DB Cooper

[377 20]

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Thanks Tom, I look forward to reading it. Let us know where and when at the appropriate time please. (Yes, I know you probably would have).

377 - Some personality disorders increase the ability to manipulate others. Pychopaths/Sociopaths are a good example. Ted Bundy was known to be very charming, Charles Manson was also very good at it.

Snowmman - I know we won't find the exact models. I was mainly posting the link for those who want to see the hardware. I just got my textbooks and was a little surprised to see how much detail is in the Poynter texts.

Bruce - Given how much off the wall crap has been posted here, suggestions of personality disorders are well within reason. Can you make any good guesses as to what specific disorders and why you think so?

I wish we could get Dan Poynter to post here once in a while about the gear. You just never know what he might see that we mortals miss. The riggers here know all about the practical aspects of NB6s and surplus canopies, but Poynter could tell you which batch of Navy harness snaps were substandard due to improper heat treatment, how the color standard for sage green is calibrated and which manuafacturers' springs held their characteristics the longest in MA1 pilot chutes.

As far as personality disorders go, read a few entries from this DSM IV (shrink bible) summary and see if you can recognize any of your friends or spouses described therein:

http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/_misc/complete_tables.htm

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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Your welcome 377. I had told you guys that I was given some maps by a friend and that I would pick them up when I was in washougal.This I did they were'nt what I thought they would be. What they turned out to be was 4-D matic maps dated 1973 contour interval 200ft with supplementary contours at 100ft intervals horizontal scale 1:250,000;vertical scale 1:125,000 (exaggeration 2:1) Transverse mercator projection revised in 1974 the map shows the entire area from north of woodland washington to south of silverton oregon. from the ocean to east of Mt Hood. What is good about these maps is they show the origial logging roads that were there for that time frame and not the was added after 1974.Probably not of much interest to anyone but me. I thought they were flight path maps from 1971. My mistake

Interesting. Is that the only copy that exists?

[snowmman 3]

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with respect to the nb6 , you are wrong. the most recent ones look almost identical to the older ones, just minor (i.e. subtle changes).

Hi nitrochute.

Can you list the minor changes?
I noticed purple webbing (small amount) on the modern ones. Don't think they had that in 1971. Got me thinking about nylon back in the '60s.

Any guesses on what year the Cossey model may have been from?
(based on what might have been typical for surplus sales back then)

I have some older NB8 ( I believe) pics.
If you could summarize what you think the minor deltas were, then I'll dig up whatever I've got and see if it triggers any thoughts.

(edit) The older pics, and discovery that not all NB6's came from one manufacturer, is what got me down this train of thought. Obviously I have little data, and am guessing a little.

[nitrochute 2]

while all nb6's are not made by the same manufacturer, they are ALL built to the same specifications,drawings etc..
what is this purple webbing you are referencing? military deals in sage green or olive drab.

[JerryThomas 0]

I realy don't know its made of plastic. It was mounted on cardboard and hung on a office wall from 1974 untill last year.

[BruceSmith 3]

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I just talked to Ralph and asked your question he says he flew all kinds of trainers, piper, cessna taylors, spearman ,AT6's, P40's and P51's .

Ralph's had a busy day. He called me today, ever gracious, to say he did not want to correspond regarding my DB Cooper research. I had sent him a draft mansucript of what my findings and speculations have been.

[snowmman 3]

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while all nb6's are not made by the same manufacturer, they are ALL built to the same specifications,drawings etc..
what is this purple webbing you are referencing? military deals in sage green or olive drab.

Hi nitrochute.
I posted about this before, when I was talking about Sluggo's site.
He has a picture of a more modern NB-6 here
http://n467us.com/Photo%20Evidence_files/image108.jpg

After I saw some pics of NB* rigs from the 50s and 60s, I started wondering. I believe I tracked down that model in the picture, to the 90s. I'll have to go back and check.
But notice the purple trim webbing.
My guess is that's one minimal thing Cooper's rig didn't have.

The older pics I saw of other NB* rigs, even made me wonder if there were variations in how the straps were adjusted..

There's a question: was there variation in sliders etc?

We talked about whether or not Cooper adjusted the rig. Unclear.
But obviously if there was variation there, and we're looking at a new picture, assessing the difficulty of adjusting would be wrong.

