DB Cooper

[skyjack71 0]

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Skyjack:

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I want to know if anyone has noticed in the past several months that when any of us make a post that suggests something we were not aware of before and going in a positive direction the following posts go a complete different direction.

377:
No, I haven't noticed that. How do you define "positive direction?"

Since my words get completely turned around by others on the forum it is time for me to go just as Sluggo has. Some individuals take all the hard work done by Sluggo and others who have spent a lot of time and their own money on technical research only to be treated badly by a couple of manuvering posters who have no motive other than to diffuse the facts and continue the myth.

If you will notice when I said "positive direction" I did not refer to Duane - but the crime itself and possible clues that we may have missed...such as the interpretation of what Tina said.

I was excited by those pictures of the bag posted (with the white frayed cord) and the information about loops versus handles. What did she really see? Only Tina knows the answer to that.

Unlike others I try to not go back and take someone's words and hash them around - other than to try to keep the myth out of the truths, but as I have said I am too old and not smart enough or computer savvy enough to do that.

It makes no difference what contributions I make - I am made fun of or my words are over analyzed with only one purpose by those doing so.

No one know why our own government continues to cover-up mistakes made by previous administrations and law enforcement, but it is a fact that the cover-up is there.

I wish I had the time to find out WHY? When our secretive government finally releases "secret" and closed documents I will occupy not this life, but whatever lies beyond us.

Our own government refuses to acknowledge past mistakes and continues to hide the truth in not only this case but others - by omission, editing of files and other words better left unsaid.

I leave you with these reminders:

Fingerprints (comprehensive left hand prints conveniently left off master and not addressed by the FBI). The arrest in 1976 and 1980. One incident involved a gun in the possession of a felon.


Non disclosure of the Jefferson file and the Commutation of Sentence.

The DNA - how convenient, to exclude individuals, but to state that there were multiple partial DNAs (Carr's words to me on the phone when he contacted me before he went public), yet "loose" or "it is in Reno" the only positive DNA they have for Cooper.

The FBI has ignored what I told them about the tie and refused to make available detailed photos of that clasp. When they found out why I wanted this, the archived files of over 13000 photos where suddenly shut down from public viewing.Not a co-incidence.

To publicly try to discredit me by saying I had knowledge of the DNA several months prior to their going public - anyone who knows me knows that is not true and Carr knows that is not true.

The FBI has provide NO valid evidence that Weber was not Cooper.

a witness who put Duane in WA prior to the crime.

The refusal of the FBI to investigate John C. Collins (they don't have to they know who he was).

I have been in touch with a man for yrs who never gave me his real name - this man knew Duane was Cooper. He tried to lead me to the pieces of the puzzle - hoping I would unravel it myself and see what was before me...without telling me who he was. His communications slowed and then stopped. I asked him if he was ill and he didn't answer that and one day there were no more messages.

There are still those who know the truth, but soon there will be none left to tell the story. By delaying the opening of files - it is a known fact that when they do - NO one will care anymore...so the files will just disappear...but it is my guess they have already been destroyed just like the cigarette butts.

I hope those who have strived to accomplish promoting their "story" and to diffuse the truth are satisfied with themselves.

Trust no one and always look over your shoulder - someone might know who you are and what you did. That is a helluv-a-life!

Farewell

PS (I felt if fitting I leave the way I came). Bold, underlined and lots of whatever you call those little smiley things.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

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Okay. you jumpers have talked about how tight the community is, and how everyone knows everyone, and us nonjumpers just don't quite understand......And then what do you know? I get a PM from XXXXX XXXXX giving the details. I'm blown away..

I got a very guarded at best, almost hostile at worst, response from BASE jumpers when I asked about a Greenpeace BASE jump I saw footage of (you think skydivers are tight... we ain't got nothing on the BASE community**)... and then ... I got a PM from XXXXX XXXXX, who did the jump, and happily told me all about it XXXXX XXXXX, you rock!

** ps just in case that could be interpreted wrong - that was not meant to be negative - i understand fully why the community is guarded.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Georger, I also think the balance of probabilities is weighted far against Mayfield... but it presented a good example of how ridiculous it is to ask to prove someone was "not" Cooper. Particularly when (it appears) there are certain "myths" about his "alibi" Of course - Mayfield is also a prime example of how things can be twisted to present what seems to be a very good case for arguing that someone was Cooper. (although i'm not sure about your "own back yard" comments considering some of the other things he did in his own backyard...) btw, Mayfield and H knew each other before the Cooper incident (which has led to some cute conspiracy theories).

