niu 0 #26 February 10, 2006 Quote My guess is most modern skydivers wouldn't even consider going skydiving if the old rigs were still the only option. After going through the incident reports on this very website,would that really be a bad thing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccurley 0 #27 February 10, 2006 Some of the little girls that are jumping very sucessfully today would have had a hard time picking up an old military surplus rig, never mind trying to adjest the harness to fitWatch my video Fat Women http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRWkEky8GoI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #28 February 10, 2006 Pull hard enough on the diagonals and you can make it fit just about anyone. I can remember putting at least one sub-100-lb'er under 5' tall out. But smaller and lighter is definitely better. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikePelkey 0 #29 February 11, 2006 Quoteis it true that the old belly mounted reserves didnt have a pilot chute and you actually had to grab the thing and throw it out? sounds like id take my chances with a linover... The old 24' belly mount reserve that we used from the early to mid 60's had neither a pilot chute nor a sleeve. It was not designed for comfort at all. Opening shock at terminal velocity was quite extreme and, due to its front harness mounting, tended to bend you backward quite sharply. It was deployed from a ripcord handle mounted on the front of the pack. The instant it caught air you were open with absolutely no hesitation.In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. - "RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB http://www.johnny Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #30 February 11, 2006 Hi Scratch, That is exactly what I did. I took a length of 550 cord (lots of bridles on 1.1's where made of 550 cord in those days), died it red, tied an overhand knot in the 'pull' end and had that sticking out of one flap of my chest/belly mount. People would always ask about the little red thing and I'd have to explain. I always wondered if I would be calm enough to do things right if a malfunction came along; never had to find out. Kind of how I feel about the idea of disconnecting the RSL shackle under extreme conditions because you want to take a delay. Anyone think they'll really be cool and collected to do it? Anyone done it to prove me wrong? I'm Ok with being wrong, been wrong lots in life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripcord4 0 #31 February 11, 2006 Jerry, I once had a mod on my chest reserve similar to that. I used the "green apple" knob from the 12 minute bailout O2 bottle with a "hair pin-type" cotter pin on a lanyard. The pin connected the pilot chute to the reserve bridle. If you had a total and needed a pilot chute, you just pulled the ripcord as usual. If you had a partial or didn't want to use the pilot chute, you would pull the knob, thereby disconnecting the pilot chute from the reserve and threw it out manually. Simple, efficient and no worry about knots in a line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #32 February 11, 2006 QuotePull hard enough on the diagonals and you can make it fit just about anyone. I can remember putting at least one sub-100-lb'er under 5' tall out. But smaller and lighter is definitely better. Wendy W. Our club had a lot of old B-12 rigs back in the early 70's, and that was all that was available for students to jump. If you cinched the diagonal backstraps down hard enough, then cinched the leg and chest straps down, even a tiny person would stay in. I'm not sure how comfortable they were though. I knew a guy in the army who was huge. The backstraps just wouldn't let out far enough for him. He really earned his jump pay, because it hurt like hell to be scrunched into his rig. The riggers finally came up with a special harness for him that they had customized....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #33 February 11, 2006 QuoteAnyone think they'll really be cool and collected to do it? Anyone done it to prove me wrong? I'm Ok with being wrong, been wrong lots in life. Jerry, I spent over 20 years involved in testing. I have done live jumps on some really strange shit. If it came right down to it, I doubt if I could release the shackle on an RSL. If the test plan called for it, I would modify it with something that could be located, grabbed and pull with some chance of success. Even then I would not try it under a high speed going through 2,000. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #34 February 11, 2006 in reply to "After going through the incident reports on this very website,would that really be a bad thing? " ...................... I sometimes think it could improve things safety related if newbies had to work their way up from the beginning rather than start at the top as most do these days.( they'd certainly have more respect for our pioneers.) That way at least they'd also have a chance to learn the basics at a measured pace rather than.......... just add money..phoof! .....instant skydiver. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #35 February 11, 2006 Quote just add money..phoof! .....instant skydiver. *** I'm stealing THAT line! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,048 #36 February 11, 2006 Hi Sparky, That is exactly what I am talking about. Now, do not misunderstand, I think the snap-shackle and its options are a great idea. However, the thought that you can do it easily in the air under a HP malfunction because you want to get away from the crowd is simply wrong. And people are only fooling themselves if they believe it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #37 February 11, 2006 QuoteHi Sparky, That is exactly what I am talking about. Now, do not misunderstand, I think the snap-shackle and its options are a great idea. However, the thought that you can do it easily in the air under a HP malfunction because you want to get away from the crowd is simply wrong. And people are only fooling themselves if they believe it. You don't think skydivers would overestimate their abilities do you? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #38 February 12, 2006 Given the wimpy springs in the original spider and umbrella type pilot chutes, I doubt if they would have made much difference. The other deteriorating factor was civilians keeping military surplus pilot chutes in service ten times the military service life. Weak pilot chute springs were the norm with belly-mounted reserves. The last time that I wore a belly wart with a spider type pilot chute was in 1986 - when the West German Army was desperately searching for a replacement for their (non-netted) T-10s. I burned dozens of holes in the main, but fortunately it was descending slowly enough that I did not have to pull my reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #39 February 12, 2006 Quotein reply to " it`s pretty strange that anyone lived through it. " ............................. Agreed. Those old rigs were amazing and the people who jumped them with smiles on their faces even more so. We're all so lucky to have such great gear today . My guess is most modern skydivers wouldn't even consider going skydiving if the old rigs were still the only option. But that's exactly what the kids are going to think in 20 years when they look at your Javelin/Micron/Infinity/whatever, with your 9 cell elliptical that might even be cross-braced, with its collapsible p/c, and your freebagged 7 cell reserve. And the Cypres/Vigil unit ? It will send shivers up their spine ! But this is the best gear we've ever known, and thirty years ago an early model Wonderhog or Racer, with a hand deployed 5 cell Strato Star and a 26 ft. low porosity conical round reserve was the cutting edge. And a decade before that, a Mini System with a 3 pin ripcord deployed Paracommander, and a CHEST MOUNTED round reserve was the cat's ass of a rig. Notice I don't even mention AAD's because we didn't have them, didn't trust them, and didn't want them. They were for students only. But we all jumped these rigs with confidence, because they worked. Even the cutaways worked and the reserves opened. Hell, my first rig was entirely military surplus and it opened every time (obviously). we still don't have perfect rigs. We still don't have a foolproof way of dealing with a pilot chute in tow, or preventing a ram air from collapsing in the wrong kind of turbulence. AAD's still won't re-arm themselves quickly enough from a cutaway below a grand. Our gear's better, but there's room for improvement. And I doubt the perfect rig will ever exist. As for the grins on all those faces, well that's a no brainer. They wuz skydivin' ! They wuz feelin' GOOD. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites niu 0 #40 February 12, 2006 tbrown,the "pretty strange" part was a comment to the fact that in the picture the jumper pulled his reserve belly down which is a good thing with a piggyback but far from ideal with a chestmounted reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #41 February 13, 2006 in reply to "My guess is most modern skydivers wouldn't even consider going skydiving if the old rigs were still the only option. ................................ -but that's exactly what the kids are going to think in 20 years ------------------------------------- Mmm..... nice perspective. In 20-30 years time the new kids may be wondering what all the fuss was about as skydiving gets more and more safe and reliance on electronics increases to the point where auto-malfunction control and GPS power assisted landings happens.. I'm supposing there'll be new ways to make it dangerous . Not changing batteries in time might become the biggest danger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #42 February 13, 2006 Quotetbrown,the "pretty strange" part was a comment to the fact that in the picture the jumper pulled his reserve belly down which is a good thing with a piggyback but far from ideal with a chestmounted reserve. If you notice his hands you will not see a ripcord. I am pretty sure the deployment was unintentional. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nitrochute 2 #43 February 13, 2006 the ripcord is visible in his right hand(the cable appears as a dark line pointing at 11 o clock.a little hard to tell on the computer screen but it is there.i have seen the actual centerfold of skydiver magazine ,where you can not only see the cable,but the handle as well.this was an intentional deployment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #44 February 13, 2006 You are right. In that case it is a bad position to dump a chest mount. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nitrochute 2 #45 February 13, 2006 agreed.luckily it didnt deploy between his legs.OUCH Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,048 #46 February 14, 2006 Hi Sparky, That photo is the 2nd in a series of 3 that appeared in Skydiver sometime in '64. In the 1st photo (not shown here) he has his hand on the reserve ripcord. It definitely was an intentional deployment, for the camera. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #47 February 14, 2006 QuoteHi Sparky, That photo is the 2nd in a series of 3 that appeared in Skydiver sometime in '64. In the 1st photo (not shown here) he has his hand on the reserve ripcord. It definitely was an intentional deployment, for the camera. The man has big balls or a small brain. Maybe both. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #36 February 11, 2006 Hi Sparky, That is exactly what I am talking about. Now, do not misunderstand, I think the snap-shackle and its options are a great idea. However, the thought that you can do it easily in the air under a HP malfunction because you want to get away from the crowd is simply wrong. And people are only fooling themselves if they believe it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #37 February 11, 2006 QuoteHi Sparky, That is exactly what I am talking about. Now, do not misunderstand, I think the snap-shackle and its options are a great idea. However, the thought that you can do it easily in the air under a HP malfunction because you want to get away from the crowd is simply wrong. And people are only fooling themselves if they believe it. You don't think skydivers would overestimate their abilities do you? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #38 February 12, 2006 Given the wimpy springs in the original spider and umbrella type pilot chutes, I doubt if they would have made much difference. The other deteriorating factor was civilians keeping military surplus pilot chutes in service ten times the military service life. Weak pilot chute springs were the norm with belly-mounted reserves. The last time that I wore a belly wart with a spider type pilot chute was in 1986 - when the West German Army was desperately searching for a replacement for their (non-netted) T-10s. I burned dozens of holes in the main, but fortunately it was descending slowly enough that I did not have to pull my reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #39 February 12, 2006 Quotein reply to " it`s pretty strange that anyone lived through it. " ............................. Agreed. Those old rigs were amazing and the people who jumped them with smiles on their faces even more so. We're all so lucky to have such great gear today . My guess is most modern skydivers wouldn't even consider going skydiving if the old rigs were still the only option. But that's exactly what the kids are going to think in 20 years when they look at your Javelin/Micron/Infinity/whatever, with your 9 cell elliptical that might even be cross-braced, with its collapsible p/c, and your freebagged 7 cell reserve. And the Cypres/Vigil unit ? It will send shivers up their spine ! But this is the best gear we've ever known, and thirty years ago an early model Wonderhog or Racer, with a hand deployed 5 cell Strato Star and a 26 ft. low porosity conical round reserve was the cutting edge. And a decade before that, a Mini System with a 3 pin ripcord deployed Paracommander, and a CHEST MOUNTED round reserve was the cat's ass of a rig. Notice I don't even mention AAD's because we didn't have them, didn't trust them, and didn't want them. They were for students only. But we all jumped these rigs with confidence, because they worked. Even the cutaways worked and the reserves opened. Hell, my first rig was entirely military surplus and it opened every time (obviously). we still don't have perfect rigs. We still don't have a foolproof way of dealing with a pilot chute in tow, or preventing a ram air from collapsing in the wrong kind of turbulence. AAD's still won't re-arm themselves quickly enough from a cutaway below a grand. Our gear's better, but there's room for improvement. And I doubt the perfect rig will ever exist. As for the grins on all those faces, well that's a no brainer. They wuz skydivin' ! They wuz feelin' GOOD. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
niu 0 #40 February 12, 2006 tbrown,the "pretty strange" part was a comment to the fact that in the picture the jumper pulled his reserve belly down which is a good thing with a piggyback but far from ideal with a chestmounted reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #41 February 13, 2006 in reply to "My guess is most modern skydivers wouldn't even consider going skydiving if the old rigs were still the only option. ................................ -but that's exactly what the kids are going to think in 20 years ------------------------------------- Mmm..... nice perspective. In 20-30 years time the new kids may be wondering what all the fuss was about as skydiving gets more and more safe and reliance on electronics increases to the point where auto-malfunction control and GPS power assisted landings happens.. I'm supposing there'll be new ways to make it dangerous . Not changing batteries in time might become the biggest danger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #42 February 13, 2006 Quotetbrown,the "pretty strange" part was a comment to the fact that in the picture the jumper pulled his reserve belly down which is a good thing with a piggyback but far from ideal with a chestmounted reserve. If you notice his hands you will not see a ripcord. I am pretty sure the deployment was unintentional. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nitrochute 2 #43 February 13, 2006 the ripcord is visible in his right hand(the cable appears as a dark line pointing at 11 o clock.a little hard to tell on the computer screen but it is there.i have seen the actual centerfold of skydiver magazine ,where you can not only see the cable,but the handle as well.this was an intentional deployment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #44 February 13, 2006 You are right. In that case it is a bad position to dump a chest mount. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nitrochute 2 #45 February 13, 2006 agreed.luckily it didnt deploy between his legs.OUCH Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #46 February 14, 2006 Hi Sparky, That photo is the 2nd in a series of 3 that appeared in Skydiver sometime in '64. In the 1st photo (not shown here) he has his hand on the reserve ripcord. It definitely was an intentional deployment, for the camera. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #47 February 14, 2006 QuoteHi Sparky, That photo is the 2nd in a series of 3 that appeared in Skydiver sometime in '64. In the 1st photo (not shown here) he has his hand on the reserve ripcord. It definitely was an intentional deployment, for the camera. The man has big balls or a small brain. Maybe both. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