I'm also curious about all the nylon webbing, compared to what a 1960s era rig would have used. My old pics had sadder looking webbing.

[snowmman 3]

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I just talked to Ralph and asked your question he says he flew all kinds of trainers, piper, cessna taylors, spearman ,AT6's, P40's and P51's .

Ralph's had a busy day. He called me today, ever gracious, to say he did not want to correspond regarding my DB Cooper research. I had sent him a draft mansucript of what my findings and speculations have been.

What was Ralph doing?
You're obviously C-list Bruce.
Heck I got communication from Ralph today, about what planes he flew. You call yourself a journalist?
:)

[snowmman 3]

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I realy don't know its made of plastic. It was mounted on cardboard and hung on a office wall from 1974 untill last year.

Who's office?

Are there any markings on it? Any wear marks?
People typically touch those plastic maps to show features to visitors and wear off markings in certain areas.
Good clues sometimes.

[nitrochute 2]

those are actually BLACK cotton elastic webbing"keepers'. they hold the excess webbing once the harness is adjusted to the wearer.
round parachutes generally do not use sliders, as the opening characteristics are MUCH different than ram air parachutes.(there are some recent slider equipped rounds being produced, but not relevent to coopers rig)
that picture shows a standard nb6/nb8 HARNESS (used on both nb6 or nb8 containers)they are pretty much all the same.some had adjustable V rings on the leg straps where the adjustable quick ejector is in the picture,and a non adjustable quick ejector where the v ring is in the picture.)
the navy uses a rather distinctive webbibg on its harnesses.it is not type 13 like the army and airforce use.i dont recall the mil spec, but the navy webbing is slightly stronger than type13 and is a bit more coarse of a weave,and has a black tracer running down only one edge of the webbing.
HOWEVER in looking for sominfo on the chute that was dug up a year ago , i came upon an article in the new orleans newspaer that quotes cossey as saying he would" know the harness because he made it." yet i have seen a quote somewheres from cossey that states it was a stock nb6 .so who knows???

[snowmman 3]

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those are actually BLACK cotton elastic webbing"keepers'. they hold the excess webbing once the harness is adjusted to the wearer.
round parachutes generally do not use sliders, as the opening characteristics are MUCH different than ram air parachutes.(there are some recent slider equipped rounds being produced, but not relevent to coopers rig)
that picture shows a standard nb6/nb8 HARNESS (used on both nb6 or nb8 containers)they are pretty much all the same.some had adjustable V rings on the leg straps where the adjustable quick ejector is in the picture,and a non adjustable quick ejector where the v ring is in the picture.)
the navy uses a rather distinctive webbibg on its harnesses.it is not type 13 like the army and airforce use.i dont recall the mil spec, but the navy webbing is slightly stronger than type13 and is a bit more coarse of a weave,and has a black tracer running down only one edge of the webbing.
HOWEVER in looking for sominfo on the chute that was dug up a year ago , i came upon an article in the new orleans newspaer that quotes cossey as saying he would" know the harness because he made it." yet i have seen a quote somewheres from cossey that states it was a stock nb6 .so who knows???

hey nitrochute, thanks for the post. 377 is right, it's a LOT better when we get posts from someone who knows WTF stuff is about.
(edit) that's a compliment, in case it's not obvious.

In the past I had mused over this whole question of "did Cooper adjust the harness". I was wondering if it was sized for Cossey, if he could have got it on, and just left it as is. Maybe non-optimal. If so, maybe contribute to a no-pull a little. I was reading about these cases where the rip handle floats away and I was wondering about a maladjusted harness etc.

Obviously I'm clueless, but I was wondering about all the issues around adjusting or not-adjusting the harness.

I would think it would be a lot easier to look like you knew what you were doing, if you stepped into a harness that was just about adjusted for you to start with.

(edit) oh by way of example: I meant sliders on webbing for adjusting. You can see I don't know how they adjust or the webbing. I realize you're talking about sliders as part of the canopy/deployment.

I guess me, whuffo, would be looking for triple bar metal sliders or something to adjust on the webbing. Don't know how it actually works.

[georger 197]

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Tom K said
"From what I understand the dredge spill is not very efficient at keeping sand up on the beach. It forms its own river that flows back to the Columbia and takes a bunch of sand with it. Hence half the sand ends back up in the water along the shore and you get the bump you see in the pics. "


When we were looking for alternative transports, we were looking at things like storm drainage etc.

It's interesting that this dredge slurry formed a temporary "river" draining back down.

The money could have been deposited somewhere way up shore in '71, then eroded down by the slurry in '74

What's bizarre is I can't understand this clay layer theory.

Reply> The original aluvial clay in there, usually covered by one or more sand layers. The whole purpose of the dredging was to replensih the
beach. That is, to add sand above the clay layer
probably becoming exposed at the waterline. Once
the deeper compacted clay layer which supports the beach is undercut then then the whole beach can drop and wash away.

The '74 photos show the amount of material
which settled down from the dredge deposits
higher on the beach. (A tractor was also used to
move material around and compact it higher on
the beach.)

It is possible the money had already been at
Tina Bar since '71, covered over by an original deposit of sand layed down by the same event
that brought the money to T-Bar, in 71. The
realtively deep but lose dredge waste slumps
and covers this area (good protection for the money), erosion between 74-79 reduces this
layer, and the money is finally exposed in 80 -
Ingrams finds some.

If there were money fragments above and below
the bundles found that adds up to a vertical
placement, vs horizontal.

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[georger 197]

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Everyone please understand that in order to publish a scientific paper, they require that you not release pertinent data ahead of time. You actually have to sign a statement that this is true. While I would love to chat it up with all the details, specifics of what we found on the money etc have to wait until after its published.

My job in publishing it will be to provide enough data that outsiders can reprocess and reevaluate the results independently. This should give everyone lots of (cannon?) fodder.

Jerry I don't think I mentioned it to you specifically while we were together, but please do not post details about or findings.

By the way Jerry was a BIG help on the trip and certainly knows the area like the back of his hand. He is close friends with H and I think is a reliable source of info on both the area and what H has related in the past.

Thanks

Tom

Agree - so Snow we simply cannot talk about it. Sorry. Tom is going a long way discussing as much
as he has. ....

Jerry I havent called because Im up to my ears in
things but will try tomorrow night if all goes well
tomorrow - Thanks

[georger 197]

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All,

A lot has happened on this end this morning. I can no longer discuss FBI archive info with the public. We will be able to release info in the published paper.

Before the window closes, I can tell you that there probably was a clay layer report, I am sure I must have seen it, but it was insignificant enough that I didn't bother to even photograph it.

Tom

Thanks Tom.

I don't know why you would post that there wasn't a Clay Report, if you didn't know if there was a Clay Report.

By now, you must be sensitive to how myths get created with Cooper, and I'm surprised you create them so easily.

You created the SR-71 myth. There is no data than anything happened with the SR-71, except that one line you provided.

But you fell into the trap of implying something.

It's really easy to see how people get sucked into creating myths. Everyone thinks they know stuff, or can digest stuff, better than others. And that secret data makes sense.

Good luck with your plan.

Ckret already referred to the Palmer report in prior posts. Those comments are open to discussion.

[nitrochute 2]

if cooper didnt adjust the harness, it surely could have contributed to his difficulty in getting the ripcord out of its pocket.

[snowmman 3]

georger said:
"Ckret already referred to the Palmer report in prior posts. Those comments are open to discussion. "

There is stuff in the Norjak book about the Clay Layer. But let's just analyze Ckret. I only found one post.

-Ckret never referred to Palmer by name.

-Ckret apparently mixed some stuff from the report, with his own commentary + interpretation, or interpretation from the FBI files. This is because his statement includes stuff that is pretty subjective.

-Ckret said the clay layer was from the dredging. It was never stated how this was known. (edit) Ckret's phrase was "clay deposits from the dredging"

-It was never stated where all of the sand above the clay layer came from. (edit) It is implied that some must have come from the dredging, because of the "sand and clay" phrase, but it is unclear.

-I'm assuming SafecrackingPLF must have a copy of the Clay Report, or is using some other source of information.

-Ckret said "The geologist that worked the site stated". So while there may not be a Clay Report, there must be testimony.

I've broken out the sentences and labelled them for analysis.
The only possible facts are (b) and (d).
It is unclear how (b) could have been determined. Historical records? or measurement+theory in 1980?

(d) assumes a truth of separate layers deposited in (b). The money was in sand. Was the sand from the dredging, or other sand?

(b) says "sand and clay were buried there" It is unclear if it was deposited in layers, or as one homogenous mixed-up layer.


Ckret posted on Jan 21, 2008:
(a) If cooper buried the money on the beach upon landing that is where it would have stayed undisturbed.

(b) In 1974 almost two feet of sand and clay were buried there.

(c) I am sure, if Cooper buried the money he would have put the bag at least a foot down most likely more.

(d) The geologist that worked the site stated that it would be of a certain impossibility that on its own the money could have broke through the clay deposits from the dredging and the dig showed no signs of disturbance in the clay layer.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman: where did you get that new image. Its a lot better than the Bar you Had posted. I want to thank all of you for your patients with my husband while he was with you in Vancouver. I know how hard he can be to get along with.He realy enjoyed visiting with all of you.He did complain about playing pool.Is it true all they teach in Quanico Va is how to play pool.Just a joke.Jerry realy enjoyed his time with Toms wife and Brother and sister inlaw also carrol, Brian Bruce,Al Geof, Larry and every one else. I'm sorry I couldn't make the trip. I have my animals to take care of.I would have posted on the forum while he was gone but I had my own crisiss to deal with. Anyway thank you all. Shelly

[1969912 0]

It seems to me that it would require either a mechanical shovel or significant hydraulic pressure (ala hyd mining) to dislodge clay, and not a simple suction device. Any idea what kind of dredging equipment was used? Sorry if I'm asking a question that's already been answered.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[snowmman 3]

I just noticed the '72 DZ map was previously published by Himmelsbach in the Norjak book.

When Ckret published it here, it was not new info to the public.

page 50 of the 1986 Norjak book is attached.

[snowmman 3]

verbatim from pp 110-111. Bold where I felt like it. We can discuss if there are any facts in it. George Holmes is mentioned as hydrologist. I suppose he's the "Corps of Engineers hydrologist". Palmer is also quoted having an opinion based on the state of the money, beyond the sand/clay issues.

It is unclear how Palmer identifed "the dredge layer" uniquely from the other two layers on top of it (see his statement)

I would note that Ckret's statement about "two feet" of materials is at odds with the description below. Minor point, but could mean that either Ckret or this statement is incorrect, or could be more precise.
p110

How was the money deposited in the river bank?

That question was the one most frequently being asked in the days following the Ingram discovery. Both a Portland State University geologist and a U.S. Corps of Engineers hydrologist felt the money had been deposited there by natural means. The scientists are men of solid professional reputation and background, who independently came to the conclusion that the money had been deposited by river action rather than having been hidden there. Both men visited the scene, and they did extensive research into past water levels, tides, dredging, and other factors that could have a bearing on the money having reached that particular resting spot.

Portland State University geologist Leonard Palmer discounted a theory that the cash had been deposited in 1974 by Corps of Engineers dredging operations. Palmer noted that the money had been located in a layer of coarse sand that ranged from several inches to four feet thick. He found two other distinct layers of sand and sediment on top of the material dredged from the river. Palmer also commented that the bills were worn away in a rounded fashion and matted together, further evidence they had been in the water a long time.

What shocked Agent Himmelsbach, now just weeks from retirement from the FBI, was the fact that the money was found five miles above the confluence of the Lewis River and the Columbia. Hydrologist George Holmes believed the Washoughal River was the only Columbia tributary that might have carried the cash to the location it was found. It now was obvious that the computer-pinpointed drop zone near Ariel in the Lewis River watershed was inaccurate, unless there was some way that a wad of bills had moved upstream in the Columbia, a theory quickly dispatched by the experts.

[snowmman 3]

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It seems to me that it would require either a mechanical shovel or significant hydraulic pressure (ala hyd mining) to dislodge clay, and not a simple suction device. Any idea what kind of dredging equipment was used? Sorry if I'm asking a question that's already been answered.

(edit) They have used the "clamshell" like shovels, with barges, on the Columbia. But odds are with a pipeline dredge for the '74 dredge.

They have cutterheads on pipeline dredges. They can cut rock even. Rocks get caught up in the pumps. The design of the pumps is interesting to account for max size rocks. Some handle rocks up to 24". The cutterhead is designed to cut the bottom, into pieces so that it goes thru the pump.

Obviously they don't really do rock layers that much. But they hit mixtures.