My best suspects right now remain people we don't know yet; either an ex-paratrooper that survived quietly, or a poor sod who like that WW2 airman is still hanging from a tree (or at the bottom of a river/lake) somewhere.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 197]

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Georger, I also think the balance of probabilities is weighted far against Mayfield... but it presented a good example of how ridiculous it is to ask to prove someone was "not" Cooper. Particularly when (it appears) there are certain "myths" about his "alibi" Of course - Mayfield is also a prime example of how things can be twisted to present what seems to be a very good case for arguing that someone was Cooper. (although i'm not sure about your "own back yard" comments considering some of the other things he did in his own backyard...) btw, Mayfield and H knew each other before the Cooper incident (which has led to some cute conspiracy theories).

My best suspects right now remain people we don't know yet; either an ex-paratrooper that survived quietly, or a poor sod who like that WW2 airman is still hanging from a tree (or at the bottom of a river/lake) somewhere.

REPLY:

Agree with all - - just pondering here late Friday
night w. Turner Classic Movies on. I remain convinced Cooper scouted the route to some extent. (but no direct evidence he did). I think he picked this route for a reason and he seems to have wanted to bail in WA and maybe close to Seattle.
He had an escape plan? I remain astonished because with all the effort the FBI and others put into turning anything up that would connect, nothing apparently connected (or it was missed). This almost suggests a complete outsider coming in to pick an
opportunity. He caught everybody off guard and
leaves no trace coming or going. How in hell do you do that!?

Maybe we have looked for the wrong connections?
We have focused on aircraft, aviation, parachuting,
and technical skills. Maybe all of that was secondary to this guy and his true skills (and hutzpah) were
in other areas. Maybe that is why Cooper comes out as 'middling' in everything technical. As Ckret once
said: 'little knowledge a dangerous thing' or as my
Gram would have said, "jack of all trades and master of none'.

Maybe this guy was actually nothing technical.
Maybe he was a voyeur (a watcher) and seeing an opportunity then he decides to walk in and take what he is convinced he can get and escape quickly from? That is almost exactly how the media first portrayed Cooper when this first happened. A Nobody who
suddenly does something and becomes a Somebody. The David who smotes Goliath and runs and gets away.

This guy knew people and he had made hard estimates about how the system was likely to respond and he didnt press his luck beyond Seattle
but bailed. He didnt give people the time to set up a response. Once he was in this and saw firsthand
how the system was gearing up while he sits at
SEA then he decides to get the hell out as soon as
possible. That time he spent sitting at SEA may have changed whatever longer plan he had into
deciding to bail asap as soon as airborne, because
he saw how the system was slowly gearing up to
deal with him.

Its all conjecture but I cant help thinking about it -

George

[snowmman 3]

The little politics quips reminded me of a thought I had but didn't post much on.

It's easy to fall into a trap of thinking Cooper might have been a left/liberal kind of guy..i.e. the folklore of winning against the system. Or a guy with no social/political views..just wanted the money.

But in reading thru Hubbard, I was surprised to see him say that contrary to myth, many of the skyjackers were more right wing conservative types. I don't know if the numbers still hold that way.

But it got me looking for right wing groups. As I mentioned before, the Minutemen had been trying to be active in the Seattle area there, with a number of arrests around 1968 around planned bank robberies/bombings.

I was always surprised that H. thought it made sense to say Cooper might have been a career criminal looking to make one last big score. And I still have a hard time with the idea of "it was just about the money". I guess I'm a "grudge+money" fanboy.

I wanted to mention this, because it made me at least think of different theories.

In the 1968 arrests in Seattle, the founder was indicted also.
There were similar arrests in 1966 in NY, but the charges were dropped
background site
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/adl/paranoia-as-patriotism/minutemen.html


news snips about the Seattle stuff (there was an informant in the group that talked to FBI)

MINUTEMEN FOUNDER CITED IN THEFT PLOT
March 5, 1968, Tuesday

SEATTLE, March 4 (AP) -Robert Bolivar DePugh, 44 year-old founder and head of the Minuteman organization, and one of his top assistants have been indicted here in a bank robbery plot...

DePugh evidently evaded the FBI for 18 months and was
eventually caught in 1969.

MINUTEMEN CHIEF CAPTURED BY F.B.I.; DePugh and Aide Had Been Sought Year and a Half

July 14, 1969, Monday
WASHINGTON, July 13 (UPI) -- Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation have arrested Robert Bolivar DePugh, leader of the right-wing organization called the Minutemen, on a charge of general conspiracy in connection with a series of planned bank robberies, Attorney General John N. Mitchell announced today.


DePugh was paroled in 1973

DePugh of Minutemen Paroled
New York Times - May 1, 1973
After having served four years of an 11-year sentence, Robert Bolivar DePugh, founder of the right-wing Minutemen organization, was released from Federal.....

Others:
Duane I. Carlson (seattle) had been convicted. Started serving a 5-year sentence, on 11/8/70, roughly a year before the hijacking.

