benefit of a static line?

[Biscuit 0]

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Most DZs in my area (New England) have largely abandoned static line

I really think this is a shame. I am a new student (1 tandem, 8 jumps into s/l progression) and I know for a fact that no matter how bad I wanted this I would not have been able to afford AFF.

As I said I am very new, but does anyone see this as a trend towards eliminating s/l? If so isn't there a danger of the sport becoming a rich man's sport? (As opposed to a rich man's sport/guy living in his van sport)

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The last mosquito that bit me had to book into the Betty Ford Clinic. -Patsy

[billbooth 10]

I know you asked for the benefits of Static Line, but there is one great big disadvantage that ought to be discussed, and that is safety. SL is many times more dangerous than a tandem/AFF progression. For instance, in the past four years there has been only been one tandem fatality , while there have been many static line fatalities...and many more people make tandem first jumps than static line first jumps. AFF's safety record is also excellent. Doing a static line is like going solo in an aircraft (or car) before you receive any dual instruction. There is simply no need to do it anymore. I was an active static line instructor for over 10 years, and although I never lost a student, they kept trying to kill themselves all the time. That's why I developed tandem. My heart just couldn't take kicking 'em out the door, and hoping for the best anymore.

[skyboyblue 0]

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I There is simply no need to do it anymore. .

true, but small, one cessna dz's might not have any other means available to progress students. AFF you need at least 2 AFF I's there to get one student in the air. sometimes that's not feasable.

yeah I agree AFF is the superior method of instruction, although we all end up at roughly the same point at about the A license. One advantage I think S/L has over AFF is the ability to open or get out out low. I see a lot turbine jumpers think 4k as a hop n pop. that's a 10 second delay to me.

sbb-oh and tandems who continue with s/l do seem to do better than only s/l jumpers, partly because they have that awesome feeling of freefall to use as a goal.

[ernokaikkonen 0]

>AFF you need at least 2 AFF I's there to get one student in the air.

I thought some variation of the AFP only used one instructor after the tandem jumps?

[freakous 0]

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because during the tandem jump I wasn't wearing anything on my noggin while during the AFF I'm required to wear a helmet .



I am really surprised that you weren't wearing a frap hat on your tandem ride.

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[Hooknswoop 19]

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because during the tandem jump I wasn't wearing anything on my noggin while during the AFF I'm required to wear a helmet .



I am really surprised that you weren't wearing a frap hat on your tandem ride.

Why? Frap hats are next to worthless for actually protedcting your head and it makes communication difficult between the instructor and their passenger.

Hook

[Hooknswoop 19]

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>AFF you need at least 2 AFF I's there to get one student in the air.

I thought some variation of the AFP only used one instructor after the tandem jumps?

USPA requires the student to demonstrate the ability to pull stable, on time twice before going w/ one instructor. So 2 tandems, then one instructor AFF/AFP.

Hook

[billvon 2,421]

>SL is many times more dangerous than a tandem/AFF progression.

I haven't seen any statistics on this. Over the history of skydiving, this is certainly true, but I think that's because SL was the only method around when 4-pin containers, cones and opening bands were the equipment of the day. But is a modern direct bag static line jump any less safe than an AFF with the same student?

Static line students scare me as well, but the scariest students I've had by far have been AFF's. We've had level-1's throw off both instructors and go onto a flat spin on their back. We've had them clamp their hand over the ripcord and webbing and refuse to budge it. And while I've had several SL students do remarkably stupid things out the door, I've seen very few mals from such behavior.

I can't compare it to a AFP program, since we don't have such a program. But comparing SL to AFF, I don't see one having a significant safety advantage over the other for the first time jumper.

[riggerrob 558]

Frap hats provide two types of protection for tandem students.
First, frap hats keep lawyers off our backs.
Secondly, frap hats prevent dread locks.

[freakous 0]

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because during the tandem jump I wasn't wearing anything on my noggin while during the AFF I'm required to wear a helmet .



I am really surprised that you weren't wearing a frap hat on your tandem ride.

Why? Frap hats are next to worthless for actually protedcting your head and it makes communication difficult between the instructor and their passenger.

