D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

I like the way you think!

You have the type of thinking that will help solve this case.

I can answer *some* of your questions, the others we can't determine without Ckret's help.

Could they be three miles off? I can't answer this. I would venture to guess, if we're talking about radar information the answer would be NO, but if we're talking about the flight crew recording the pressure bump errantly, then maybe.

I like your theory. There's one quick problem it would have to overcome...
There's a waterway between where the money was found and any hills. This waterway flows parallel to the Columbia river. Therefore, if your theory were to be correct, the money would have had to been buried between these two points.

The area above where the money was found is relatively flat... it would be a few miles before there's any type of hill.

Where your theory could hold out would be if he did this further East... in that tributary zone. If you go into the areas that feed the Washougal river, it's very mountainous. I also think *if* the money washed down through a tributary, the Washougal tributaries are the better bet. I can't speak to a cave or not, but good thinking.
The downside to thinking the money was buried in the SE mountains of Clark is simply because it's very slopey and extremely wooded... it's not the most ideal place to bury money if you ever intended to retrieve it someday. But, we can't discount the idea because of this.

See the attached map 46. The little streams next to the money area lie in a very flat, marsh-like area. The waterway I spoke of is in the upper right quandrant of this map... that is lake river and it flows north. The obvious waterway to feed this location is the Columbia River. Tributaries that can feed the Columbia all reside in the tributary zone... OR at any point directly on the Columbia river and to the west. In other words, the likely place the money came from IS the Columbia... the proper question would be, did it travel through a tributary first, or did it have a more direct shot?

You asked about a possible old hunter's shack. Well, I don't know about this, BUT on that beach where the money was found, there are a few buildings that might be described as a shack. I don't know if they were there in 71 though. If there were, my guess is these were all searched in 1980 as was that whole beach.

[SKYWHUFFO 0]

Safe cracking said:

"You asked about a possible old hunter's shack. Well, I don't know about this, BUT on that beach where the money was found, there are a few buildings that might be described as a shack. I don't know if they were there in 71 though. If there were, my guess is these were all searched in 1980 as was that whole beach. "


Wasn't Weber referencing a couple of shacks where he buried somthing according to Jo???? He later tried to return to this area on a "sentimental Journey" Could one of these been built on stilts to keep dry fromm flooding thus have " a lookout tower" look to it, as also Jo referenced? If this is the case Cooper buries the money behind these buildings located right where the first money was recovered and washes down to the river and goes bye bye.

Safecracking and Ckret,

I have not studied the maps, is it feasable to land in that area knowing what we know about the flight, winds, etc? If so isn't it close enough to the road to find a phone and make a call rather quickly back then? sound framiliar?
I just think if it is going to wash as far as you say there is very little chance of the rubberbands stayin on, the money not decenegration etc. But if it washed down a hill several hundred feet after being buried under a building and unearthed when torn down, the bundles would be protected from the elements and intact.

This could support Weber or Mccoy or both. I am not as versed as you two, but I think this would bring alot of things together with everything jo has said, but also it supports Mcoy's phone call too. help me out is that plausable?

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Ckret,

Thanks for the post. I don't know about kool-aid, and I don't know if it's possible to "solve" the case. What I can tell you is that if you take the information we have to go from (radar, captain scott logging the bump, type of canopy used, known winds, known location where the money was found) then you can eliminate a lot of theories.

What you're suggesting, that Cooper landed somewhere else, is precisely what people have done since 1980... "oh, you mean the money was found there? That means we were way off in our calculations of where he landed!"
I think that's a valid thought, but it assumes everyone who helped calculate the landing area in 71/72 were using faulty information. It's also a convenient way to support a paradigm.

Ckret, I can easily outline an area that would feed the washougal river. I can have this done by tommorow.

What I'd like if possible is more details regarding the flight path. We have the details of where it was when it crossed the Lewis River... I'd like to know where it was later on.

You've already posted the known winds. If you can, can you please double check the known winds, including their direction.

I can tell now from what I've done so far that it appears possible for Cooper to land in the tributary zone if he jumped later than he did, but my instinct would tell me that he'd land in the area that feeds LaCamas, and this area has become extremely developed... with houses upon houses, but I can't say for sure without more information.

