FLYJACK 654 #56026 August 24, 2021 1 hour ago, snowmman said: How do you know when Cossey made the dummy reserve, or how many existed? I don't know when Cossey made it or how many existed but I do know that there were many years between Sheridan's account and the use of the chute for Norjak that Cossey claimed to have made. I also know that Sheridan's assumption that the NORJAK chute was the same one he used many years before is not knowable by Sheridan. I also know the first account of any colour for the X was Black in Tosaw's book. I also know that the first account of a red X was in 2009 on DZ after the Parachutist article with "large X and red closing flaps".. I also know that Sheridan's first mention of a red X was after it was mentioned on DZ. He read DZ. I can also prove that Hillary Clinton didn't use her own private server, she used Bill's and shared it with high level Clinton Foundation operatives. The FBI covered that up for her, she lost anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #56027 August 25, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said: I see you guys are still arguing minute points about the chutes given to Cooper. I don't have anything much to say about that. He got four chutes. Two belonged to Norman Hayden and were sent by cab to NWA/SeaTac under a rental agreement. One was later returned and ended up in the WA ST History Museum. One got popped on board the jet and is the hands of the FBI today. The third was the fake reserve and that went out the back of the jet during the hijacking and is still waiting for someone to find it in the woods of SW Washington. The last was the Navy Backpack Cooper used to jump. May have been discovered in Amboy in 2008, or maybe not. Cossey was notoriously inaccurate and inflated his role in the hijacking for years. That's all I need to know. IMHO, the rest is just fluff. The only real question remaining is where is the NB-6/8 and where is the phony trainer reserve? Finding the reserve out there in the woods probably won't tell you much. Finding the chute Cooper jumped with out there might tell you a lot. I see you still fail to understand the chute problem.. You need to ask yourself,, if Cooper used one of Hayden's back chutes.. (SN 226 was returned) and there were two packing cards found (SN 226 and SN 60-9707) and Cossey's description of the remaining chute as a freefall Sport chute was wrong. and Cossey claimed his two back chutes were taken from Issaquah then changed it to his home. and Cossey never provided his chute records. and Cossey never met Hayden. and Hayden bought the chutes from a surplus shop. and Cossey claimed Cooper used his customized NB6/8 provided by himself. and Cossey is a proven liar. and Cossey is the only source for the description of the Cooper chute. and Cossey's initial chute description at his interview did not match the earlier chute descriptions. then, how do we know Cossey is correct that Hayden used his custom NB6/8 chute.. If Cossey was wrong and it looks likely... then they were looking for the wrong chute and it is probably the chute that belongs to the SN 60-9707 card. The Cooper chute may have been found and rejected based on Cossey, not the Amboy chute. Edited August 25, 2021 by FLYJACK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ParrotheadVol 70 #56028 August 25, 2021 ^^^^^^^^^^Totally Misses The Point^^^^^^^^^^ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 21 #56029 August 25, 2021 (edited) I strongly believe that Cooper’s rig is out there somewhere. No reason to carry it with him. Good reason to quickly conceal it. No reason for a deep burial. The concealment requirements were modest and temporary. Just keep it from being easily sighted in the initial hours of the search. Discovery of the rig would allow the cops to center their search. I believe the rig was an NB8 with an unmodified C9 28 ft diameter round canopy. It was easy to find C9 canopies in surplus stores back then. I never once saw a Navy 26 ft Conical in a surplus store and I did a LOT of looking. The parachute gear companies seemed to snag them all in DOD surplus auctions. I bought my Navy Conical from a sailor-skydiver who was based at Iwakuni Japan. The base rigger “traded” him this perfect but time expired canopy for some trashed sport canopy. The rigger needed to destroy/demilitarize the timed out canopies. Edited August 25, 2021 by 377 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 21 #56030 August 25, 2021 As for military surplus round canopies, I’m so glad they are in my past. I jumped last Saturday with my modern “square” ram air canopy. See pics below. Cushy landings. The military rounds could give you “crunchy” landings, with the crunch coming from your ankle bones breaking. Fortunately my 100+ surplus round jumps were injury free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #56031 August 25, 2021 1 hour ago, RobertMBlevins said: I didn't miss a damn thing. I just don't buy into the idea of speculation