DB Cooper

[ltdiver 3]

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ran into this

nice older photo attached from 1980
(also known as Issaquah Sky Port?)

Issaquah SkySports

Was Jamey the DZO back then, or years afterward?



ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

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[georger 197]

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As far as the cord goes, there is no mystery as to what he used, I have many feet of it. it is not smooth nylon, it actually has grip to it. Which is surprising given that you would not want it to knot. It took me hours to get the knots out when I wanted to measure the length of cord he used.

sorry for another post, but just noticed something in Ckret's post that was odd.

Ckret: why did you spend hours removing knots to estimate the length of cord Cooper used?

(edit) oh wait: now I think I understand. It got knotted up in storage..i.e. tangled. When Cooper saw it there were no knots. Is that right? (you can tell I'm clueless here)

reply> small ropes are sometimes knotted for
gripping. some cultures also knots ropes as a
part of ritual-religious practice. In fact, there is
a rope knotting code in several cultures where
people send or leave messages via knots in
ropes (Dakota Sioux, Hindus, etc.) In fact, bridle
and whip loop knots in several horse cultures are used for personal identification. This has been
going on in human communities for thousands
of years. Knots are a well known form of communication and personal expression. More Jesus-in-the-Toast!


Georger

[377 21]

Shroud line doesn't tangle very badly when you just throw it in a box. Shouldn't be a lot of knots in any line that Cooper left on the plane. Might be a lot of knots in the line that Cooper jumped with, but surely Ckret would tell us if he had that... ???

Wild speculation: knotted line was found on the ground that matched line left on plane. Length is being precisely measured to see if it might be the length removed on the plane.

377

I want to join the Boeing Jump Club.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

interesting article on spontaneous formation of knots from just tumbling a string..kind of like "knots happen" ...or "shit happens" ...

Hmm. from a skydiving perspective, the idea of predicting whether cords randomly knot up by themselves would seem important! (probably depends strongly on whether the ends are loose or attached though?)

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/feature/id/9226/title/Tied_Up_in_Knots
"Now, scientists think they may have found out how and why things find their way into knotty arrangements. By tumbling a string of rope inside a box, biophysicists Dorian Raymer and Douglas Smith have discovered that knots—even complex knots—form surprisingly fast and often. The string first coils up, and then its free ends swivel around the other coils, tracing a random path among them. That essentially makes the coils into a braid, producing knots, the scientists say."
...
"Raymer never took the class, but he and Smith did come up with a simple idea for an experiment. They put a string in a cubic container the size of a box of tissue. By tumbling the box 10 times "like a laundry dryer," as Raymer puts it, the researchers hoped to observe knots forming spontaneously on occasion. They didn't have to wait for long: Knots formed right away. "The first couple of times, it was pretty amazing," Raymer says.

The researchers repeated the procedure more than 3,000 times, and knots formed about every other time. Longer strings, or more-flexible strings, tended to knot more often."

[Ckret 0]

"The Chute Had Knots"
by Larry, I mean Ckret Agent


When I pulled out all of the evidence,
The chute was packed in a box.

The chute had 36 years under its belt,
The chute had lots of knots

Taken out, put back in; again and again,
The chute had many knots

Laid out, gathered up, laid out, gathered up,
There were lots of knots.

Toil as I did to get them free,
Just to put it back in a box.

Didn't get me closer to Cooper
Perhaps it was all for not.


I am on sick leave today and bored!!!

[snowmman 3]

okay, obviously we have to keep a "sick" Ckret from getting mentally sicker. :)

Let's revisit Canopy Drift. I know people will groan like this is a rehash..but when you look back in the thread, we talked about Canopy Drift in detail only with the old DZ, not after we agreed on a new DZ.

I got to thinking about it again when I suggested that Ckret couldn't just shift the 1972 DZ calcs down south a bit and say "good enough"

I posted a picture before under the title "what we need" to get a canopy drift from a jump near 8:15 on the flight path, to Tena Bar.

