pchapman 261 #1 May 10, 2006 Just curious whether anyone had found the book of use, or whether it was once popular, way back when. The book was published in '81 as a guide to RW, and I bought the 2nd edition in about '90 when I got my licence. I was trying to find some source of information on RW and that's what was available to buy. I found the book quite confusing, partially because I had so little RW experience that I couldn't truly understand its lessons in terms of real experience. A lot of the book dealt with the dive down to a formation and how to approach a formation. The other problem for me was that I was trained in aerodynamics, while the book had many incorrect statements about physics & aerodynamics. While it doesn't take an aerodynamicist to do good RW, it did take away from the perceived authority of the book. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #2 May 11, 2006 while the book had many incorrect statements about physics & aerodynamics. *** Carl wasn't 'trained' in those areas, but was one of the better RW fliers of his time. He was no doubt trying to relate the pertinent info in a way he understood it, and he felt the reader might understand as well. It wasn't meant as reference material for an aerodynamics thesis... Just a helpful guide... RW isn't rocket surgery... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #3 May 11, 2006 QuoteI couldn't truly understand its lessons in terms of real experience. You have to take into account the time when the book was written. During that time a lot of what was said by some skydivers could not be understood, even by the one that said it. QuoteA lot of the book dealt with the dive down to a formation and how to approach a formation. Roger was one of the best at leaving late in a DC-3 type exit and swooping his slot. Fast, smooth and aware. Have you read Pat Work's "The Art of Freefall Relitivework"? Pat Works My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #4 May 11, 2006 Roger was one of the best at leaving late in a DC-3 type exit and swooping his slot. Fast, smooth and aware. *** That is true. And having jumped with both brothers 'back in the day...' Carl made Roger look like a F J S ! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #5 May 11, 2006 Quote Have you read Pat Work's "The Art of Freefall Relitivework"? Haven't seen it. I think that was the other RW book available at the time. I picked one of the two available books off the mail order lists... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #6 May 11, 2006 in reply to "Just curious whether anyone had found the book of use, or whether it was once popular, way back when. .......A lot of the book dealt with the dive down to a formation and how to approach a formation. " ............................... People use to get almost reverent about that 'dive down to a formation'. To many beginners at the time being able to dive down to a big formation was a major goal in the sport. Information would be sourced from where ever you could . Without AFF being around the sharing of freefall skills happened a bit differently. Freefall techniques were less well defined and categorised. Historical books like this although perhaps flawed in some ways demonstrate pioneering feeling that existed . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,625 #7 May 12, 2006 Quotein reply to "Just curious whether anyone had found the book of use, or whether it was once popular, way back when. .......A lot of the book dealt with the dive down to a formation and how to approach a formation. " ............................... People use to get almost reverent about that 'dive down to a formation'. To many beginners at the time being able to dive down to a big formation was a major goal in the sport. With the overwhelming popularity of 4-way among RW enthusiasts, it seems that diving to a formation is still a big mystery. And you can't practice it in a tunnel.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #8 May 12, 2006 Quoteit seems that diving to a formation is still a big mystery. And you can't practice it in a tunnel. Ain't that the truth.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,123 #9 May 12, 2006 Quoteseems that diving to a formation is still a big mystery.There's nothing quite like that balls-to-the-wall dive down from the back end of some long line, back in the days when it was cool to beat the guys in front of you to the formation . It's all poor form now, for a whole lot of very good reasons. But it sure was fun. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #10 May 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteseems that diving to a formation is still a big mystery.There's nothing quite like that balls-to-the-wall dive down from the back end of some long line, back in the days when it was cool to beat the guys in front of you to the formation . It's all poor form now, for a whole lot of very good reasons. But it sure was fun. Wendy W. *** YUP! Now THERE is a "giggle" memory moment! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites itllclear 1 #11 May 12, 2006 Quotethat diving to a formation is still a big mystery. It's more like a "lost art." There are still some around who know it. I do a fair bit of 4-way and 8-way, and even launching the base "chunk" for some big-ways, but I still really enjoy going out late and diving. Blue Skies! Harry"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #12 May 14, 2006 in reply to "It's more like a "lost art." ..................... I like how one technique to get down quick had you basically adopting the same possy an unconscious body does . Chin tucked in ,shoulders rolled with your limbs and torso trailing loosely inside the burble . No-lift dives ...ya gotta love 'em. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites zoobrothertom 5 #13 May 14, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteseems that diving to a formation is still a big mystery.There's nothing quite like that balls-to-the-wall dive down from the back end of some long line, back in the days when it was cool to beat the guys in front of you to the formation . It's all poor form now, for a whole lot of very good reasons. But it sure was fun. Wendy W. *** YUP! Now THERE is a "giggle" memory moment! Darn right it's fun! You guys & gal are right, we don't get a chance to dive much anymore. One thing I like to do when I go on SCR loads is wait in the door of the Otter after everyone else has exited, ccount to 10 on thousand and exit!! At 13 grand I'm usually in between 7 and 8 grand. It's a fun way (and safer way) to swoop nowadays without pissing anyone off! Try it next time you'll have a blast of old memories.____________________________________ I'm back in the USA!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #14 May 14, 2006 QuoteIt's all poor form now, It's only poor form if they see ya do it, most of the new kids never see ya pass them and wonder how you got to your slot so fast when leaving last. I agree waiting in the door a few extra seconds is a hoot. ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,048 #15 May 14, 2006 Hi Zoo, Yup, lot's of fun hesitating in the door to get a dive in. Kinda would make the guys behind you real nervous and lots of profanity being said. But once they got out and could see what you had done they would ease up. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites zoobrothertom 5 #16 May 15, 2006 Your right about the griping if you hesitate too long. I always tried to do it when we had kinda of a mass scr/zoo load at the end of the day. I think stratostar said it best about how the new guys usually don't see you. When they do, it's funny to see their reactions afterwards. Remember in Pat Works' book about the different ways to dive on a star. Ya know over & down, straight in, or head down short into a fast flat approach. He really did help me once I was able to understand the swoop and realize what I was seeing the senior guys/gals do. Later Daze____________________________________ I'm back in the USA!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #17 May 15, 2006 QuoteRemember in Pat Works' book about the different ways to dive on a star. Whats kind of neat is Pat is teaching a whole new generation of jumpers how to free fly and with the same success. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #18 May 16, 2006 Quote[There's nothing quite like that balls-to-the-wall dive down from the back end of some long line, back in the days . ..................................................... I don't know why we didn't try launching a chunk back in the early 70's. Even out of a Cessna, one guy fell base and the others tried to catch him. I recall many loads when I was close to last out of a DC-3 or twin beech. The plan was that all the really skinny bastards would leave late. This often didn't have much to do with skill level. You'd never know that I was once a skinny bastard, but yes I was. Some times you would really have to squint to figure out where the star was at, and then spend a whole lot of time trying to get down there. A lot of the twin beeches we jumped had this little tiny door, and it was hard to get everyone out fast. Things were simple then, all you had to remember was to find the star and try to get in before time ran out.....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bob.dino 0 #19 May 16, 2006 QuoteQuotethat diving to a formation is still a big mystery. It's more like a "lost art." There are still some around who know it. At Picton, Australia over Easter, Wendy Smith provided a masterclass in late diving. She was last out of the lead Otter, would delay a second or two in the door and still kick the arse of about four people ahead of her in the lineup, including me. Inspirational. And kind of humbling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #20 May 16, 2006 QuoteI don't know why we didn't try launching a chunk back in the early 70's Remember old time10 way speed star rules. No show, no grips, first 2 out were base & pin. And last but not least: If you ain"t cheati'n, you ain't try'n. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #21 May 16, 2006 And last but not least: If you ain"t cheati'n, you ain't try'n. *** My old roomie that was on the US Team 2X always said: If you ain't cheatin'...you ain't WINNING! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #22 May 16, 2006 QuoteAnd last but not least: If you ain"t cheati'n, you ain't try'n. *** My old roomie that was on the US Team 2X always said: If you ain't cheatin'...you ain't WINNING! Life was much simpler back then.