after fifty years. The original report by John Detlor has been verified and its accurate. Anything else is BS and fluff. You completely missed it Blevins.... blind as a bat. and you call it BS and fluff because you are clueless.... crazy. You can read so it must be comprehension. The Detlor report is ENTIRELY irrelevant. Explain how we know that the chute Cooper took was Cossey's sage green/sage green modded NB6/8? I'll help you, it was Cossey's assumption.. get it. There is no other evidence to support the claim that was his NB6/8 sage green/sage green chute. Cossey claimed the chute left behind was a freefall sport chute, it wasn't. He got that one wrong. He never said the chutes were Hayden's, he always claimed they were his. Maybe he just assumed and made an error initially but he must have figured it out at some time. Two back chute packing cards were found SN 226 was returned to Hayden and SN 60-9707.. Cossey, NB6/8 sage green nylon container sage green nylon harness 28 FT white, modified handle. This may be the actual chute Cooper used.. this does NOT match Cossey's description of his chute. PARACHUTE IDENTIFICATION MAKE: Pioneer Parachute Co. TYPE: 28' Ripstop Conical (Early quoted as 28', chute inspector 24’, one is a typo/error) SERIAL NO: 60-9707 DATE OF MFR: July, 1960 INSPECTED BY: May 21, 1971 by E J Cossey on riggers license number 159638 PACKING CARD: listed Brown Engineering Company, Post Office Box 1436, Patterson, California, 95363. Chute was described early as 28 FT white chute with an Olive Drab container and Tan cotton harness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #56032 August 25, 2021 Just now, RobertMBlevins said: Where have you guys been for the last dozen years? Of course Cossey didn't own any of the chutes given to Cooper. Says so in the report submitted early-on by FBI agent John Detlor. Hayden also says so and his story is backed up by the fact the FBI returned the only other backpack to him that was provided to Cooper. The one he donated to the WA ST History Museum. The two reserves were not Cossey's either except possibly the friggin fake trainer reserve. Even that is under question because it is unlikely that Linn Emerick would start handing out chutes that didn't belong to Sky Sports. UNBELEIVABLE.... You still missed it... this is getting ridiculous.. This is my last shot at it Blevins after this you are on your own. REAL SIMPLE.. a fifth grader can get it. The FBI was looking for the wrong chute because they were relying on Cossey's description. The Cooper chute may have already been found and rejected because of Cossey. Get it. All the chutes found and rejected need to be re-checked. There were many that were rejected because they didn't match Cossey's description of his NB6/8. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 313 #56033 August 25, 2021 2 hours ago, 377 said: I jumped last Saturday with my modern “square” ram air canopy. See pics below. Congratulations on getting back in the air! Is that Taft? It looks like Taft, but I thought you were farther north. I'm also guessing it was windy because it looks like you've got a shagger lurking to help collapse your canopy. I made some jumps in June to keep my AFF rating current, but I'm standing down again while Delta does it's thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #56034 August 25, 2021 1 hour ago, RobertMBlevins said: I also believe Cooper's rig is out there somewhere. I find it extremely suspicious that the Seattle FBI refused to give local media an exact reason they dismissed the Amboy chute as being Cooper's, even though they did several media releases (at first) saying they had confidence it could be Cooper's. ("It's the right size, the right color and found in the right place...") And then a week later under somewhat suspicious circumstances that included games played by Earl Cossey....NOTHING. I imagine the trainer reserve is out there as well, and IF the Amboy chute was Cooper's, probably NORTH of the Amboy chute. Five years after the Seattle FBI dismissed the chute as Cooper's, this is what they were telling people who inquired about it: "It is evidence in an ongoing case..." Go figure. The Amboy chute doesn't match the SN 60-9707 card found on the plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #56035 August 25, 2021 34 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said: You determined this by what method? A few low-res pictures of a lumped-together canopy sitting on the parking garage floor at the Seattle FBI? Their initial press release claimed it was the right size, the right color, and found in the right place. Their quote, which was shown in several news articles worldwide. The date. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #56036 August 31, 2021 On 8/24/2021 at 2:58 PM, FLYJACK said: I don't know when Cossey made it or how many existed but I do know that there were many years between Sheridan's account and the use of the chute for Norjak that Cossey claimed to have made. I also know that Sheridan's assumption that the NORJAK chute was the same one he used many years before is not knowable by Sheridan. I also know the first account of any colour for the X was Black in Tosaw's book. I also know that the first account of a red X was in 2009 on DZ after the Parachutist article with "large X and red closing flaps".. I also know that Sheridan's first mention of a red X was after it was mentioned on DZ. He read DZ. I can also prove that Hillary Clinton didn't use her own private server, she used Bill's and shared it with high level Clinton Foundation operatives. The FBI covered that up for her, she lost anyway. Why so touchy? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #56037 August 31, 2021 6 hours ago, snowmman said: Why so touchy? I get tired of misrepresentations and straw-man nonsense. Georger does this all the time. I never claimed to know when Cossey made the chute or how many dummy chutes existed between Sheridan's time at Issaquah and Norjak. When you process all the information it is extremely unlikely the dummy chute Sheridan is referring to is the same one that Cossey made that went to Cooper. If you want to believe something else go ahead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #56038 August 31, 2021 4 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said: Said by Eric Ulis recently, the organizer for Cooper Con 2021: Eric Ulis, you are SO full of it. You have no 302 and you have no source. I'm calling it like I see it. Hayden bought his rigs from a place down near Boeing Field that sold used chutes. Cossey was lying and so are you. How do I know? I interviewed Hayden extensively over a couple of days long ago. And I kept very good notes. If you continue down this road you can expect that any credibility you have trying to serve as host for Cooper Con will go right down the toilet. It is no surprise to me that the public is not buying tickets to your convention, or believing your baloney. Robert, It is true, there are several 302's that claim Cossey owned the chute used by "unsub".. Of course, the problem is that info came from Cossey and he provided no records. 302's are not conclusions. This is the thing, Cossey assumed the back chutes were his early on, they weren't. Cossey must have realized he was wrong but kept lying... that means all the chutes found were rejected based on a comparison to the wrong chute, that description from Cossey. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #56039 August 31, 2021 According to the FBI, Hahneman demanded and received 2,000 Benson & Hedges cigarettes in cartons.. He left some behind, not sure how many. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 313 #56040 August 31, 2021 Robert quotes Ulis... 12 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said: ...Cossey did previously own Hayden’s rigs... then says 12 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said: Eric Ulis, you are SO full of it... Hayden bought his rigs from a place down near Boeing Field that sold used chutes. Cossey was lying... I've said this before somewhere, but I'll submit it again... The market for used parachutes is very limited and the community of people who deal in them is very small. If that store where Hayden bought his rigs used Cossey for pack jobs, it's entirely possible that they also bought rigs from him. I'm not saying that Cossey had owned those rigs at some point, I would have no way of knowing, but it would not be far-fetched if he had. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #56041 September 1, 2021 2 hours ago, dudeman17 said: I've said this before somewhere, but I'll submit it again... The market for used parachutes is very limited and the community of people who deal in them is very small. If that store where Hayden bought his rigs used Cossey for pack jobs, it's entirely possible that they also bought rigs from him. I'm not saying that Cossey had owned those rigs at some point, I would have no way of knowing, but it would not be far-fetched if he had. This has been the assumption for years... as it seems plausible. But,, Cossey claimed his back chutes came from Issaquah. Cossey changed it to.. his back chutes were sent from his house. Cossey also claimed his back chute left behind was returned to him. Cossey never admitted the chutes came from Hayden. He always maintained they were his and came from him. What has happened is we have previously assumed Cossey must have meant he owned the chutes before Hayden got them but he has never actually claimed that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dudeman17 313 #56042 September 1, 2021 To me, those are separate issues. As per Blevins' account of Hayden's rigs - Everything Hayden said in Blevins' interview could be true and accurate, same with the FBI report he uses to back that up. All of it could be accurate as per Hayden's rigs. (And Cossey may or may not have owned those rigs at some point.) Completely separate, is whether or not Cossey also supplied other rigs, and how that may have happened. They are not mutually exclusive. Each could have supplied rigs, unbeknownst to the other. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #56043 September 1, 2021 7 minutes ago, dudeman17 said: To me, those are separate issues. As per Blevins' account of Hayden's rigs - Everything Hayden said in Blevins' interview could be true and accurate, same with the FBI report he uses to back that up. All of it could be accurate as per Hayden's rigs. (And Cossey may or may not have owned those rigs at some point.) Completely separate, is whether or not Cossey also supplied other rigs, and how that may have happened. They are not mutually exclusive. Each could have supplied rigs, unbeknownst to the other. They are separate issues in theory but when you add in the other evidence it becomes clearer. I found that the chute Hayden got returned was sent from Reno, that confirms SN 226 was left on the plane.. Tosaw reported that Cooper checked the packing cards.. that isn't confirmed in the FBI files but they do claim SN 60-9707 packing card was found in the remaining chute.. SN 226. The FBI confirmed that both of Hayden's chutes were packed by Cossey May 21, 1971 matching the dates for SN 226 and 60-9707. Those two cards most certainly represent both of Hayden's chutes. So, we have two packing cards, same date matching Hayden's two chutes found on the plane. SN 226 was returned to Hayden, the other missing. It isn't direct evidence but close. But, the real problem is we have assumed that Cossey owned the chutes prior to Hayden, he has never claimed that and there is no evidence for it. Cossey claimed he directly supplied his chutes. The belief that Cossey owned the chutes prior to Hayden is a made up assumption based on nothing. Essentially, the ownership Cossey claimed was him supplying the back chutes and with the two packing cards from the plane matching Hayden's chutes Cossey's claim is false. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #56044 September 1, 2021 6 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said: The parachutes were obtained in a hurry, basically by people scrambling around and trying to find them. Someone thought of trying Sky Sports, so two officers from the Washington State Patrol went there. They only spoke to Linn Emerick. Cossey was not there. He was at home in Woodinville. If he HAD been there...Emerick would not have handed out a phony chute by mistake. Cossey would have noticed that. Someone thought to contact Norman Hayden. Hayden agreed to send his two chutes up to SeaTac in a cab, which he did. He told NWA it would be a RENTAL, NWA later sent him a check but just the one and not enough to cover the cost of two parachutes. This is why Hayden later had a lawyer send a request to the FBI to return the chute Cooper did not jump with. So they returned it. Now it's in a museum. That is the whole story. Robert, You don't have a grasp of this issue so your logic is wrong. You have consistently used Hayden's story to disprove Cossey. Hayden can be 100% accurate and Cossey can be 100% accurate. Both could have sent in chutes, only two were used and both assumed their chutes were on the plane. However, Cossey's story fails not because of Hayden's story but because of the other evidence. So, ironically your summary above is accurate (except that Emerick should have also ID'd the dummy) but the logic you used to get there is faulty. and it is not the whole story... For 50 years, investigators used the Cossey supplied Cooper back chute description. If that description was wrong the chute may have been found. That could tell us where Cooper landed and if he pulled and potentially survived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #56045 September 1, 2021 On 8/31/2021 at 7:02 AM, FLYJACK said: I get tired of misrepresentations and straw-man nonsense. Georger does this all the time. I never claimed to know when Cossey made the chute or how many dummy chutes existed between Sheridan's time at Issaquah and Norjak. When you process all the information it is extremely unlikely the dummy chute Sheridan is referring to is the same one that Cossey made that went to Cooper. If you want to believe something else go ahead. I think all I said was that your timeline was inaccurate. I think your timeline makes sense now. All the other stuff you've written, sure, I understand you're trying to describe your thinking. Thanks. I think you don't need to tell people to "go ahead". People "go ahead" without permission. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #56046 September 1, 2021 3 hours ago, snowmman said: I think all I said was that your timeline was inaccurate. I think your timeline makes sense now. All the other stuff you've written, sure, I understand you're trying to describe your thinking. Thanks. I think you don't need to tell people to "go ahead". People "go ahead" without permission. I can say whatever I want and you can think whatever you want, that doesn't need to be said, SNOW. It is comments like yours that remind me why I don't share most of my research. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #56047 September 2, 2021 1 hour ago, FLYJACK said: I can say whatever I want and you can think whatever you want, that doesn't need to be said, SNOW. It is comments like yours that remind me why I don't share most of my research. I don't care what you share or don't share. Do whatever. Why are you posting so much if you don't want to share or converse? You seem angry about something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #56048 September 2, 2021 4 hours ago, snowmman said: I don't care what you share or don't share. Do whatever. Why are you posting so much if you don't want to share or converse? You seem angry about something. Do I have your permission? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #56049 September 2, 2021 55 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said: He's pissed off because when he starts pushing Fred Hahneman as the hijacker, and I point out a few problems with that...he refuses to provide a single witness or proof of anything that possibly links Hahneman to the Cooper crime. My biggest problem with Hahneman is that he pulled off a similar hijacking just a few months after Cooper did, and that he (Hahneman) was caught and sent to Federal prison for ten years...and somehow no one was able to link him to the Cooper crime. Like that thought (Hahneman might be Cooper as well) never occurred to the FBI? When I brought that up, and the fact they had old Fred in the slammer for ten full years...Flyjack hints that Hahneman was being protected by someone higher up...but never bothers to offer a bit of evidence showing that this was the case. Excuse me for living, but the Feds had Hahneman on ice for TEN YEARS. If they even had a suspicion he and Cooper were the same guy, it would not have been difficult for the FBI to prove it. They could have paraded in the witnesses to the prison. FBI agents would have been visiting him at least twice a month for that ten years he was in custody. Everyone from the ticket agent, to the passengers, to the stews. Someone would have recognized him because it was only a few months between Cooper's little stunt and Hahneman's hijack to Honduras. Hahneman was nationwide news and his picture was plastered on every paper in America. His fingerprints were in the NCIC database as well. He is what you call a 'known quantity'. Yet so far...there are no real references to him in any of the FBI files on Cooper. My take on that is that the FBI must have figured out early on in the game that Hahneman was not Cooper. I told Flyjack: "Maybe they know something (about Hahneman) that YOU don't know..." Clueless Blevins. I haven't been pushing Hahneman, what I do is correct misinformation. You keep bringing him up because you know KC isn't Cooper and you are threatened.. You make crazy assumptions and have no facts. I have a very good reason not to go into details, besides you aren't worthy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #56050 September 2, 2021 9 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said: I don't live for your worthiness or lack of it. Don't flatter yourself. And I do NOT 'know' that KC is not the hijacker. There is certainly a fair amount of evidence and witness testimony indicating that perhaps he was. The only people who are dead-set against that possibility are...(wait for it now)....OTHER armchair Cooper investigators. That reaction is normal. If anyone, and I mean ANY one were to ID Cooper for real, most of the discussions would stop and some people would have nothing left to fill their time at Cooper-related websites. Just a fact, you aren't worthy. You just aren't a high level thinker and you are disrespectful. Regardless, I can't give details and have a very good reason. I have told some people privately. Clearly, if you concluded Hahneman could not be Cooper based on your lack of knowledge and gross assumptions then why do you keep pestering me about details. Both you and Georger have the same problem, you both judge a suspect based on the advocate, not the facts. It isn't my responsibility to educate you on the facts, I am not selling anything. Your attacks on me are irrelevant as to Hahneman being Cooper or not. Your argument is I won't give you the evidence I have so Hahneman isn't Cooper.. this is literally void of logic and insane. I actually prefer people reject Hahneman. Yes, you know KC isn't Cooper, he doesn't match the description at all.. he did resemble Sketch A but that was revised to the more accurate Sketch B. The case for KC is nonsense. You can patch together a similar case for thousands of people.. you did a lot of work patching together one for KC. In 2004 Lyle told the FBI he had no evidence. HINT, there is none. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites