Deuce 1 #1 July 10, 2005 Today I get what is getting to be the usual 180 or 360 on opening but this one keeps going like a brake fire. I am committed to having nobody ever, EVER, question one of my chops. When JP chops a canopy it should probably be cast into a lake of fire and excommunicated from the tandem realm. So,while I'm spinning gently I pull the brakes clear and pump them. A wierd thing happens. The right brake just comes out and all the line slithers through the stainless ring and is now streaming behind me, and I see broken line above the slider. Huh. Um. Pumping the brake lines won't reattach them. I can't do turns, it occurrs to me that some genius like Bill Booth could do some McGuyver shit with the secondaries, but I'm just a short-bus ex-cop with really limitied skills. I tell dude (who is a really big young smart kid) to stay still. When he says "Whaaaaaat!" I chop right and left and he is perfect. Just stays arched and we do the 30 minute return to terminal while the reserve deploys. A really good job by the passenger. The brake line blew. Any suggestions other than chopping? We had plenty of height, but I am getting a little wound about three chops in three weeks.. Winds were 25 to 30 (not unusual for Byron) Could I have landed this thing on the secondaries? Mr. Booth, in particular, when the primary toggle fails, is chopping the best choice? Peace out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miami 0 #2 July 10, 2005 Did you try to fly/flare with the rears? That could have been a possibility but I would only consider something like that if I had a little passenger on my chest. If you've ever tried to flare with the secondaries only you'll find they don't do much by themselves... Hope this helps...Miami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #3 July 10, 2005 QuoteCould I have landed this thing on the secondaries? HELL YES! I have did it quite a few times. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #4 July 10, 2005 Judging by the dirty fur on your steering lines, they were due for a bath ... er ... replacement. Suspension lines are not supposed to get that furry. Pressure your school rigger to replace line kits every 300-350 jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #5 July 10, 2005 Quote QuoteCould I have landed this thing on the secondaries? HELL YES! I have did it quite a few times. Be safe. Ed Not being sarcastic, Ed, but you blow steering lines a lot? I can land my sport rig on the rears I had just never discussed with another tandem master landing with a blown main toggle. With the ground winds we were dealing with I am still sticking with my choice to chop it, but I'm not the only instructor who has benefited from reading about a type of malfunction that hasn't happened at their DZ. With the right toggle off and the left unstowed but attached, there was also a left turn that I would have had to fight all the way down, and maybe there were other broken lines I couldn't see above the slider. (there weren't) Anyhow, thought I'd share and maybe we could all learn a little more. Later on yesterday I had a really pudgy girl pass out on my that I had to land unconscious, but that's another story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver30960 0 #6 July 10, 2005 First, to anyone who would question your act of going to the reserve in ANY situation, tell them to get fuckin' BENT. You are the pilot in command of that tandem, you are the one in the best position to make that call, end of discussion. As far as landing on the rears, that would probably be something I (speaking from my woefully low experience level of ~300 tandems) would evaluate on a case by case basis. If the canopy is flying straight and level, you'll have a little time to think about it (unlike highspeed malfies, where you want to have a decision made beforehand). Sounded like your student was heads-up, and built right. If I felt I could get some flare from the risers, and he could get his legs in position for a slider, then maybe I'd give it a shot. If the student was that pudgy lady you had later in the day, she was freakin' out, and couldn't get her legs up higher than her ankles, then maybe I'd go for Plan B. I too would love to hear from Mr. Booth and anyone with super-lotsa tandems (hell, for that matter, from any TI from any level of experience...) But it all comes back to my first statement: it's your call. I'll support you in whatever you would decide... Elvisio "that's my next student? Didn't you tell her 'one at a time'?" Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #7 July 10, 2005 JP, I'm not a TI/TM so I probably shouldn't post here but...I'm also stupid, so I will. obviously you did the right thing. the student landed safely, ( I am assuming) he had a good time and the experience is one he'll never forget. I wonder how hard of a time you would have trying to land with rear risers on that HUGE-ass canopy if you couldn't get the student to help you pull. anyway, glad the jump was a successMy photos My Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #8 July 11, 2005 Sorry you had the problem. Congratulations on landing safely. Before drogues, I broke two lower steering lines. I landed both by giving the good toggle to the student and matching his flare (on my command) with both hands, on the opposite rear riser. I both cases, the student was light and "heads up", and the winds high. If the student had been heavy, or the winds light, I probably would have chopped. Since drogues, I have not had another steering system failure. Because each case is different, it is up to the individual tandem instructor to decide what to do. I don't know which canopy you were jumping, or any other particulars, so I have to assume you did the right thing. One thing I did notice was that the broken steering system had a lot of wear on it. Steering lines take more wear than any other lines, and therefore need to be replaced often. You will notice that on our tandem reserves, all four of the steering lines are continuous to the brake setting. That way, if you lose one steering line on opening, the other three are still functional. If we had a lot of problems with sreering line breakage, we would make the mains the same way. We just don't have a lot of steering system breaks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #9 July 11, 2005 Eddy, you have a few thousand more jumps than JP. He's a new TM. JP. If you're walking and talking' you did the right thing. More importantly, your student is safe and sound. And you have another cool entry in your log book. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #10 July 11, 2005 QuoteNot being sarcastic, Ed, but you blow steering lines a lot? I wasn't being sarcastic either. I have done many tandems at various DZ's JP. Some tend to poorly maintain line sets on the rigs they own unfortunatly, but broken steering lines aren't that common. One time while still green in doing tandems, I let the student attempt to help flare, which was suggested by the DZO that did maybe 5 tandems a year if that, this resulted in the students arms locked ridged above his head gripping the toggles with all his might, which resulted in me not being able to pull the toggles from his hands and only flaring with the secondary set. The day was windy and the landing was stand up thankfully. Since them I never let the students flare just incase. The other 2 times, one of the the right steering lines broke from a hard opening, and the other was a canopy was packed with a half hitch around the riser, dont ask how it was packed that way , and there wasnt any chance of undoing it under canopy. In all cases I evaluated the weight of the student, the winds on the ground, and the type of terrain I was landing on, before I decided to land with the secondary toggles. If the terrain was rough, the students weight was too heavy, or there was no wind, I too would have chosen to cut it away and take my chances on a reserve. Dont assume, as Bonnie may have, that I was telling you that you did the wrong thing. You asked "could I have", and thats what I answered. You landed yourself and your student safely, so I guess you got something right, but knowing all your options when you step out of that plane is always your best bet for survival. Be safe! Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #11 July 11, 2005 QuoteEddy, you have a few thousand more jumps than JP. He's a new TM. JP. If you're walking and talking' you did the right thing. More importantly, your student is safe and sound. And you have another cool entry in your log book. Bon, Read my reply to JP. I assume you think I was telling him he did it all wrong..... I wasn't. And since when are tandem reserve rides cool? That hype only leads to some TI's that are way to eager the chop a canopy only to log something cool in their logbook. Some canopies could possibly be worked (until hard deck) into a landable canopy in most cases. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miami 0 #12 July 11, 2005 Interesting...I had played with the secondary toggles (i.e. doing practice flares with them up high to see if they would work alone) and it didn't seem like they were effective at all by themselves. Good to know that could be an option should the situation arise...Miami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #13 July 11, 2005 Quoteit didn't seem like they were effective at all by themselves. Take a few wraps on them and try it again. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #14 July 11, 2005 QuoteToday I get what is getting to be the usual 180 or 360 on opening but this one keeps going like a brake fire. I am committed to having nobody ever, EVER, question one of my chops. When JP chops a canopy it should probably be cast into a lake of fire and excommunicated from the tandem realm. So,while I'm spinning gently I pull the brakes clear and pump them. A wierd thing happens. The right brake just comes out and all the line slithers through the stainless ring and is now streaming behind me, and I see broken line above the slider. Huh. Um. Pumping the brake lines won't reattach them. I can't do turns, it occurrs to me that some genius like Bill Booth could do some McGuyver shit with the secondaries, but I'm just a short-bus ex-cop with really limitied skills. I tell dude (who is a really big young smart kid) to stay still. When he says "Whaaaaaat!" I chop right and left and he is perfect. Just stays arched and we do the 30 minute return to terminal while the reserve deploys. A really good job by the passenger. The brake line blew. Any suggestions other than chopping? We had plenty of height, but I am getting a little wound about three chops in three weeks.. Winds were 25 to 30 (not unusual for Byron) Could I have landed this thing on the secondaries? Mr. Booth, in particular, when the primary toggle fails, is chopping the best choice? Peace out. When in doubt....... Do the magic "canopy changed color" trick! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #15 July 11, 2005 >>Dont assume, as Bonnie may have, that I was telling you that you did the wrong thing. You asked "could I have", and thats what I answered.<< Slow down Ed. I tried to separate my comments. I was NOT implying that you were telling JP he did the wrong thing AT ALL. I just wanted to point out to you that he was a new TM... but quickly gaining experience in the school of hard knocks. Then I addressed him separately. Basically not to over analyse things. I would rather see a new TM error on the side of caution than the other way around. So in fact. If he is walking and talking.... he done good. The actual reserve ride is no fun, so with time and experience, he'll find just what he can ride in, and what he can't. IMHO, he did the right thing. There was a degree of uncertainty. He eliminated it. >>Some tend to poorly maintain line sets on the rigs they own unfortunatly, but broken steering lines aren't that common.<< Ironically, these canopies have around 300 jumps on them. The steering line issue has been identified, and is currently being rectified. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #16 July 11, 2005 Thanks for the reply Bill. This was a 384, they are older canopies that have been relined recently. Ed, I was trying to let you know that I was not being sarcastic. You've never been condescending or sarcastic to me when I've asked for advice, or you have offered it. I appreciate your feedback. I've had my tandem ticket for about a year, and have just over 300 tandems. Since this spring, I'm averaging 10 to 20 a week. I think you know what I mean when we get together and tell "no shit there I was" stories about heinous malfunctions, and even misjudging a problem as a malfunction, that could have been fixed, but was chopped. The main steering line breaking was just not one of the stories I had heard, and it's probably because you (Bill) fixed the problem by going to the drogues. I still just can barely imagine how hard those openings must have been when you took everybody to tandem terminal. Yikes. With the wind like it was (gusty and changing directions continually) the better decision in my specific case was to chop. If it happens again and I am not carrying my max weight passenger, I'll have the time to see if I can turn and flare with just the risers. Thanks all, for all the input. Bill, being able to get feedback from you is like somebody who owns a Cobra being able to exchange e-mail with Carroll Shelby. Thanks very much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivadee 0 #17 July 13, 2005 QuoteAnd since when are tandem reserve rides cool? That hype only leads to some TI's that are way to eager the chop a canopy only to log something cool in their logbook. tandem cutaways are cool Cool because...... it is a successful chop, reserve deployment and safe landing. Dealing with an emergency situation with a high degree of professionalism and correct procedure is an awesome accomplishment. I will never land a partially malfunctioned main, why? when I have a perfectly good backup? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #18 July 13, 2005 QuoteI will never land a partially malfunctioned main, why? Determining the landability and chance of injury surely is a factor before landing a main that is not 100% perfect. Quotewhen I have a perfectly good backup? Reserves malfunction too , so you can never be 100% sure your going to get a perfectly good, LAST canopy, if you choose to chop something you know you are capable of landing safely and without injury. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #19 July 14, 2005 it is a successful chop, reserve deployment and safe landing. Dealing with an emergency situation with a high degree of professionalism and correct procedure is an awesome accomplishment. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hate it when TIs are forced to use their professionalism to compensate for lack of professionalism on the part of riggers and packers. For example, this thread started with ugly, fuzzy, frayed steering lines that should have been replaced 50 jumps ago. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luminous 0 #20 July 14, 2005 QuoteI hate it when TIs are forced to use their professionalism to compensate for lack of professionalism on the part of riggers and packers. I don't understand. Are you saying it's up to JUST the riggers that work with the gear, and JUST the packers that pack it to identify potential problems and work on getting them resolved? What about the pilot ? Edited to add: Or pilots as the case may be. Cheers. Larry'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #21 July 14, 2005 QuoteWhat about the pilot ? Unfortunatly some TI's dont have the nads to tell the DZO or DZM that they refuse to jump the gear in that condition, for fear of losing their job maybe? Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #22 July 17, 2005 Quote QuoteWhat about the pilot ? Unfortunatly some TI's dont have the nads to tell the DZO or DZM that they refuse to jump the gear in that condition, for fear of losing their job maybe? But that is definately not the case here. Since the primary TMs are also our DZMs. And they are both very concerned with their own safety as well as that of their TMs and students. The whole issue occured when our steering lines started to wear prematurely. Again. The situation has been identified, verified and rectified. And out of respect for our rigger, I would have to say that we have one of the best in the industry. But he does not jump them every day. So it is up to the TMs and packers to report that to him. All of which happened. Be safe. Ed ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #23 July 17, 2005 Oh, Ed. I got Nads for days. Nads and nads and nads. I am a typical problem child high number jumper rating holder in a short period of time. But since I got nads that are so huge they don't enter the room until I've walked halfway in, I do stuff like post about my ignorance and include pictures. So now, my low-time high-jump number self knows something I didn't know before. They are freaking huge, Ed. They have their own atmosphere and everything. Cheers. I now get to go video team "Snatch Force" do practice jumps. I did get a nice overview of the Sigma system from Lewmonst here. I really, really like it. All kinds of nice innovations over the Vectors that I jump. How bout another question? It seems just about impossible to stand up a tandem landing here. I know density altitude contributes, and they have such a nice turf area to slide onto. but I have seen very, very few, and these guys are very good, and astoundingly current. Cheers! Posting live from the Bombshelter at Perris. JP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #24 July 18, 2005 QuoteNADS! They have their own atmosphere and everything. Then ya might wanna watch out they don't orbit too close to Uranis and get pulled into it's gravitational pull.... QuoteSigma system I really, really like it. They are nice aren't they. I was spoiled jumping them for some time, but once and awhile I'd get stuck with the Eclipse rig, since I was the only TI rated on it, and even after a clean exit and drouge throw I'd have to look back over my shoulder to make sure the drouge bridle wasn't caught on something that was making me feel like we were almost head down! Quotethey have such a nice turf area to slide onto. Just like we have in Lodi. Be safe! Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #25 July 18, 2005 Quote QuoteNADS! They have their own atmosphere and everything. Then ya might wanna watch out they don't orbit too close to Uranis and get pulled into it's gravitational pull.... QuoteSigma system I really, really like it. They are nice aren't they. I was spoiled jumping them for some time, but once and awhile I'd get stuck with the Eclipse rig, since I was the only TI rated on it, and even after a clean exit and drouge throw I'd have to look back over my shoulder to make sure the drouge bridle wasn't caught on something that was making me feel like we were almost head down! Quotethey have such a nice turf area to slide onto. Just like we have in Lodi. Be safe! Ed Yeah, you ass, and I honestly admitted to a SoCal jumper today about the amazing frugality of jumping there. There's also the barbed wire thing when you land out, but I didn't focus on that. Or the freeway. Or you. Freaking Iwan still has my birdman suit, when's the next event at Lodi? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