Jo would have liked knowing the Minutemen were looked at on the MLK assassination, but there was nothing.
http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/part-2c.html

[georger 197]

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The little politics quips reminded me of a thought I had but didn't post much on.

It's easy to fall into a trap of thinking Cooper might have been a left/liberal kind of guy..i.e. the folklore of winning against the system. Or a guy with no social/political views..just wanted the money.

But in reading thru Hubbard, I was surprised to see him say that contrary to myth, many of the skyjackers were more right wing conservative types. I don't know if the numbers still hold that way.

But it got me looking for right wing groups. As I mentioned before, the Minutemen had been trying to be active in the Seattle area there, with a number of arrests around 1968 around planned bank robberies/bombings.

I was always surprised that H. thought it made sense to say Cooper might have been a career criminal looking to make one last big score. And I still have a hard time with the idea of "it was just about the money". I guess I'm a "grudge+money" fanboy.

REPLY>

I dont know what would have lead H to that conclusion. I would have taken the opposite view:
A nobody looking to make his "first & last big score"
before age ended the opportunity, after years of gestating.

Hijacking is special - not bank robbery. The risks
are infnitely greater with the former & when you add
parachuting then the risks go 'sky-high'. The public
acknowledged the difference in their reaction. The
only thing better in the public mind would have been if somebody had dropped from a satellite and hijacked an airplane - impossible. There was a
strong sense of the impossible in the public mind
in what Cooper did at the time. Law enforcement
and aviation would have seen it differently, but to
the public this was in a class of its own at the time.
(This is not my idea. I am almost quoting an FBI
agent I knew at the time and what he said).

There is also a difference between Reactionary
& Liberal activists worth noting. They tend to follow
a differernt life track. Liberals are active earlier and
settle down by their mid forties. Reactionaries are active later, as a rule, and their activism may even
increase as they age.

I think your reference to the Minutemen has merit. It is exactly that kind of environment out of which
an older activist could emerge - to take independent action within a small group of conspirators. The
Michigan group and McVey are good examples.

In addition reactionary groups are usually difficult
to penetrate vs liberal groups whose members you
can know by simply attending a public meeting.

In any event Snowmman, I think your observations
are well taken...

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[georger 197]

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the pink canopy was originally white when in military inventory. this one was apparently dyed in in its civilian life

REPLY>

We tracked this down. You will notice the chute dye
left some areas and cords white -

Georger

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[low_pull1 2]

interesting, the Author and photographer are "John Mullins" ....any relation the Mullins in TN??

[georger 197]

Photos (especially aerial photos) of Tina Bar in the
1960's would be welcome ... from any source.

Thanks,
George

[georger 197]

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Photos (especially aerial photos) of Tina Bar in the
1960's would be welcome ... from any source.

Thanks,
George

REPLY> Thanks Sluggo! Received!!

Georger

[skyjack71 0]

CKRET - Attention:
Only here to show CKRET something I have been Holding. Read the article. CKRET: Pay attention .

I told you about this, but you kept up your insistent argument that the system was infallible. Remember our conversation about 10 months ago on the phone!

You have also been recently notified that the FBI does not have comprehensive left hand prints of Duane L. Weber in the MASTER. Duane was LEFT handed.

For once APOLOGIZE - YOU made a MISTAKE and the FBI makes MISTAKES - such as Ruby Ridge.

It is about time the FBI made a concerted effort to right the wrongs of yesterdays.

See you in WA.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 20]

welcome back Jo. Really! Stick around. No need to go off in a huff.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Got my 8/71 Northwest Orient System Timetable.
It raises a couple of questions. (it might say Cooper didn't plan it in 8/71?)

First, it feels eerie thumbing thru it..I picture Cooper flipping thru one very similar. But not this one.

While 8/71 is very close to 11/71, it appears that it's not close enough. Flight 305 in 8/71, went direct to Spokane then Portland, from Great Falls. No stop at Seatac. They must have changed 305 by 11/24/71? Or maybe a special holiday schedule?

I'll break out interesting things:

1) Aircraft operated by Northwest: 747, 707-320, 720B, 727S, 727. There is usually no indication of plane used per flight. 747's are marked on some flights. (747 was new then). Don't think Cooper picked 727 from the schedule. It's possible 727 was just the most likely plane, if Northwest was chosen for domestic flight?

2) There were many flights from PDX to Seatac during the day. Assuming these flights stayed constant till 11/24/71, it appears Flight 305 might have been the last Northwest flight to arrive in Seatac before 5PM. Maybe that dictated it's choice, more than anything.
Northwest PDX to Seatac flights (daily)
8AM Flight 78
9:15AM Flight 87
11:05AM Flight 70
1:00PM Flight 103 (Cooper bought his ticket around 2PM? so 305 may have been the next flight)
The following flights all arrived at Seatac after 5PM
4:40PM Flight 735
5:00PM Flight 537
9:00PM Flight 723
10:10PM Flight 42
11:00pm Flight 700

3) The only other destinations out of Portland (for Northwest) were:
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
Rochester, Minn.
Seoul, Korea
Spokane
Taipei, Taiwan
Tampa, St. Petersburg
Tokyo, Japan
Washington, Baltimore
Winnipeg, Man. Canada

Not as many time choices for those flights. Generally earlier in the day.
It's possible Seatac was chosen as a destination just because of flights scheduled out of PDX, not because of familiarity.

4) The itinerary for Flight 305 in the back pages on 8/71 was:
Washington-Cleveland,
Cleveland-Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minneapolis/St.Paul-Great Falls,
Great Falls-Spokane,
Spokane-Portland.


5) Looking at Flights leaving Great Falls:
Flight 305 Leaves for Spokane at 11:55am and arrives at 11:47am
Flight 305 leaves for Portland at 11:55am and arrives at 1:07PM
Flight 305/105 leaves for Seatac at 11:55am and arrives at 1:12pm (I assume this means you get on flight 105 when you arrive in Spokane)

The key thing is that on 8/71 flight 305 would terminate at 1:07PM in Portland. On 8/71 there was no continuation to Seatac, unless you took Flight 735 at 4:40PM. But it was better to take Flight 105 from Spokane, if you wanted to get to Seatac earlier.

Somehow Flight 305 got a new leg by 11/24/71, I guess, to Seatac. Maybe to cover the gap in flights between 1PM and 4:40PM. Maybe it was a special holiday schedule?

6) Interestingly, Northwest had no flights from the northwest going south to San Francisico and LA. They mostly had flights going straight across to the Northeast, or down to Florida from Chicago. They had flights from the Northeast to San Fran and LA.
Minneapolis, St, Paul was a key intermediate point. But there were the odd places in Montana, Idaho, and North Dakota too.

7) What's odd is that it's well documented that on 11/24/71 Flight 305 went
Washington DC -> Minneapolis -> Great Falls (which matches the above)
but then it stopped in Missoula, then did the leg to Spokane, then Portland. It then continued on to Seatac, which is the leg Cooper was on.

Michael Cooper was the passenger picked up in Missoula.

So the Missoula stop was new, and the extra leg to Seatac was new.
The 8/71 schedule shows Missoula to Spokane (then continuing to Porland) being flights 103 & 109 at 11:27AM & 6:14PM.
So the new 305 stop was more of a mid-day stop in Missoula.

8) (edit) There were a lot of Seatac to PDX flights during the day...about the same as PDX to Seatac. But maybe Cooper chose the direction he did because of his thinking on getting chutes/money easier in Seattle?



Oh, another comment on when search areas were defined. Found a newspaper article on 11/27/71 that said:
"The FBI said the search was being concentrated in the Cowlitz-Clark County area in southern Washington as a result of information provided by the crew and 'strictly conjecture on our part.'

An FBI spokesman said the 75 square mile area was selected because the crew reported a slight shift in the plane's balance while over this farmland region"

I guess this is the "curtsy" that we discussed very early on, but seem to have dropped discussion of?

[snowmman 3]

Missoula is interesting (see prior post on 305 flight), because if you were shopping for a smokejumper, that's were you might(likely?) have gone in 1971?

Missoula Smokejumper Base
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/smokejumpers/missoula/history.html

Amazingly, I actually found a CIA connection in the Missoula Smokejumper History at an offical forest service site: (edit) actually not amazing as there is lots of info elsewhere on this..I wasn't aware of it.
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/smokejumpers/missoula/History/General/daniels.htm

Jerry "Hog" Daniels

Excerpted from "Hmong Voices in Montana" by the Missoula Museum of the Arts Foundation. Susan Lindbergh Miller, Bounthavy Kiatoukaysy Thao, Tou Yang, editors. 1992.

"A little-known fact is that Smoke Jumpers from Montana were recruited by the CIA to work in Laos. Some collaborated with General Vang Pao who would later move his family to Montana.

Among these was Jerrold B. Daniels from Missoula who, in the early 1960's, became the liaison officer between Vang Pao and the CIA. For twenty years he worked closely with the Hmong and became a trusted friend. When the communists took over Laos in 1975 and United States pulled out, thousands of Hmong fled across the Mekong river to Thailand where they lived in refugee camps.

Until his death in 1982, Jerry Daniels remained in Southeast Asia. As chief Ethnic Affairs Officer in charge of the Highlander and Lao refugees, he helped his Hmong friends both in the camps and in resettlement in the United States.

