure to a reasonable level with hand signals I want to give them the opportunity to know they are going to turn. After that I redock after 1 revolution (spirited students may turn farther) and give hand signals to correct them and a big smile before I release again. In one of my early release dives I spent so long trying to correct the student that I was close enough to pull time to be nervous about releasing. He didn't really get his money's worth on that one but he was in his 70's so I had more concerns than usual. Now I like to give them the chance to learn up high. Of course I am still learning what students can do on a regular basis.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Yep: Frankly I don't release em unless they are stable. Am I going to say that it never happened that they looked stable and as soon as I released them it all went to hell? Nope. But I used to be very anxious on Level 3 release dives. Especially on TAF (single JM Level 3) or main side with the particularly hairy students.

I think release dives for me are sort of a here and now type thing. How does the student appear? Relaxed? Head up, arched, relatively stable? Hell, let em fly. Are they conscious? Does it look like they are registering altitude? I have purposely released an unstable student on one occassion I recall. It was his 6th Level 3 and he kept making the same mistake. Everything else was spot on but his inability to hold heading. I finally just said you know what? I'm letting go and you have about 6 thousand feet to figure it out. As soon as we practically left the airplane he was released. He started to do his usual turn, I flew up in front of him and stuck my tongue out at him and gave him a legs out and relax sign with a smile and he stopped. We looked at each other both with giant smiles when he corrected the problem himself and he got a double thumbs up too! It was a great skydive and then no problems after that.

Some things come from reading my student. There are those I knew who were not ready and so I did not release them. There were those who I knew were ready so I did. And there were those who were not ready and I released the hell out of them and smiled as I let em go Why? Because that is what THEY needed. Some of em will hang on to you forever if they could when they know deep down they really want to fly on their own. I believe there is a lot of psychology involved with release dives more than any other. Some want it, some are ready, some need motivation, some need pure help. It is our jobs to try and recognize which ones fit into which categories.

If I release one and it all goes to hell, I am going to try and remember what I saw and how it happened at the same time I correct it and then I will definitely note it in the debrief. After all, it is how we all learn.

I am not a perfect instructor ... I had one guy on a single AFF JM that became unstable everytime he looked under his arm at me to check in. He would initiate a barrel role and become unstable. I had another gal who looked stable every time she completed her check ins. As soon as I released her, she spun to the left. She appeared to be in perfect body position and relaxed with alti awareness. It turned out during one of our many debriefs I find out she was hit by a car and her left hip was slightly displaced which was causing her to turn to the left. This was not visible from a main side single JM perspective and it wasn't until many Level 3s, debriefs and Scott shooting video that we were able to identify the problem and then be able to correct it.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[Erroll 49]

Quote

If I release one and it all goes to hell, I am going to try and remember what I saw and how it happened

Do you actively let the student know that he has been released? I'm thinking it could be somewhat like teaching my kid to ride a bicycle. Initially, when I let go of the bike without him knowing, he was fine, but the moment he realised he was on his own he would lose his balance and crash.

I remember my own AFF release jump well and I had no idea that I had been released until the mainside flew in front of my face and gave me a thumbs up. (I did have the benefit of having done up to 10 seconds freefall on S/L progression before starting AFF and as a result I was nice and stable before and after the release.)

[bigdad510 1]

I'm not on instructor, but I want to make a comment on this one. I agree that it is very hard for a JM to see when hips are out of place. It seems to happen a lot with students and it takes forever to get recognized. I had the same problem as a student and spent about 4 jumps until someone figures out my hips were off-center.

Brad

[AFFI 0]

There have been a lot of good comments here concerning this topic, I don’t have much to add to the in air decision making process that hasn’t already been covered.

Learning when to release has some widespread philosophies and techniques and it is something an AFFI will become more confident in as experience is gained.

That being said:
There will be a time when a released out of control student will not be able to be gotten to by the Instructor. It is when those occurrences happen that the only thing standing between the student and the ground is the training they received on the ground during the preparation for the skydive. In my limited experience I have found that for me, I will have more confidence at release time with a well trained student and their ability to take care of themselves should the situation arise that I cannot “make the save”.

So for me, it all boils down to ground training, the rest will fall into place.

Quote

If you release them when they were not stable and symetrical, and they tumble and have an accident, would you say they were not stable when you were debriefed on the ground after an accident?

In the situation where they have not earned the release, simply don't release them...
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Squeak 17]

Quote

Quote

If I release one and it all goes to hell, I am going to try and remember what I saw and how it happened

Do you actively let the student know that he has been released? I'm thinking it could be somewhat like teaching my kid to ride a bicycle. Initially, when I let go of the bike without him knowing, he was fine, but the moment he realised he was on his own he would lose his balance and crash.

I remember my own AFF release jump well and I had no idea that I had been released until the mainside flew in front of my face and gave me a thumbs up. (I did have the benefit of having done up to 10 seconds freefall on S/L progression before starting AFF and as a result I was nice and stable before and after the release.)

Same here but when i relised that both JMs had released, i got unstable and deployed straight away (slight panic) fortunatly I was near dump height anyways

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[raff 4]

I have seen the damnedest positions fly perfectly stable and the most perfect-looking positions spin like a Waring Blender. The latter is unually a function a stiffness, and the former of relaxation.

I'll take the smiling, relaxed, but perhaps not-so-perfect position anytime vs. the well-arched, but gritted teeth and scared to death when deciding on a release. The relaxed person needs to feel what is going on without being in the grip of JMs before he/she will really "get it."

If you leave the plane without a parachute, you will be fine for the rest of your life.