Student Canopies?

[Kimblair13 0]

Just curious as to what type of mains DZ's out there have for student rigs. DZ I'm at has Lazers, Navigators, Triathalons, Sabre 2 and some other randoms. I'm talkin stuff sized 220-300 sq. ft. Just curious. What others do people have or think would be good?

[larsrulz 0]

230 and 290 skymasters.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[dragon2 0]

230, 280 skymaster, manta 288, zp.exe 235, I think we have other zp.exe sizes.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[tdog 0]

Spectre 230 is about as small as they get... Maybe a Spectre 190 too in a rental rig not for students...

The rest are Navigators and Silhouettes...

[USPA 0]

I don't think we have any manta's anymore, but I could be wrong (haven't checked in a while). Zp.exe's are replacing the skymasters, which have become unavaible.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[Andrewwhyte 1]

The Skymaster has been replaced with the SOLO.

[USPA 0]

Yeah, but at 30-40 rigs, cost is also an issue. The Solo is way more expensive then the skymaster. So we started a to compare student canopies again. (allot of them incl. sabre/ navigator/ solo/ pilot etc etc etc). Comparing everything the zp.exe came out on top this time. (Don't ask about details, I wasn't involved this time.. :) )

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[AggieDave 6]

Navigators 200-300sq ft for AFF students, depending on the coach student they might work down to our Sabre2 fleet. Others will stay on the Navigators.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[matthewcline 0]

Our Team and FJC use the Star Trak series.
we aren't the only DZ as far as I know.

We do it since the Star Trak's doen't have the huge glide a hybred 9 cell would have. but will land just fine even with a botched flare.

This keeps the students closer to the landing area. Some times the radio dies or if they are on thier own they may need to be "limited" in how far they can get away.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

We do it since the Star Trak's doen't have the huge glide a hybred 9 cell would have. but will land just fine even with a botched flare.

This keeps the students closer to the landing area.

How does a canopy that flies very different from a typical modern canopy that a jumper will buy after getting their A-license help prepare that jumper for that transition?

That's what I like about the Navigators, it flies very similar to many modern canopies, but is still very forgiving with botched flares, etc. That's also why many students are transitioned to Sabre2s at an appropiate wingloading around jump 15 or so (depends on the student), to help prepare them for the "real world" of skydiving but in more of a controlled manner (wingloading and constant instruction).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[matthewcline 0]

Our students get Star Traks.

We are a Military Demo Team

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Our students get Star TraksWink.

We are a Military Demo Team

Ahhh...ok. Sorry I was uninformed in that regard.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[matthewcline 0]

I was kind of vague (accept for the avatar).
We do not let our team members use any thing but the big 7 cell till they have the PRO rating. Then as a reward they get to work thier way through the 9 cell ZP's we have.

Or of they become the video dude they get to learn about the ZP before they make the camera jumps.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[bch7773 0]

We primarily use Navagator 260s, which is a step up from our old Manta 288s

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Liemberg 0]

Quote

How does a canopy that flies very different from a typical modern canopy that a jumper will buy after getting their A-license help prepare that jumper for that transition?

It doesn't, but maybe this transition is not the first and only concern...
At many places introductory static line courses still attract many students. Often these students (for various reasons) never get to the point where the transition after their A-licence becomes a factor.
If that is the case. there is not much point in training them with 'smallish' wingloads, flat glides, deep penetration, etcetera.
Having most (if not all) of them walk away unscathered during jump one, two and three may be the best possible outcome one can hope for...
Whatever the manufacturers tell me in their advertisement, my feeling still is that the better performing canopies are also the ones that can bite you...

Everybody who is jumping Velocity / Stiletto / Nitro etcetera at my place started out on Manta or Skymaster and sometimes with a ridiculously low wingload. They couldn't do with those 'boats' what they are doing now on every landing.

But for each of these former students of mine there are at least 10 former students that also started out on Manta's and Skymasters, had a couple of days of great fun in which they made a couple of static line jumps in their beginners course and then they ran out of money or decided to spend it on something else...
So in the long run it may be a better idea to concentrate on good transition courses after 15 to 25 jumps and keep the students under 'glorified rounds'...

Does this limit the students? Yes, especially when the student is a lightweight - as soon as there is a litle wind they are grounded,

But you also have to ask yourself what you want above your students head when - on jump 2 - he is right above the local village at 500 feet trying to decide which small backyard to aim for...

Sooo ... I use Manta's and Skymasters and a few transition-rigs (Raven3, PD 210, ZP.EXE 190 and 170..)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[AndyMan 7]

Chicagoland has an interesting mix.


280, 240, 220, and 200 navigators.

Lastly, 188 and 168 Pilots.

Also tossed into the mix (and being phazed out) is a Triathlon 170 and a Chute Shop ZP 235.

What is good? A good mix. You want enough different sizes to support a wide range of students. You want ones big enough for a first-jump, and smaller ones so that they can approach a 1:1 wingloading in their later jumps. You also want a range of container sizes to fit everyone from the 230 pound guys to the 100 pound girls.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[packerboy 3]

We have a bunch of Manta's, Sabre 230, and Sabre 190.

The Sabre 230 is an asshole though. It always opens, but sometimes a little on the quick side.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[riggerrob 558]

one Goliath 340
Skymaster 290s
ZP Manta 290s
F-111 Manta 290s
a Solo 270
a pair of Skymaster 230s
4 Hornet 190s
and sometimes a Sabre 170.

The sole Goliath is only worn by students weighing more than 220 pounds, and rarely at that.
Most first jump students wear 290s.
The Skymaster 230s are introduced near the end of the PFF program, after students have demonstrated several good landings under 290s. Sometimes we hang small women (less than 130 pounds) under Skymaster 230s for their first jump.
Hornet 190s are strictly rental rigs for PFF graduates or A Certificate holders.
Every time a student switches to a smaller canopy, they get briefed by an instructor.
Aerodyne reps assure us that Solo 270s have the same amount of fabric as Skymaster 190s due to different measuring methods.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Who makes the zp.exe?

[packerboy 3]

I thought Manta was only available in 288's. I guess I was misinformed.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[riggerrob 558]

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I thought Manta was only available in 288's. I guess I was misinformed.

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Short history lesson: the first (circa 1982) student canopy designed by Mike Furry was the LR 288, (basically a 7-cell Pegasus 220 with two extra cells). Initially it was only intended for a West German Army HAHO contract.
During early production, they were amazed at the LR-288's huge "sweet spot" for flaring.
About the same time, the supply of military surplus round canopies dried up, so civilian skydiving schools were forced to chose between expensive new civilian round canopies or expensive new Mantas for students.
Django got sued out of business (for patent infringement) circa 1983, but promptly re-opened as Glide Path. GPI soon introduced the Manta 288 as a slightly modified LR 288 with small line attachment flares (to dodge the patent).
Somewhere in the 1990s, they changed the designation to Manta 290, perhaps when GPI folded and promptly re-opened as Flight Concepts circa 1994.
We have several (1996 vintage) student canopies with "Manta 290" on their data panels.
As for the difference between 288 and 290, it depends whether Maria sewed it before or after her morning coffee.
Hee!
Hee!
And remember that every canopy manufacturer uses a different measuring method.
Hee!
Hee!