Jerry Daniels died at the age of 41 in his home in Bangkok on April 29, 1982. His body was shipped back to Montana where Hmong friends and colleagues gathered from all over the United States to pay final tribute to their beloved friend at a traditional Hmong funeral ceremony.

[snowmman 3]

You guys probably know all the stories about the CIA front operation called Intermountain Aviation, in Marana, Arizona.

There are lots of web pages. A nice background is at:
http://www.bollyn.com/index/?id=10684
which gives estimates for the amount of CIA employment of smokejumpers:

"From the mid-1950s until the mid-1970s, the CIA actively recruited paramilitary personnel from the smokejumper program, particularly at the Forest Service's Region One fire base at Missoula, Mont., and a satellite base at McCall, Idaho. As many as one-fourth of the smokejumpers at those bases worked at least part time for the CIA."

This story is a well known one, (for 377, although he probably knows about it already). Intermountain was also connected to air drops in Laos, and the guy previously mentioned.

quoting a web page:
"In Project Coldfeet: Secret Mission to a Soviet Ice Station by William M. Leary and Leonard A. LeSchack (1996), I read what Jerry had done in the Arctic. In 1962 an Intermountain Aviation B-17 with the Fulton Skyhook apparatus and a number of jumpers in the crew parachuted a Navy officer and an Air Force officer on to an abandoned Soviet ice station and gave them three days to sort out important intelligence material. (The Fulton Skyhook has two arms or “horns” extending from the nose of the aircraft that engage a 500-foot rope held aloft by a helium balloon and tethered on the ground to an object or person to be picked up.) The B-17 returned and picked up the intelligence material and officers in three passes. Jerry was the winch operator who brought the cargo and people on board. In 1963 the same aircraft with Jerry as winch operator picked up the body of an American scientist who died of a heart attack on a U.S. ice station."

[377 20]

The pilot of our DC 3 (Southern Cross) at WFFC 2005 was Dick Delaplane. He flew paradrop missions in Laos back in the day. I think he flew a C 46 on those flights. He was NOT in the military when he flew those missions. There was a lot of monkey business going on in Laos and Cambodia back then.

I remember flying over Intermountain's facility near Marana Az. They had all sorts of planes down there including 747s. It was HUGE, almost like a major airport, but very private.

I didn't know that the Fulton skyhook was ever used operationally. Interesting info.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

too many good accounts online.. some snips

http://www.smokejumpers.com/smokejumper_magazine/item.php?articles_id=353&magazine_editions_id=24

Marana Special Projects

“Between 1962 and 1975, we worked on different research-and-development projects out of Marana Airpark, near Tucson, Arizona. Projects we tested included a ‘para-wing’ with a remote-control device and a parachute with a built-in guidance system that could zero in on a ground frequency system commonly known as a ground-to-air beacon device. Also, we tested the Parachute Impact System, which played a huge role in the secret war in Laos. This parachute allowed the pilot to fly high enough to keep out of range of small-arms fire. We worked with the Forest Service and BLM in…support of [combating] wildfire. From New Mexico to Alaska, we worked with the CIA and assisted in airborne training back in Williamsburg, Virginia.”

The Secret War

“From 1965-1973, many smokejumpers worked as air-operations and case officers in Northern and Southern Laos. North, East, South or West, we were there. In 1969 and 1971, we supported General Vang Pao's Hmong Army to take the Plain de Jars. I was wounded February 14, 1971, at General Vang Pao's secret base, known as Long Tieng, or Lima Site 20A. I always felt it was a Valentine’s gift from Ho Chi Minh.”

...

"When it came to jumping out of any type of aircraft, helicopters included, there was no fear. If we wanted to sit down together and figure out how many types of aircraft we jumped and rappelled out of, I would say between 30 and 40. Many of these were experimental jumps with experimental or peculiar types of equipment"

''''

"At the north end of the airstrip we had a barricade of barrels filled with dirt and stacked three high. The purpose of the barrels was to stop the aircraft before they hit the limestone karst. I witnessed two T-28s landing with their hydraulics shot out. Before the pilots hit the barricade, they ejected at ground zero. Out they go, and the parachute would open about 75 feet off the ground. Both pilots survived."

[georger 197]

Quote

Got my 8/71 Northwest Orient System Timetable.
It raises a couple of questions. (it might say Cooper didn't plan it in 8/71?)

First, it feels eerie thumbing thru it..I picture Cooper flipping thru one very similar. But not this one.

While 8/71 is very close to 11/71, it appears that it's not close enough. Flight 305 in 8/71, went direct to Spokane then Portland, from Great Falls. No stop at Seatac. They must have changed 305 by 11/24/71? Or maybe a special holiday schedule?

REPLY>

Not an established route but a new or special
(one time only?) route. This may help explain why
there weren't too many on board, and it adds to the
sense of vulnerability of the flight especially if
Cooper had been observing this route and looking for an opportunity.