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RogerRamjet 0 #23 May 17, 2006 QuoteRoger was one of the best at leaving late in a DC-3 type exit and swooping his slot. Fast, smooth and aware. *** That is true. And having jumped with both brothers 'back in the day...' Carl made Roger look like a F J S ! Hmmm, never raced Carl in a dive, but that adds weight to something he said at the '75 Z-Hills turkey meet. He was showing slides he had taken the day before and one had a look back up at the DC-3 and a whole line of diving jumpers (one of them me). He pointed to me with a pointer (a stick held in the slide projecter's beam as there were no laser pointers yet) and said "just look at Roger if you want to know how to dive." Roger and me were a tie swooping large formations, one of the reasons we bonded so fast I think I miss them both.... That type of thing came about sort of by accident if you ask me. In those days, not many had any real skills when it came to swooping from very far in the rear and learning was mostly by watching or following someone else as no one really tought in those day. I got my "training" by being placed 9th on Jim Hoopers 10 High Bunch speed team and having Steve Fugleburg (10th) burn me into the star every time for the next few months. I learned a lot following him until finally he couldn't beat me anymore. The three best swoopers of that era that I jumped with were Steve Fugleburg, Tony Patterson, and Roger Nelson in no particular order. There were other fast divers to be sure, but those three stand out in my memories. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
kallend 1,625 #7 May 12, 2006 Quotein reply to "Just curious whether anyone had found the book of use, or whether it was once popular, way back when. .......A lot of the book dealt with the dive down to a formation and how to approach a formation. " ............................... People use to get almost reverent about that 'dive down to a formation'. To many beginners at the time being able to dive down to a big formation was a major goal in the sport. With the overwhelming popularity of 4-way among RW enthusiasts, it seems that diving to a formation is still a big mystery. And you can't practice it in a tunnel.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #8 May 12, 2006 Quoteit seems that diving to a formation is still a big mystery. And you can't practice it in a tunnel. Ain't that the truth.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #9 May 12, 2006 Quoteseems that diving to a formation is still a big mystery.There's nothing quite like that balls-to-the-wall dive down from the back end of some long line, back in the days when it was cool to beat the guys in front of you to the formation . It's all poor form now, for a whole lot of very good reasons. But it sure was fun. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #10 May 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteseems that diving to a formation is still a big mystery.There's nothing quite like that balls-to-the-wall dive down from the back end of some long line, back in the days when it was cool to beat the guys in front of you to the formation . It's all poor form now, for a whole lot of very good reasons. But it sure was fun. Wendy W. *** YUP! Now THERE is a "giggle" memory moment! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
itllclear 1 #11 May 12, 2006 Quotethat diving to a formation is still a big mystery. It's more like a "lost art." There are still some around who know it. I do a fair bit of 4-way and 8-way, and even launching the base "chunk" for some big-ways, but I still really enjoy going out late and diving. Blue Skies! Harry"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #12 May 14, 2006 in reply to "It's more like a "lost art." ..................... I like how one technique to get down quick had you basically adopting the same possy an unconscious body does . Chin tucked in ,shoulders rolled with your limbs and torso trailing loosely inside the burble . No-lift dives ...ya gotta love 'em. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zoobrothertom 5 #13 May 14, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteseems that diving to a formation is still a big mystery.There's nothing quite like that balls-to-the-wall dive down from the back end of some long line, back in the days when it was cool to beat the guys in front of you to the formation . It's all poor form now, for a whole lot of very good reasons. But it sure was fun. Wendy W. *** YUP! Now THERE is a "giggle" memory moment! Darn right it's fun! You guys & gal are right, we don't get a chance to dive much anymore. One thing I like to do when I go on SCR loads is wait in the door of the Otter after everyone else has exited, ccount to 10 on thousand and exit!! At 13 grand I'm usually in between 7 and 8 grand. It's a fun way (and safer way) to swoop nowadays without pissing anyone off! Try it next time you'll have a blast of old memories.____________________________________ I'm back in the USA!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #14 May 14, 2006 QuoteIt's all poor form now, It's only poor form if they see ya do it, most of the new kids never see ya pass them and wonder how you got to your slot so fast when leaving last. I agree waiting in the door a few extra seconds is a hoot. ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #15 May 14, 2006 Hi Zoo, Yup, lot's of fun hesitating in the door to get a dive in. Kinda would make the guys behind you real nervous and lots of profanity being said. But once they got out and could see what you had done they would ease up. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zoobrothertom 5 #16 May 15, 2006 Your right about the griping if you hesitate too long. I always tried to do it when we had kinda of a mass scr/zoo load at the end of the day. I think stratostar said it best about how the new guys usually don't see you. When they do, it's funny to see their reactions afterwards. Remember in Pat Works' book about the different ways to dive on a star. Ya know over & down, straight in, or head down short into a fast flat approach. He really did help me once I was able to understand the swoop and realize what I was seeing the senior guys/gals do. Later Daze____________________________________ I'm back in the USA!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #17 May 15, 2006 QuoteRemember in Pat Works' book about the different ways to dive on a star. Whats kind of neat is Pat is teaching a whole new generation of jumpers how to free fly and with the same success. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #18 May 16, 2006 Quote[There's nothing quite like that balls-to-the-wall dive down from the back end of some long line, back in the days . ..................................................... I don't know why we didn't try launching a chunk back in the early 70's. Even out of a Cessna, one guy fell base and the others tried to catch him. I recall many loads when I was close to last out of a DC-3 or twin beech. The plan was that all the really skinny bastards would leave late. This often didn't have much to do with skill level. You'd never know that I was once a skinny bastard, but yes I was. Some times you would really have to squint to figure out where the star was at, and then spend a whole lot of time trying to get down there. A lot of the twin beeches we jumped had this little tiny door, and it was hard to get everyone out fast. Things were simple then, all you had to remember was to find the star and try to get in before time ran out.....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #19 May 16, 2006 QuoteQuotethat diving to a formation is still a big mystery. It's more like a "lost art." There are still some around who know it. At Picton, Australia over Easter, Wendy Smith provided a masterclass in late diving. She was last out of the lead Otter, would delay a second or two in the door and still kick the arse of about four people ahead of her in the lineup, including me. Inspirational. And kind of humbling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #20 May 16, 2006 QuoteI don't know why we didn't try launching a chunk back in the early 70's Remember old time10 way speed star rules. No show, no grips, first 2 out were base & pin. And last but not least: If you ain"t cheati'n, you ain't try'n. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #21 May 16, 2006 And last but not least: If you ain"t cheati'n, you ain't try'n. *** My old roomie that was on the US Team 2X always said: If you ain't cheatin'...you ain't WINNING! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #22 May 16, 2006 QuoteAnd last but not least: If you ain"t cheati'n, you ain't try'n. *** My old roomie that was on the US Team 2X always said: If you ain't cheatin'...you ain't WINNING! Life was much simpler back then.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #23 May 17, 2006 QuoteRoger was one of the best at leaving late in a DC-3 type exit and swooping his slot. Fast, smooth and aware. *** That is true. And having jumped with both brothers 'back in the day...' Carl made Roger look like a F J S ! Hmmm, never raced Carl in a dive, but that adds weight to something he said at the '75 Z-Hills turkey meet. He was showing slides he had taken the day before and one had a look back up at the DC-3 and a whole line of diving jumpers (one of them me). He pointed to me with a pointer (a stick held in the slide projecter's beam as there were no laser pointers yet) and said "just look at Roger if you want to know how to dive." Roger and me were a tie swooping large formations, one of the reasons we bonded so fast I think I miss them both.... That type of thing came about sort of by accident if you ask me. In those days, not many had any real skills when it came to swooping from very far in the rear and learning was mostly by watching or following someone else as no one really tought in those day. I got my "training" by being placed 9th on Jim Hoopers 10 High Bunch speed team and having Steve Fugleburg (10th) burn me into the star every time for the next few months. I learned a lot following him until finally he couldn't beat me anymore. The three best swoopers of that era that I jumped with were Steve Fugleburg, Tony Patterson, and Roger Nelson in no particular order. There were other fast divers to be sure, but those three stand out in my memories. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