I had estimated the flight path based on a published photo showing the route... but if you can provide us with more detailed scans, that would be extremely helpful.

Can you please post the flight path information? Where it was, when it was where, and how we know they're reliable, if possible.

One last thing, and I only say this because of the Kool-Aid comment... I find it somewhat amusing that you stated in a news paper article that people will try and twist the facts to fit their theory of who they think did it. Now, who's the one playing with the known facts to fit a theory?

Without the proper flight path information, we're assuming the following exchange may have taken place:

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Cpt Scott: "hey guys... do you remember when we felt that weird sudden change in cabin pressure a while ago"

Mucklow: "yeah"

Rataczak: "Yes. What about it?"

Scott: "Well I was thinking, perhaps we should document it"

Rataczak: "Great idea!"

Scott: "Do you think it was 15 minutes ago, or was it only 10 minutes ago?"

Mucklow: "It was probably 15 minutes ago"

Rataczak: "I concur. It seems like we've been on this flight forever, it had to of been 15 minutes ago"

Scott: "Okay then, 15 minutes ago... let's see, it's 2026 now, that would mean it occured at 2011. Rataczak, please make a notation in the log"

Rataczak: "yes sir"

Can we keep the jokes to a minimum? I suppose I asked for it with the comments about money swimming upstream, but still... kool-aid suggests I'm some crazy cult follower and I would hope what I've attempted to do here does not fit that description.

Ok... I will outline the Washougal tribuataries for you and post them by the end of the day tomorrow.

If you can, please post some more flight information... along with the Hancock (?) interview you mentioned a few days ago.

[Orange1 0]

safecracker, wasn't the kool-aid just a reference to the low budgets they have?

seriously, sounds like you're doing some good work there, keep it up.

something is bugging me about the ticket story. i can remember those old tickets (clearly, cos i once had a travel agent write the incorrect time for a flight in). I can certainly remembering handling the tickets, if only just to check flight times etc. I suppose it's possible Cooper's prints weren't on it, especially if he knew it could be used for evidence - Ckret, you said you checked the ticket for prints - were you able to match all the prints found on there against check-in clerks, flight attendants etc or were there any prints that were "left over" and could be Cooper's? did any match the partial found on the tie pin?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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Wasn't Weber referencing a couple of shacks where he buried somthing according to Jo???? He later tried to return to this area on a "sentimental Journey"

I need to be careful here not to speak for someone else, but from my understanding... we're talking about a different area. How skyjack came to that opinion was that Duane went to an area along the Columbia, he went down towards the river and instructed her to stay in the car. He took something out the trunk and went down. She fell asleep. Later in 2000 or 2001, skyjack returned to the vicinity and attempted to find as many places she could find that Duane took her to. One of those places was this spot on the river... a person with her told her that there used to small cabins or "shacks" as you say. Now there are homes. My understanding of this particular location is that it's somewhere between the I-5 and I-205 freeways.

Skyjack71, if I'm incorrect on any of the above, please correct it.

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I have not studied the maps, is it feasable to land in that area knowing what we know about the flight, winds, etc? If so isn't it close enough to the road to find a phone and make a call rather quickly back then? sound framiliar?

First, it DOES sound familiar. One of the things I wanted to look at was whether this was feasible (ie, get to a phone in under 2 hours)... but now I'm being told by the FBI agent on the case that the flight information, timeline of the bump, etc are all unreliable, and therefore any conclusion based on that information would also be unreliable.

It would appear possible that Cooper could have landed on land in an area between I-5 & I-205 if my estimated flight path was correct. I need more information... the assumption that will need to be broken would be the time of the pressure bump.

It seems to me these new theories that are arising are very contigent upon the flight path and the time of the pressure bump. Quite simply, we need reliable information to obtain a reliable answer. Thus, my post above.

Wuffo... you are thinking exactly like I was thinking when I woke up this morning... can Cooper get to a phone?? Can he do it quickly?

Now we may never know simply because we've been told the facts of the case aren't reliable.