George

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

Got my 8/71 Northwest Orient System Timetable.
It raises a couple of questions. (it might say Cooper didn't plan it in 8/71?)

First, it feels eerie thumbing thru it..I picture Cooper flipping thru one very similar. But not this one.

While 8/71 is very close to 11/71, it appears that it's not close enough. Flight 305 in 8/71, went direct to Spokane then Portland, from Great Falls. No stop at Seatac. They must have changed 305 by 11/24/71? Or maybe a special holiday schedule?

REPLY>

Not an established route but a new or special
(one time only?) route. This may help explain why
there weren't too many on board, and it adds to the
sense of vulnerability of the flight especially if
Cooper had been observing this route and looking for an opportunity.

George

Yeah it's odd. Remember though the normal timetable may have changed by 11/71.

On the one hand, you could say Cooper just seemed to walk in and say "give me the next flight to Seattle"...and it just happened to be the last one arriving in Seattle before 5:00, and it was special/new, since 8/71 at least. (edit) But he knew he had to get the money from the banks before 5:00??? or did he?

You've mentioned him scouting the route. The likely two planes were going to be 707 or 727. Either he didn't care, or he checked it out. There's some myth about him asking at the counter, but I don't think so?

It's interesting that back then Cooper didn't have to worry about being overbooked around Thanksgiving...no advance ticketing needed. He wasn't worried about a seat?

And the whole Washington, Minneapolis, Great Falls, Missoula, Spokane, Portland, Seattle itinerary for 305 bugs me. It was the last leg of a very long flight itinerary.

If he was from Seattle, or wanted the chutes from Seattle, why didn't he hijack a plane from Spokane to Seattle? (I'll have to check those, but some existed). Why go to Portland? So he wouldn't be recognized?

It makes more sense that he was from Portland, and Seattle was the only logical choice. But why risk being recognized at PDX (in the future?)

I'm wondering if Cooper was really from neither Portland, nor Seattle area.

(edit) it would be interesting if most of the other PDX to Seattle flights were 707, not 727. Don't have that info. If they were all 727, that would mean I don't know what.

(edit) Or why didn't he just hijack any plane out of PDX, and say "we're going to Seattle to get some stuff" I guess then you have to worry about other planes in the air in your way? Better to pick one that's already going where you want?

• Quote

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Got my 8/71 Northwest Orient System Timetable.
It raises a couple of questions. (it might say Cooper didn't plan it in 8/71?)

First, it feels eerie thumbing thru it..I picture Cooper flipping thru one very similar. But not this one.

While 8/71 is very close to 11/71, it appears that it's not close enough. Flight 305 in 8/71, went direct to Spokane then Portland, from Great Falls. No stop at Seatac. They must have changed 305 by 11/24/71? Or maybe a special holiday schedule?

REPLY>

Not an established route but a new or special
(one time only?) route. This may help explain why
there weren't too many on board, and it adds to the
sense of vulnerability of the flight especially if
Cooper had been observing this route and looking for an opportunity.

George

Yeah it's odd. Remember though the normal timetable may have changed by 11/71.

On the one hand, you could say Cooper just seemed to walk in and say "give me the next flight to Seattle"...and it just happened to be the last one arriving in Seattle before 5:00, and it was special/new, since 8/71 at least. (edit) But he knew he had to get the money from the banks before 5:00??? or did he?

You've mentioned him scouting the route. The likely two planes were going to be 707 or 727. Either he didn't care, or he checked it out. There's some myth about him asking at the counter, but I don't think so?

It's interesting that back then Cooper didn't have to worry about being overbooked around Thanksgiving...no advance ticketing needed. He wasn't worried about a seat?

And the whole Washington, Minneapolis, Great Falls, Missoula, Spokane, Portland, Seattle itinerary for 305 bugs me. It was the last leg of a very long flight itinerary.

If he was from Seattle, or wanted the chutes from Seattle, why didn't he hijack a plane from Spokane to Seattle? (I'll have to check those, but some existed). Why go to Portland? So he wouldn't be recognized?

It makes more sense that he was from Portland, and Seattle was the only logical choice. But why risk being recognized at PDX (in the future?)

I'm wondering if Cooper was really from neither Portland, nor Seattle area.

(edit) it would be interesting if most of the other PDX to Seattle flights were 707, not 727. Don't have that info. If they were all 727, that would mean I don't know what.

(edit) Or why didn't he just hijack any plane out of PDX, and say "we're going to Seattle to get some stuff" I guess then you have to worry about other planes in the air in your way? Better to pick one that's already going where you want?

REPLY:

I have to believe he picked a plane he thought (or
knew) he could get out of which could also be
configured for a successful jump. To me that
selects a 727. (Sluggo may have other thoughts?)

I suggested long ago passenger lists for the PDX-
SEATAC route be searched to look for a phony name
which did not connect to a real person, on the premise he is picking a route to hijack.

The sudden switch to a flight that will put him out
the door but in the dark in early evening leaving time
to maneuver and escape on the ground, this makes
305 that afternoon the perfect flight. But how long
before the flight had it been published?

I cant accept him chosing this flight was an accident.
It's too perfect for his agenda.

He new the area. He knew Tacoma from the air.
He knew something about the likely turn-around
time on the ground at SEA (as Sluggo pointed out
and explained here long ago). He knew McChord
was there and parachutes would be available. He
knew that on Thanksgiving Eve after a long day
for the crew and everyone else, on a routine 30
minute last flight milk run, people's guard would
be down expecting nothing but a break and relaxation ahead ... and he strikes?

His 'bomb' was pre-assembled. His note pre-written in his pocket as he got on the plane (unless Ckret
says otherwise).

I would actually prefer this was a coincidence or
put together quickly just before the flight - that
would explain a few things. But the facts say
premeditated.

Great work Snowmman!!!

Georger

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[snowmman 3]

Quote

REPLY:

I have to believe he picked a plane he thought (or
knew) he could get out of which could also be
configured for a successful jump. To me that
selects a 727. (Sluggo may have other thoughts?)

I suggested long ago passenger lists for the PDX-
SEATAC route be searched to look for a phony name
which did not connect to a real person, on the premise he is picking a route to hijack.

The sudden switch to a flight that will put him out
the door but in the dark in early evening leaving time
to maneuver and escape on the ground, this makes
305 that afternoon the perfect flight. But how long
before the flight had it been published?

I cant accept him chosing this flight was an accident.
It's too perfect for his agenda.

He new the area. He knew Tacoma from the air.
He knew something about the likely turn-around
time on the ground at SEA (as Sluggo pointed out
and explained here long ago). He knew McChord
was there and parachutes would be available. He
knew that on Thanksgiving Eve after a long day
for the crew and everyone else, on a routine 30
minute last flight milk run, people's guard would
be down expecting nothing but a break and relaxation ahead ... and he strikes?

His 'bomb' was pre-assembled. His note pre-written in his pocket as he got on the plane (unless Ckret
says otherwise).

I would actually prefer this was a coincidence or
put together quickly just before the flight - that
would explain a few things. But the facts say
premeditated.

Great work Snowmman!!!

Georger

we need more flight schedules I guess, from closer to 11/71. I noticed they had published a special schedule for when the pilots were striking, in 1970. So schedules did change. Don't know if there were special holiday schedules. Don't know if they printed new schedules every month, even?

Am I'm not sure if we're going to be able to identify which flights were 707 vs 727 from the timetables in '71. We can tell that they weren't 747. (they bragged about the 747 flights)

But knowing when flight 305 started adding the final leg to Seatac (from PDX) would be interesting (between 8/1/71 and 11/24/71).
I'm also curious about when the stop in Missoula got added.

(edit) I added the departures from Portland and the departures from Great Falls (which shows 305) from the timetable. This backs up everything I said before. The first two show the 8/1/71 effective date.

(edit) added some of the flight itineraries for Northwest..including 305.

(edit) It appears that Cooper could have flown first class for just $25. But he decided to go with the $20 coach fare. (all the portland to seattle flights then available were that price)

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

REPLY:

I have to believe he picked a plane he thought (or
knew) he could get out of which could also be
configured for a successful jump. To me that
selects a 727. (Sluggo may have other thoughts?)

I suggested long ago passenger lists for the PDX-
SEATAC route be searched to look for a phony name
which did not connect to a real person, on the premise he is picking a route to hijack.

The sudden switch to a flight that will put him out
the door but in the dark in early evening leaving time
to maneuver and escape on the ground, this makes
305 that afternoon the perfect flight. But how long
before the flight had it been published?

I cant accept him chosing this flight was an accident.
It's too perfect for his agenda.

He new the area. He knew Tacoma from the air.
He knew something about the likely turn-around
time on the ground at SEA (as Sluggo pointed out
and explained here long ago). He knew McChord
was there and parachutes would be available. He
knew that on Thanksgiving Eve after a long day
for the crew and everyone else, on a routine 30
minute last flight milk run, people's guard would
be down expecting nothing but a break and relaxation ahead ... and he strikes?

His 'bomb' was pre-assembled. His note pre-written in his pocket as he got on the plane (unless Ckret
says otherwise).

I would actually prefer this was a coincidence or
put together quickly just before the flight - that
would explain a few things. But the facts say
premeditated.

Great work Snowmman!!!

