world wide poll: do instructors overload their reserves

[darnknit 0]

i have never overloaded my reserve as an instructor.(although i have done so before i got my ratings)

i will not do so on my sport rig, or any tandem rig i use. how bout the rest of you?

pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

[Tonto 1]

I voted "Never"

I jump a PD-126 which is TSO'd to a max of 254lbs. I weigh a little over 200 kitted up. I'm loading to around 1.6 and jump at a hot, high altitude (5000ftAMSL) DZ.

I have 18 reserve rides.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/reserve.asp for more info on PD reserves.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[bmcd308 0]

Do you mean mfg. recommended max or TSO limit?

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www.jumpelvis.com

[BIGUN 1,060]

Rig 1: Raven 249 -M Nope
Rig 2; PD 281 Nope (Demo Rig)
Rig 3: Smart 190 I'm one pound under MFG recommended max geared up @ MSL.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[diablopilot 2]

There is a big difference between recommended max and TSO max.

Unfortunately some less knowlagables have infuenced newer jumpers into believing they will be ok going by the TSO max.

Now I know you're capable of handling that reserve Tonto, BUT, it should be pointed out just because the label says "good to 254lbs" doesn't mean that's what people should be doing.

I am well over the max recommended "Expert" loading for my PDR126 reserves, and I do not recommend anyone load this highly.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Tonto 1]

Quote

There is a big difference between recommended max and TSO max.

While that may be true, the Oxford dictionary gives only one definition for the word "Maximum" and that is "Greatest amount possible." Since I and many others have exceeded the recomended max quite comfortably, I can only conclude that the recomended max is incorrect, or is aimed at some base/conservative market demographic for sound and responsible reasons.

The origional poster used the term "Overload". Oxford defines "Overload" as "put too great a load on or in". Since I've survived all my reserve rides without injury, I must again conclude that the term refers to the weight exceeding the TSO max, thus my vote for not having overloaded my reserve.

Of course, there are those who use an AAD who (I expect) desire to land without (further) injury when they are perhaps unconcious. I do find it somewhat puzzeling when I see these people loading their reserves at anything over 1.0 lbs per sq ft. Since I have no AAD in either of my rigs, I've determined that remaining consious is a prereqisite to surviving the skydive.

Doubtless you have caught me in a mood when bellicosity appeals, and so I've chosen to base my argument on semantic definitions. I'm always surprised, however, in a society where some drive drunk or fuck strangers without a condom, that an issue such as this is even raised. How many incidents are you aware of resulting in injury as the result of a properly used "overloaded" reserve that was within the TSO max?

I cannot recall one. A search of the incidents forum for the word "Overload" produces 33 posts from a total of 28142 for a result of 0,1%. A brief perusal of the thread titles indicates one reserve failure, ironicly at the DZ I jump at. I know overloading was not the issue in this incident.

This is the old "Size vs Technique" arguement, except we're not talking about cocks, or guns, or martial artists. The truth is, a good big one will always whip a good little one. If a jumper has deliberatly chosen a heavily loaded reserve, the responsibility is clearly theirs when it comes to landing it safely.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[diablopilot 2]

As someone who has both test flow and flown reserves in real scenarios, I can tell you this: with loadings of greater than about 1.4 to 1.5 on any low porosity, 7 cell reserve on the market, you need to be at the top of your game to land it safely.



As someone who has has sold gear for 5 years I can tell you this: way to many jumpers selecting gear for the first time seem to not understand that not only should a reserve wingloading be selected by skill, but also by the fact that it's an unfamiliar canopy in a stressful situation usually. WAY to many jumpers have come to me and wanted a reserve smaller than they should have had because some ill informed person had told them that the "Max" weight was 254 without explaining wingloading. Too many jumpers seem to think their reserve is some sort of magic voodoo charmed canopy that will set them down tip toe safe in their mothers arms.


BTW by the definition of "overload" you used there are probably not more than 1% of jumpers that do.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Tonto 1]

You're right.

All I'm saying is that those that choose should choose what they can handle. I think I've done that. In fact, in recent years, I've gone up in reserve size.

Many of today's jumpers are completely unfamiliar with low perocity 7 cells or even 7 cells in general. I have about 700 dives on low perocity 7 cell and 5 cell canopies, and a further 800+ on ZP 7 cell canopies. Although currency is important, I think that I have sufficient base experience to allow a safe landing on my reserve.

I agree completly that many, many jumpers do not consider that they will in all probability be lower than they intended to be when their reserve opens, under a canopy which cannot match the glide ratio or the flare performance of their regular main, and that they may be required to land that canopy out or while injured, or both. Placing the responsibility for that outcome on anyone other than the person using the reserve seems obtuse. It is the jumpers responsibility to survive the skydive. Sometimes the outcome of a skydive is determined years before the jump takes place. We should all be mindfull of that fact.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[bob.dino 0]

Quote

... seem to not understand that not only should a reserve wingloading be selected by skill, but also by the fact that it's an unfamiliar canopy in a stressful situation usually ... Too many jumpers seem to think their reserve is some sort of magic voodoo charmed canopy that will set them down tip toe safe in their mothers arms.

The APF produced a safety poster (pdf) on this theme.

[Schoenauer 0]

My reserve is a PDR-143 and my exit weight is between Expert and Max, closer to the Max.

I have jumped over the 500lbs limit for Strong tandems a few time, I don’t like it, but it happens once and while.

Jumping my sport rig heavy I know what I am getting into and I except the risks. As for over loading the tandem, well the student doesn’t know the risks and that is what bothers me.

Memento Mori

[livendive 8]

Quote

How many incidents are you aware of resulting in injury as the result of a properly used "overloaded" reserve that was within the TSO max?

I cannot recall one. A search of the incidents forum for the word "Overload" produces 33 posts from a total of 28142 for a result of 0,1%. A brief perusal of the thread titles indicates one reserve failure, ironicly at the DZ I jump at. I know overloading was not the issue in this incident.

There was one that did involve overloading in Colorado in '99. A Raven I with a placarded max exit weight of 185 and an actual exit weight of 285. Terminal reserve deployment at ~9000 MSL broke a couple lines and resulted in a fatally hard landing.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Tonto 1]

Quote

Quote

How many incidents are you aware of resulting in injury as the result of a properly used "overloaded" reserve that was within the TSO max?

I cannot recall one. A search of the incidents forum for the word "Overload" produces 33 posts from a total of 28142 for a result of 0,1%. A brief perusal of the thread titles indicates one reserve failure, ironicly at the DZ I jump at. I know overloading was not the issue in this incident.

There was one that did involve overloading in Colorado in '99. A Raven I with a placarded max exit weight of 185 and an actual exit weight of 285. Terminal reserve deployment at ~9000 MSL broke a couple lines and resulted in a fatally hard landing.

Blues,
Dave

Please read my post again, including the section in bold.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[livendive 8]

Quote

Quote

Quote

How many incidents are you aware of resulting in injury as the result of a properly used "overloaded" reserve that was within the TSO max?

I cannot recall one. A search of the incidents forum for the word "Overload" produces 33 posts from a total of 28142 for a result of 0,1%. A brief perusal of the thread titles indicates one reserve failure, ironicly at the DZ I jump at. I know overloading was not the issue in this incident.

There was one that did involve overloading in Colorado in '99. A Raven I with a placarded max exit weight of 185 and an actual exit weight of 285. Terminal reserve deployment at ~9000 MSL broke a couple lines and resulted in a fatally hard landing.

Please read my post again, including the section in bold.

Please read my post again, including the section in bold.

I specifically said that it *did* involve overloading because I knew it fell outside the bounds of what you were asking, but it also seemed related enough to post.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Tonto 1]

So.

Q. Red or Blue?

A. Green.

Right...

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[livendive 8]

Quote

So.

Q. Red or Blue?

A. Green.

Right...

t

My bad. I guess an overloaded reserve incident shouldn't actually be mentioned in this thread.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billeisele 122]

what the heck, load it (forget semantics) all you want but just don't ask for a refund when the outcome is less than desired

seen 2 many folks that have tried to land a small reserve off the DZ in a tight spot, not pretty

for me the choice is simple, fun main canopy, conservative on the reserve

to each his/her own

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[AndyMan 7]

The only PD reserve I would not overload is the 281.

I am not willing to jump a 281 square foot reserve, so I regularly overload my PDR143, but not by much.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Bowie 0]

I just been so lucky to use a pd 113 for a few jumps (thanks to Jesper from PD for having such a large amount of demo canopies here in Europe) and found that canopy good enough for me in my new rig. But i am glad i tested it before being forced to use one.
Am currently having a 143 in my rig but have still never used my reserve on 1600 jumps.

Bowie

Bo Wienberg

vimeo.com/bowienberg

[billvon 2,406]

>the Oxford dictionary gives only one definition for the
>word "Maximum" and that is "Greatest amount possible."

Well, by the literal definition, then, the maximum is considerably over 254 lbs - since reserves are tested well over their rated weights, and they must pass those tests to get the TSO certification.

[peckerhead 0]

Never, all three of my reserves are bigger than my 3 mains.

Diablo 135/smart 160
Hornet 135/smart 160
Lightning 143/PDR 160