I'm a fan of predicted SE winds down there, although that's debatable. (edit) remember I had posted stuff that suggests SE might be right.

I didn't get much response at the time...but I just went thru the search and found a old drift analysis/estimate from SkydiveJack on Jan 15, 2008 11:48 AM, which got me thinking about it again.

I'm going to assume we don't have accurate wind data down near PDX, and instead think about might make it work.

I was interested in whether an 8 mile or so canopy drift was possible. Assume winds were at 60 knots at exit, linearly decreasing to 20 knots at ground level. Can use 40 knot average then. Maybe also throw in 5 knots if the round chute somehow got some forward speed? So 45 knots total (avg) during the ride.

That's .75 miles/minute, right? (edit) just noticed I used wrong conversion here...45 knots would be .86 miles/minute. 40 knots is 0.77 miles/minute. I'll leave my old numbers below.

A 10 minute canopy ride would get you 7.5 miles.

(maybe the exit altitude was >10,000 ft down near PDX?)

See attached photo for a canopy drift possibility I was measuring way back in the thread. Swing it a bit to shorten it from the flight path, and you can see that 8 miles is interesting.

This is assuming 1000ft/min. descent rate

What kind of modifications to a 28' round might give it forward speed? SkydiveJack mentioned that without details. (edit) read up on panel mods. I guess we don't know if there were any.

(edit) the pt labelled "2015 guess" in the picture really isn't 2015..that's an old guess from before Ckret gave us the radar tick flight path detail. 2015 is closer to the columbia.

(edit) also remember there could be 0.5 mi to 1 mile error in the flight path recorded that could work favorably. The paper on comparing gps to radar suggested to me the 0.5 nm error prediction back in 1972 might be "light". Plus there is transcription error to map?

[Ckret 0]

Didn't Sluggo work on this as well?

I posted the winds at some point on this thread or the old one.

Attached are the forecast for 11/24/71. I don't know if you can read them, maybe print them off and use a mag of some sorts to read them. They are faded to begin with, just found these a few days ago.

[snowmman 3]

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Didn't Sluggo work on this as well?

I posted the winds at some point on this thread or the old one.

Attached are the forecast for 11/24/71. I don't know if you can read them, maybe print them off and use a mag of some sorts to read them. They are faded to begin with, just found these a few days ago.

Thanks Ckret. This is new source data you haven't provided before (I think you posted numbers but didn't give the source of them). Doesn't matter how faded. I know you fade them first with Photoshop just so it takes us a couple of weeks and 100 posts to agree on what they say. :)

Soon you'll be posting some faded toast pictures for us. (hey! maybe that will be the new evidence)

[snowmman 3]

The 1000 ft/min descent rate may be "light".
Don't have info on 1971 era 28' round. but here's a whuffo guess: (edit) fixed oops on min vs sec.

Using some data from Butler's site
http://www.butlerparachutes.com/howto2.htm

USAF/USN 28' C-9
(interestingly, at least modern day version, says 300 lb max weight with 225 KIAS max speed..impressive...chart says drop tested at >300 lb and >250 KIAS ..strong I guess...)

drag area is 446 sq ft. (but what about back in 1971?)

Using Butlers chart of drag area/descent rate/weight
(attached)
http://www.butlerparachutes.com/howto1.htm

200 lb load with 446 sq ft drag gives about a 19 ft/sec descent rate.
that's about 1140 ft/min

that's at sea level though.

butler has a chart for adjusting for altitude. (thinner air/faster ...hmm does humidity affect this? is air thicker with humidity???)
http://www.butlerparachutes.com/howto.htm

averaging from 9000 to 0, looks to be 1.075 i.e. 7.5% faster descent rate on avg, compared to the sea level graph?
so 1.07*1140 = 1219 ft/min? (edit) fixed min.