Georger

we need more flight schedules I guess, from closer to 11/71. I noticed they had published a special schedule for when the pilots were striking, in 1970. So schedules did change. Don't know if there were special holiday schedules. Don't know if they printed new schedules every month, even?

Am I'm not sure if we're going to be able to identify which flights were 707 vs 727 from the timetables in '71. We can tell that they weren't 747. (they bragged about the 747 flights)

But knowing when flight 305 started adding the final leg to Seatac (from PDX) would be interesting (between 8/1/71 and 11/24/71).
I'm also curious about when the stop in Missoula got added.

(edit) I added the departures from Portland and the departures from Great Falls (which shows 305) from the timetable. This backs up everything I said before. The first two show the 8/1/71 effective date.

(edit) added some of the flight itineraries for Northwest..including 305.

(edit) It appears that Cooper could have flown first class for just $25. But he decided to go with the $20 coach fare. (all the portland to seattle flights then available were that price)

REPLY> I wonder who set the schedules, and where?
My guess is Minneapolis. This trully is a midwestern
airline. Look at the route map. He picked the west-
most route (a north-south short leg) removed from the midwestern heartland, the east coast urban area, and a route over remote country. He didnt
pick Minneapolis as his starting place or he could
have gone directly south-west ... funny he asked to go to Mexico City (from SEA!) when he had these other choices but require a different start point.

He picked an area he was familiar with. But, his
midwestern acent, a midwestern airline, skeds coming out of Minneapolis??, ... its tempting to
add this up ..... Im just ruminating...

G

[Orange1 0]

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He picked an area he was familiar with. But, his
midwestern acent, a midwestern airline, skeds coming out of Minneapolis??, ... its tempting to
add this up ..... Im just ruminating...

G

midwestern accent? i thought the eye (ear)witness descriptions were all "no accent".. we had a debate about what "no accent" means some time ago...

btw.. please don't make me think of you as a cow, which is the first thing that comes to (my) mind when someone says they are ruminating yes I know you meant the other meaning, but still...

Quote

Main Entry: ru·mi·nate
Pronunciation: \ˈrü-mə-ˌnāt\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): ru·mi·nat·ed; ru·mi·nat·ing
Etymology: Latin ruminatus, past participle of ruminari to chew the cud, muse upon, from rumin-, rumen rumen; perhaps akin to Sanskrit romantha act of chewing the cud
Date: 1533
transitive verb
1 : to go over in the mind repeatedly and often casually or slowly
2 : to chew repeatedly for an extended period
intransitive verb
1 : to chew again what has been chewed slightly and swallowed : chew the cud
2 : to engage in contemplation : reflect

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

I was thinking of that flight map of Northwest's I just posted..and how there were no used routes going south...not even to SF or LA, from the northwest.

i.e. they had no experience going on the necessary airways.

I was thinking Sluggo might have a field day theorizing about that.

But then I thought: This whole "don't fly above 10k ft" demand...Cooper had no way of verifying it..i.e. they could have flown at 12,000, and what's Cooper going to do? measure it and bitch? No matter what, they could just say "No we're at 10,000"

So I'm wondering now if that means that all of this deduction about flight path based on altitude requirements is kind of bogus...i.e. Ckret's point of view might be more valid..he didn't care where they went.

He could easily tell if demands were being met by a time. He could maybe tell if the flaps were down and the wheels down (sound?)

But how could he tell how high they were flying? I guess maybe he might have known about the automatic release of oxygen masks that we've discussed (what around 12,000 ft?)

So maybe that was his marker? Fly low enough so he can tell if they're doing it right, without an altimeter?

If he was really planning on jumping further south, then maybe the plan doesn't sound so bad, since the rain stops further south, and it's not as chilly...

So maybe that's why he didn't abort on rain in Seattle/PDX? because it didn't matter for his initial plan...

if he changed his plan in mid-flight like georger is saying, then all of a sudden it sounds like a bad plan with the rain/cold.

just ruminating. Heh there's a researcher named S.D.B. Cooper who's written on the rumen/rumination of sheep...really.

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

He picked an area he was familiar with. But, his
midwestern acent, a midwestern airline, skeds coming out of Minneapolis??, ... its tempting to
add this up ..... Im just ruminating...

G

midwestern accent? i thought the eye (ear)witness descriptions were all "no accent".. we had a debate about what "no accent" means some time ago...


REPLY>

Everyone has an accent (phonetic signature).
Midwestern 'accent' is an accent. (regional classes associated with Midwestern speech).

She might have meant: 'I heard no Foreign accent'.
But very likely if Coopper had said "Y'all git dem grits' she would have said, "He doesnt come from 'round here!'.

I used the word ruminating because in fact Ive
been trying to get barns painted before winter and stepping in cowshit a lot lately ...

George

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