[Ckret 0]

The internet is a strange thing, it is a statement how without context communication is difficult. scPLF, I was joking with you on an inside FBI joke (guess thats the problem) in order to become an agent you have to drink the kool-aid to become a mindless robot. It had nothing to do with you being mindless, its a joke about agents. Sorry you took it the wrong way. I appreciate the work your doing and was commiserating with you.

In regards to the facts and twisting them, I don't think so, where and how the money was found makes a statement, it's talking to us telling a story. there are few probable ways the money got there and i believe I explored what may be the most probable.

no more jokes, "just the facts ma'am" wait is that a joke? Damn, already broke a promise.

[airtwardo 6]

where and how the money was found makes a statement, it's talking to us telling a story. there are few probable ways the money got there and i believe I explored what may be the most probable.

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I still keep as a possibility that the bag tore away on exit or opening...

Cooper never found 'cause he made it out, money never spent 'cause it didn't.

Find an old guy with the skills and no money...ya GOT him!

(haven't retired & still working aren't ya Guru?)

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

No problem Ckret, I'm not mad.

But it would be helpful to know how reliable the flight information is.

Because I sincerely believe the next question "how does the money get there" is much more challenging to answer simply because there could be a lot of ways!

If we're back to him dying upon impact, then we have to essentially start all over. If we think he hiked into the mountains and then placed money or died, that's a viable theory.

I ask you this, because I can't really answer this... what do we know and how do we know it?
Thanks for all of your help.

There's simply no way to begin to answer questions without the help you've given on this forum.
I mean that, 100%. Thank you again.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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I still keep as a possibility that the bag tore away on exit or opening...

We can no longer rule this out as long as the facts of the case are in question. I can say that given the information provided to us earlier, Cooper losing the money in air would be impossible.... but I guess we're back at square one.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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talking to us telling a story.

Many of you can tell where my opinion lies. I do believe the money is telling us a story, and that's precisely why I've spent so much time on it from the very first post I made on DZ.

My opinion just so happens to fit what's known. But now that the agent on the case has expressed doubt regarding the timeline and the flight path, everything is up in the air. We cannot make progress until we're dealing with what's known. Working with assumptions can lead us to the truth, but that truth would always be called into question simply because we never ruled out and eliminated the fiction.

[Ckret 0]

The flight path depicted on the map I posted has an error of +-.5 miles, which is accounted for on the map. I'll try to post it with higher resolution but i am limited because of this site.

When you look at the money and how it was found I don't take a bleak look, the answer is there and finding the money is the key to unlock the door to the answer. As I posted, there are very few probable ways the money got there in it's condition.

It got there after 74 and was protected to some extent until discovery in 80. There is nothing that would point to it being placed there by someone (although it can be considered as an alternative once the most probable has been explored). Armed with new facts we can adjust, correct or pull into sharper focus what was once thought to be fact.

the money is the area of the case that has been least investigated and should be the focus because it may lead to bones, which lead to DNA, which lead to race and ethnic profile, which leads to familial confirmation and resolution (wouldn't that be something).

[Ckret 0]

What did I post that leads you to believe the reported data is unreliable, there may be some small adjustments the totality of the investigation but the flight data and radar are correct. I will publish the logs that were kept real time on the 24th so you can see what was said and when it was said.

[awsee1 0]

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the money is the area of the case that has been least investigated and should be the focus because it may lead to bones, which lead to DNA, which lead to race and ethnic profile, which leads to familial confirmation and resolution (wouldn't that be something).

Yes possibly, IF he's dead. But it also leads to more questions like "where is the rest of the money?".

Bren

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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the money is the area of the case that has been least investigated and should be the focus because it may lead to bones, which lead to DNA, which lead to race and ethnic profile, which leads to familial confirmation and resolution (wouldn't that be something).

Now I know you and I are on the same page!

What made me think there was an error in what was known was simply that you were asking about how Cooper could have landed near a Washougal tributary. Based on what's been provided, this cannot happen. If the pressure bump timeline was inaccurate, then this enters into the equation.

Please check your PM. I'm going to send you a link where you can upload big files and send them to people via email. Please post here what you can, but if the site limits you, then perhaps offer that such file can be sent via link.