(we don't know Cooper's weight. Also not sure what butler's load includes...parachute + rig might be
added weight too)

(edit) I love the opportunity to dig at Ckret. Remember when we were talking about the fuzziness about whether it was a 26' round or a 28' round. It's totally unclear what canopy data was used in the '72 calcs.

(edit) and fuck your old calcs! I just noticed the page 273 Ckret provides is about landing at ???' MSL???. (edit) 2500 was my error that was low opening) So the canopy drift is wrong when used further south...i.e. the plane altitude is wrong, plus the landing altitude is wrong?

I'm a whuffo and I can see that. And the page 272 and 273 make no mention of what canopy was used for descent rate calcs.

[snowmman 3]

Todays' winds at 10,000 ft, across the entire USA
(attached map)
60-70 knot winds at 10k are not uncommon?
from
http://www.weather.com/maps/activity/aviation/us10000footwindsaloft_large.html

even at 5000 ft strong winds today in places: 2nd attach
http://www.weather.com/maps/activity/aviation/us5000footwindsaloft_large.html

[Ckret 0]

Snowmman wrote "(I think you posted numbers but didn't give the source of them)."

You don't trust me? I am from the government and here to help. How could you not trust an FBI agent; after all, I am the one that protects your rights as provided by the constitution of the United States.

By the way, that book you checked out is two days late and at the moment your cell phone is off; just here to help. Oh, and that web site you have minimized right now, I didn't know people could do that, very strange.

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman wrote "(I think you posted numbers but didn't give the source of them)."

You don't trust me? I am from the government and here to help. How could you not trust an FBI agent; after all, I am the one that protects your rights as provided by the constitution of the United States.

By the way, that book you checked out is two days late and at the moment your cell phone is off; just here to help. Oh, and that web site you have minimized right now, I didn't know people could do that, very strange.

hey, don't joke.
Last night I was reading the English/French translations of this prose poem below, and today for the first time you post poetry. Yeah, I wondered WTF for a second.

Oh yeah, all those jpgs you posted are unreadable. I tried adjusting them, but maybe you need to try scanning them at higher resolution or something. Can't make out anything.



Arthur Rimbaud
A Season in Hell.

Once, if I remember it well, my life was a feast where all hearts opened and all wines flowed.
One evening I seated Beauty on my knees. And I found her bitter. And I cursed her.
I armed myself against justice.
I fled. O Witches, O Misery, O Hate, to you has my treasure been entrusted!
I contrived to purge my mind of all human hope. On all joy, to strangle it, I pounced with the stealth of a wild beast.
I called to the executioners that I might gnaw their rifle-butts while dying. I called to the plagues to smother me in blood, in sand. Misfortune was my God. I laid myself down in the mud. I dried myself in the air of crime. I played sly tricks on madness.
And spring brought me the idiot's frightful laughter.
Now, only recently, being on the point of giving my last squawk, I thought of looking for the key to the ancient feast where I might find my appetite again.
Charity is that Key.--This inspiration proves that I have dreamed!
"You will always be a hyena. . ." etc., protest the devil who crowned me with such pleasant poppies. "Attain death with all your appetites, your selfishness and all the capital sins!"
Ah! I'm fed up:--But, dear Satan, a less fiery eye I beg you! And while awaiting a few small infamies in arrears, you who love the absence of the instructive or descriptive faculty in a writer, for you let me tear out these few, hideous pages from my notebook of one of the damned.

[Ckret 0]

Who's joking?.... and take that out of your hand, your palm will get hairy.

Cold medicine, I blame it on cold medicine

[snowmman 3]

Is that the FBI is incompetent, mostly, and relies on bullshit in the press.

The article below at Wired mistakenly chopped the last line: "When contacted, Snowmman commented "Don't worry about them. It's the guy next door that's more competent".