(edit) I think the max size thing that can go thru the massive dredge pumps might be bigger than 24". forget. I posted pics on this before. (edit). Don't know anything about the exact dredge used in '74 though. I explored what dredges the Portland Corps of Engineers was using then, but ended up uncertain.

Tosaw published the size (diameter) of the pipeline dredge he believes was used in '74. This is important because you can infer the size of the cutterhead, and pump and max size of passed material from the diameter Tosaw published.

However, this has all been dismissed (passing thru the pipe) for unknown reasons. No report, other than Ckret commenting on testimony from the dredge operator. (unknown name).

Unknown if Tosaw talked to someone else.

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman: where did you get that new image. Its a lot better than the Bar you Had posted. I want to thank all of you for your patients with my husband while he was with you in Vancouver. I know how hard he can be to get along with.He realy enjoyed visiting with all of you.He did complain about playing pool.Is it true all they teach in Quanico Va is how to play pool.Just a joke.Jerry realy enjoyed his time with Toms wife and Brother and sister inlaw also carrol, Brian Bruce,Al Geof, Larry and every one else. I'm sorry I couldn't make the trip. I have my animals to take care of.I would have posted on the forum while he was gone but I had my own crisiss to deal with. Anyway thank you all. Shelly

Hello Shelly.
Which new image? Of Tena Bar? The montage georger posted (I created that from the 3 FBI photos in the '70s, plus a current Google Earth photo.

We have very high quality photos of the Fazio's from overhead now. I published those before.

I've published an ever larger montage of Tena Bar (some fuzzy) from the '90s thru now. We discussed those because fishermen (apparently) parking were visible.

(edit) Shelly: Google Maps allows you to get the same resolution photos now, as Google Earth (in most cases).

If you're curious, you can use Google Maps to zoom into a location at even higher resolution than some of the recently posted photos.

We've posted tens of photos of anything one could dream about, so I'm not going to repost any, but will post a link you can click on if you're curious about something.

(edit) Shelly: we use photoediting software to zoom the FBI photos and rotate them. So you might not recognize the areas from other photos. They are small in other photos. Big when we post them. We crop out unnecessary stuff.

I've never done any enhancement, adjusting brightness/sharpness etc, because I don't want to be accused of distorting a picture to lean towards a bias.

I did post a picture of a counterfeit Cooper bill, with a correct serial number. And a Seattle FBI business card with Sluggo's name on it. Lots of stuff.

[skyjack71 0]

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What's bizarre is I can't understand this clay layer theory.

The dredge spoils don't come in different categories. It's all mixed up.

When the orginal study was done it showed the different layers - so it must exist. Right Dredge spoils don't come in different categories.

Who is saying what? Is Kaye disputing photos of the soil layers from 1980?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[BruceSmith 3]

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I just talked to Ralph and asked your question he says he flew all kinds of trainers, piper, cessna taylors, spearman ,AT6's, P40's and P51's .

Ralph's had a busy day. He called me today, ever gracious, to say he did not want to correspond regarding my DB Cooper research. I had sent him a draft mansucript of what my findings and speculations have been.

What was Ralph doing?
You're obviously C-list Bruce.
Heck I got communication from Ralph today, about what planes he flew. You call yourself a journalist?
:)

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Gee, C-list. I didn't think I had made a list. As for brow-beating Ralph, I've already gotten a ton from his book, and for that I'm grateful. I can give the guy a pass.

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[snowmman 3]

9 photos attached.

NB6 1-4 are the same NB6 rig that Sluggo posted.
It is/was for sale on Ebay. It had a 28' C-9 canopy packed in it. I can't find the reference for the year right now.

I've included two shots that Sluggo didn't have, that have closeups of the writing on the NB6.

The two photos labelled NB6_1958*, are the 1958 Switlik NB6.
The 2nd photo has the writing on the rig, that identifies it as such.

I don't have a picture of the rig showing the straps though.

The third pair of photos, labeled Navy_NB6* does show the straps. Unclear of the year, although it seems similar to the 1958 photo?

Last photo is unknown, but could it be an old NB6? The webbing looks pretty mank?

(edit) Nitrochute: can you see my point about how the Parachute_NB-6_02.jpg straps seem different? Could I have misidentified that photo? The NB6_1958 (Large) is more definitely the 1958 Switlik NB6 and the other side seems to match the one for which I have pics of the straps.