Ckret, you and I are in total agreement as to that money. I personally think it was a gift from God... I'm not even religious.

Bren,
I want to caution everyone on here, myself included, not to let a resulting new question confound the answer to a prior question.

If we can answer one question with a high degree of certainty (meaning 99.99%) then we cannot allow the next question it might raise to cause doubt of the answer.

[Ckret 0]

bren,

here's what the money tells; If Cooper lived he lived without his money. The money (from it's condition when found) had to have been sheltered from the elements. Because the money could not have been there before 1974 it rules out that Cooper landed near by, buried some cash and never came back. Because of its condition when found we know the earliest it could have been there in an unprotected state is late 78. There would be no logical reason for someone to come back and plant the money there 8 years after. It would not have cooled the investigation or thrown it off of a subject. No matter where the money is found the subject list would have stayed the same. Plus, at this point who ever Cooper is, he got away with it. The investigation was dying, why would someone fan the flames and $5,800 was a large sum in the late 70's and 80's, if you got away with it, you wouldn't give it up for no apparent reason.

If the above is true then the money was blown off of Cooper when he jumped (which an accurate recreation may prove useful) or he died and the money detached from his decaying corps. The money then takes a big portion of the mystery out of the mystery, no beaches, no margaritas, no high living. It's either death or "damn, I'll never do that again!!!"

Safe, glad your back, thought I lost you for a moment.

[skydogs 0]

Then there's that third option of he jumped and stashed the money only to loose track of where he stashed it. Then later, the whole bag is washed away and a bundle or two gets stuck in the sand downstream. I've known of base jumpers to stash their rigs after a jump so that they can casually walk out, only to be unable to re-find them later. That's gotta suck.

[Ckret 0]

if cooper buried the money on the beach upon landing that is where it would have stayed undisturbed. In 1974 almost two feet of sand and clay were buried there. I am sure, if Cooper buried the money he would have put the bag at least a foot down most likely more. The geologist that worked the site stated that it would be of a certain impossibility that on its own the money could have broke through the clay deposites from the dredging and the dig showed no signs of disturbance in the clay layer.

[skydogs 0]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I wasn't suggesting that he burried it in the sand at Tenas bar. Perhaps he burried it in the hills (or behind/under some object) and later rains washed it out. Then, after the bag broke during the travels, one or two bundles got washed up in the sand and re-burried (post 1974).

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

My personal opinion is that something similar to this may have very well happened. It seems plausible.... hopefully we can get to the point where we start weighing different scenarios and testing them out against logic.

[skydogs 0]

Or perhaps even split up the loot into several hiding places just incase one gets discovered.

[NickDG 23]

>>I've known of BASE jumpers to stash their rigs only to be unable to re-find them later.
Camo stash bags - the best/worst idea in BASE!

NickD

[winsor 187]

I just cannot talk about it right now - until ALL of the information is in. If we can back up the information - believe me it will go public. I am not playing a game

[skyjack71 0]

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it could not have been put there just after 74 because the rubber bands would have not been in place. because of the condition of the rubber bands, the bundles could have only been in the elements for a year give or take.

So we should find the most northwest point where something could get washed into the Washougal water shed (keeping in mind the 77 flood)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
???????????????????????????????????????????????
How many times do I need to state that the money was put there in 1979...after Duane dug it up earlier - either in the Dallas area or at the Columbia location where the cabin used to be. He also left one day when we were in Seattle - he almost didn't make it for Dinner - I had to go on down to the Dining Room by myself. The afternoon was a free one and he needed to do something alone.

As I have said repeatedly - he never put all his eggs in one basket. For GOD's sake someone listen to me - Please listen - Please.[

I know Duane hit the ground North and West of the area he took me because he took me North and slightly West - the area that I couldn't find...I did not have a car when I was out there and at the mercy of others. Maybe if I had just have gone out on my own - feeling my way from memory points - maybe I could have found it.

When you get to an intersection around and before you get to 500 -as it was in 1979. You go directly north and then West ...that is where the towers used to be - and West of those towers would be some tracks. These tracks to north and I think back eastward. They go a long ways - almost to Merwin. Just were he got on those track I don't know - but it was a pump car and it would be above Battle Ground not the town as I understood it but something a few miles from that or beyond that point.