Hey Jo provides the existence proof why phishing scams are so easy. People want to believe things, and it's easy to manipulate using text and images. The worst is when the guvt does the same thing.

from: http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2007/07/fbi_spyware?currentPage=all

"Larry Carr, a spokesman with the FBI's Seattle field office, couldn't confirm that the CIPAV is the same software previously known as Magic Lantern, but emphasized that the bureau's technological capabilities have grown since the 2001 report. The case shows that FBI scientists are equipped to handle internet threats, says Carr.

"It sends a message that, if you're going to try and do stuff like this online, that we have the ability to track individuals' movements online and bring the case to resolution."

.....uh yeah. right.

[Ckret 0]

Say what you want carrot nose, but bottom line is the kid went to jail.

What else you got?

[snowmman 3]

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Say what you want carrot nose, but bottom line is the kid went to jail.

What else you got?

If I had a telephoto lens, would I have photos of you banging Ivana Nizich in Iraq? Or was that Duane Weber?

[Ckret 0]

Snowmman,

Hit a few shots and come back with something better, let the hops and barley do their magic.

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman,

Hit a few shots and come back with something better, let the hops and barley do their magic.

We all have our problems Larry. You should think about yours.

[Ckret 0]

Ok............

(long pause while Larry thinks about them)

There, I fell much better!!!!!!!!

[skyjack71 0]

For SOMEONE who claims not to be a JUMPER - or a Pilot. HOW do you know any of this - how can you possibly put yourself out there as an Expert?

I think you need to EXPLAIN yourself and your expertise before you go about making a jump analysis.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

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For SOMEONE who claims not to be a JUMPER - or a Pilot. HOW do you know any of this - how can you possibly put yourself out there as an Expert?

I think you need to EXPLAIN yourself and your expertise before you go about making a jump analysis.

weird. Tina said the same thing to Cooper. (of course, Cooper might have just been bullshitting me about that).

[377 21]

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Say what you want carrot nose, but bottom line is the kid went to jail.

What else you got?

If I had a telephoto lens, would I have photos of you banging Ivana Nizich in Iraq? Or was that Duane Weber?

Didn't you see the movie Snow? Johnny Utah (who is really Ckret) was doing TYLER! The FBI code of conduct and state marriage licenses have no force OUS. Just ask any SAs who have done work abroad.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

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For SOMEONE who claims not to be a JUMPER - or a Pilot. HOW do you know any of this - how can you possibly put yourself out there as an Expert?

I think you need to EXPLAIN yourself and your expertise before you go about making a jump analysis.

weird. Tina said the same thing to Cooper. (of course, Cooper might have just been bullshitting me about that).

Jo,

I agree, Snow knows more about jumping than he is letting on. Confirming clues abound. His Whuffo act is a little too slick. Only a jumper could be that perfect a Whuffo if you catch my drift. And speaking of drift, that is no Whuffo analysis that came up with 8 miles. No way Jose'.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

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For SOMEONE who claims not to be a JUMPER - or a Pilot. HOW do you know any of this - how can you possibly put yourself out there as an Expert?

I think you need to EXPLAIN yourself and your expertise before you go about making a jump analysis.

Jo, I think you need to EXPLAIN yourself and your expertise when arguing that it makes perfect sense for Cooper to go back and retrieve a car, but to leave all that money behind. (And remember one of your original arguments why he left the money there was that he did not have a car... )

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 21]

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For SOMEONE who claims not to be a JUMPER - or a Pilot. HOW do you know any of this - how can you possibly put yourself out there as an Expert?

I think you need to EXPLAIN yourself and your expertise before you go about making a jump analysis.

Jo, I think you need to EXPLAIN yourself and your expertise when arguing that it makes perfect sense for Cooper to go back and retrieve a car, but to leave all that money behind. (And remember one of your original arguments why he left the money there was that he did not have a car... )

and she's yet to SPLAIN why the FBI would want to do anything other than solve this old case and why she thinks an ongoing FBI cover up conspiracy is credible, especially in 2008.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.