Hook

Hook, given you have a Tandem rating and are several fold more experienced then I, It was more of a liability statement. I do agree that the frap hat won't give much protection, but a little is more than none. Yes, we are in this sport because we love it and because we enjoy helping others, yet at the same time don't you try and reduce as much risk as possible? I only have five Tandem rights...three for T.I. recurrency or rating. The frap hat has not been a communication issue. But, yes obviously your experiences are going to be more meaningful.

[Hooknswoop 19]

I think frap hats are OK for abrasion forces, but not impact forces. I think they were designed for bicyclists and are meant to protect the head when sliding down pavement. They were designed before modern helmet technology was around. I thin the tubes concentrate a wide area of impact on the head, opposite of modern helmets.

I have done tandems wearing a hard helmet, a frap hat, and no helmet, and with my passengers wearing a frap hat and no helmet.

I have never hit my head on a tandem (820 tandems to date), nor have I had a passenger hit their head. I have found it easier to communicate w/ the passenger when we are not wearing helmets. I think this is very important. If you have to yell to be heard, it is difficult to sound calm, and if you have to repeat yourself, because they are having difficulty hearing you, it can be distracting and hinder the safety of the tandem. "OK, grab your harness again and push your hips forward" "What?" CHINK. "WHAT!?!?!"

Just my experience.

Hook

[Casch 0]

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...I've had several SL students do remarkably stupid things out the door...

Hey! I resemble that remark!

[dterrick 0]

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I see a lot turbine jumpers think 4k as a hop n pop. that's a 10 second delay to me.

"Ten seconds?!?! I count to 'eleven' because, well, eleven is 'longer' than ten"
- N. Tufnell

Still, take a C-182 hnp from 3k and dive into a front loop then box out and pull... THAT'S an eternity (kids, don't try this at home, these are trained Professionals at play)

Dave (the Dangerous?)

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[dterrick 0]

...seriously, in reply to my previous post, my first 2 door dive-outs (rather than step dives) BOTH resulted in frontloops for whatever reason. Yes, the JM on the step was a bit 'concerned' as we were at IAD level @ 3k (though my CoP gave me to 2200 to pull) and reminded me that HNP's wee NOT the time to play acrobat. I wan't, I just hadn't 'mastered' the particular exit at that time but it was the exit the JM wanted to save a go-round (ALWAYS be nice to the DZO's fuel bill if you can)

- we must ALWAYS present a reasonable and prudent example for our FJC students no matter how experienced or talented (or lucky) we are. The JM's that taught me drilled that into my head over and over again. Too, they taught me the FIRST rule of skydiving is "have fun but be safe".

Dave

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[oeriksson 0]

I am a SL student at jump 13. Because of the weather I have gotten this far in about 2 months. I don't know about the AFF but if you ask me SL seams to be the better choice. As people have already said, you get many more jumps with the SL program than AFF and I think this is highly beneficial. I was really scared to leave the airplane the first jumps and it felt good knowing that I could just jump out and relax and the parachute would still deploy.

Actually I liked having one week, sometimes several weeks, between most of the jumps. It gave me lots of time to think about the jumps and to prepare myself. I had problems "recording" the feelings during the jumps and having such a long time between the jumps gave me time to relive every jump. That definitely helped me a lot. I think that if I had done all the jumps in one weekend I wouldn't have had time to think about what I had just done.

Last time I did jump 12 (freefall from 1500m) after a 3 week break. Although I was more nervous than normal because of the long delay, I had already played the jump in my head a thousand times and when I finally did it, I was really aware about everything and it felt just like last time. It was as if I had learned so much by those 3 weeks off jumping.

Olle

[cgross 1]

Where I jump they do what is called an IAF program. Alot cheaper than the AFF program. It is mad up of:
3 tandem
lvl4-8 Jump w/1 instruct
Lvl 9 Solo
lvl 10-12 2 ways with instruct
lvl 13 H&P

It caomes out to be about $1500 total to get off student status. Some people may consider this expensive, but it is not at all. When comparing this to many sports which require equipment and field/rink time... it all adds up about the same.

I know coming from a SL program you may think these are less safe, but that has not been my experience at all. The instructors where I jump are excellent and some of the most cautious people I know. I feel very safe as a student.

Also, IAF jumps are progressively cheaper.
Tandems 155 each
lvl 4-8 130 each
lvl9 35
lvl10-12 75 each
lvl 13 $50

c