I don't know where he found the pump car or how far he rode it...but he jumped it at the pipeline and powerlines - then he was back on foot - he had to get to a certain area. How long it took him I don't know. I do know two locations that he probably held up - for how long I don't know. Then he had to get to the cabin on the Columbia and then get out of the area.

Please listen to me - Please! The route, the money, the ticket, the stub, the bag, the confession, the tie, the reason for the jump, he looked like Cooper, he was a 6 time felon, he knew the area, he knew about the Boeing (in detail). the knew about diving (I can't put him in a chute) but if the FBI searched his background enough - they might find it. The fact that he disappeared for a couple of months, the fact that he bought 2 new cars in late 71 or early 72 without viable income, that he had injuries he said he got trimming a tree.

Please, do what I asked you to do on that tie...that is your answer and my salvation.
Stop wasting time and take time to look at the facts....it is simple, but everyone is making it complicated.

[skyjack71 0]

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"You asked about a possible old hunter's shack. Well, I don't know about this, BUT on that beach where the money was found, there are a few buildings that might be described as a shack. I don't know if they were there in 71 though. If there were, my guess is these were all searched in 1980 as was that whole beach. "

Wasn't Weber referencing a couple of shacks where he buried somthing according to Jo???? He later tried to return to this area on a "sentimental Journey" Could one of these been built on stilts to keep dry fromm flooding thus have " a lookout tower" look to it, as also Jo referenced? If this is the case Cooper buries the money behind these buildings located right where the first money was recovered and washes down to the river and goes bye bye.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I never said anything like that!
This is the way it was:

I was at Tena' Bar in 2000 - there were no shacks there - it used to be a farm. I referrence cabins and not shack and the area of concern is much further EAST. NOT as Tena's Bar.

On the Sentimental Journey - he took me to what I think was his safe place and that was a long way from his drop. He did take me to the Columbia after we left Seattle on the way to Tahoe To where there used to be an old Cabin - which is not there anymore...this is when he went down the hill and told me to stay in the car.

Then after that we went to a Motel just below the Vancouver Bridge where he tossed something in the river - but this package was already in the car - I thought it was trash - I went to the restroom and when I returned he had already discarded this bag.
Note, the trash can was empty at the site.

The ONLY time I have been to Tena's bar was when the TV crew took me there in 2000 ---I refused to get on the beach and act like I was looking for money - because when we got there I was ADAMANT that this WAS not the PLACE he took me to IN 1979.

I walked away from the Crew and Himmelsbach back to the cars...I was crying and wanted to be alone.
I was not going to pretend this was the area Duane took me to in 1979.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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I walked away from the Crew and Himmelsbach back to the cars...I was crying and wanted to be alone.
I was not going to pretend this was the area Duane took me to in 1979.

We're getting ahead of ourselves. Before we discuss how money got to where it was found, can we first go back and really make sure we hammered out the details of the landing zone?

If we can confirm some of the things we know, such as flight recorder info, altitude, time of the pressure bump, speed and direction of the winds, and the flight path... then we might be able to conclusively end a lot of speculative theories. I think this has been shown already, but let's verify the facts before we jump to the next topic.

But, at a glance, I'd certainly say your story would seem to fit the facts. I'd also add that when you became adamant about the area in front of Himmelsbach and the crew, it strengthened your credibility. If you were just looking to concoct a story, it would make it fit really nice if you had said "yep, this is the place!"

Further, as of right now, my instinct tells me the money was not buried where Ingram found it, but we have yet to really get to this point and discuss possible burial (other than it obviously got there after 1974).

But those are just my opinions. I'd like to make sure we have some of that other stuff locked down before jumping to a different topic. You have to establish FACT before you can begin weighing theories against it.

Now that I said that, thank you for clarifying. I can tell you with absolute certainty that there's a railroad line running north and south that runs through battleground. Your post mentioned it going east as it goes north... this same rail does head east, it follows lucia falls rd. It heads all the way down into Vancouver as it travels south.