Hooknswoop 19 #26 November 20, 2002 QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For side-by-side, it's outside rear risers (right rear of the right canopy and left rear of the left) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For a side-by-side (who came up with the names for this stuff anyway?) I recommend steering with the rear risers of the dominant (more over your head, most likely the main) canopy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- so which one is it ? (or is it one of those things where there is not "right" way?) and, if the toggles are unstowed, does it change the answer ? Well you have been presented w/ two options. you must decide for yourself what you would do. If you have a specific question as to why I recommend the method I do, I will do my best to answer it. If the brakes are released on one or both canopies it may or may not make a difference. I released the brakes on the Stiletto 97, and left the brakes stowed on the PD-170 and they still fly together just fine. Too many variables. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScratchTX 0 #27 November 22, 2002 I had two out around jump 40.(PC in burble -- saw NOTHING overhead after deploying, two, three, four, still at terminal after checking, looking, twisting, decided I needed a canopy NOW, went to silver) I'd done a little CRW but not enough to even think about making them downplane, just enough to not freak at seeing two canopies flying a side by side. My thought process as it happened: *Good, I am not at terminal anymore, about time. *oh shit there goes my freebag falling down *Can I grab it? *No, it's deploying LET GO, let it go *oh shit I'm having two out, should I cut away now? * no. compatible canopies, I can see the reserve deploying to my side, clear of main. Don't know which/what riser is doing what in front of my neck. *Is that riser that is in front of my neck going to strangle me as the canopy opens? *Better put my fist in there and tuck my chin hard *Okay now I have two canopies flying a stable side by side and I am still breathing, not strangled *If it aint broke, don't fix it. I am low, leave it alone. Unstow nothing. *Used body input to steer away from obstacle area [I know this should not have been possible with such big low-performance canopies, but I did it] * prepared for a controlled crash on landing, no flare but 300 sq ft of nylon overhead *Poor PLF, knocked the wind out of myself *walked away, bruised and very humbled I had read the pia report before, knew that if they downplaned I'd have to cut away, but also felt fairly confident that if I gave no radical inputs, there was no real reason that they would not maintain a side by side. Excepting the "shit happens" condition. Wendy yelled at me and told me if I wanted to do more CRW, I should do it with her, and not by myself... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oeriksson 0 #28 November 24, 2002 Scary situation. Glad you got out of it ok. What is it that makes the canopies go into down-plane or what can you do to make this happen? I'm a little interested to know what causes this so you will have an idea of the chances that a side-by-side will go into down-plane. ScratchTX, you said you used body inputs to steer away from obstacles. What does that mean exactly, rear risers? Regards Olle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScratchTX 0 #29 November 25, 2002 Yes it was scary when I thought about it later. At the time as my second canopy deployed, I did think "this could be the one, where I die," but then I didn't and then I was busy.Some good preparation and planning and lots of luck worked in my favor. Body input for turns? Actually, I have gotten so uncurrent over the past year that I don't think i could accurately tell you how I did this. I need to review it next weekend. (What if I had to use it again?) Basically, you use weight shift in the harness, and, specifically, raise and twist a knee to turn your canopy. I understand it has MUCH more of an effect on more highly loaded higher performance canopies, and in theory should not even have an effect on the big old dogs I was flying -- but all I know is I saw an ugly area with power lines, and a better area with just some small trees, and changed direction by lifting/shifting my knees. Intuition tells me I shifted my weight/knees hard left to turn left -- but as I say, it has been a long time since I did this and I may have it entirely backwards. Anyone more current on this/with more snap who could explain accurately how to turn a canopy with just body input/weight shift? --Scratch in Texas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #30 November 25, 2002 Quote"look Red grab red, look silver grab silver, do what's RIGHT and then what's LEFT over". Haven't heard THATone before! Anyway, Jessica -- good question! I have nothing to add -- but I'm getin' lotsa good info from everyone else! Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3fLiEr 0 #31 November 26, 2002 This is based on my experience and is not advice on what to do. I had a cypress fire (long story - complete idiot) as i was deploying my main (cypress fire on line stretch) - I had a Sabre135 and PD126R out - now already you are terribly low - advice about cutting away your main goes out of the window when you are that low as your mind says to you that its not an option - I steered my main with rear risers very carefully - toward a clear area and let the canopies fly together - I tried not to fly the canopies as much as possible - my friend also had a cypress fire 10 days later - but he tried to steer his main with rear risers agressively with the result of his canopies then went into a downplane approx 80ft from the ground - he crashed through trees which broke his fall. Dont go so low you have a cypress fire ! they can kill aswell as save!! Be Safe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrHankey 0 #32 December 5, 2002 Perhaps I can lend you some advice on this subject - question the advice given to you. I had 2 canopies out (cypress fire on rented gear), landed both of them without a scratch, and heard all kinds of "advice" from the rookie to the pro on how they would've handled it. NONE of these people had 2 canopies out before and therefore could only speculate. Feeling like I didn't know what I was doing (and told so), I asked the DZ safety manager and the most safety oriented instructor I knew and they both said this: "screw what everyone told you, you had a serious problem, you did what you felt was necessary to LIVE, and therefore handled the situation perfect" Had I listened to all the "advice" given to me, it may not have turned out as well. Flying a Diablo 150 with a raven 170r I stuggled with a stuffed handle after going too low in the first place, deployed at about 1200 (should've went to my reserve IMMEDIATELY, learned my lesson) the main sniveled and the cypres blew at about 700. The main just finished inflating when the reserve came in behind it. I released nothing. The canopies then flew to a side by side and the main started to try to get away from the reserve. I thought - you're not going anywhere!!! - I immediately grabbed the INSIDE rear riser from the "wanting to downplane" main and GENTLY steered the main into the stable side by side I landed. I was at 300 ft. any move to force a downplane would've been BAD. I ever so gently steered the new buddies using the back risers for approach, and landed like a kitten under all that material. Don't let the 2 canopies out situation is all the advice I can give, and trust your instincts. Having a "feel" of the trouble I was in saved me. Now I pull on time, every time. Howdy Hoooo! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vlady 0 #33 January 11, 2003 If you have a well behaved side-by-side, wouldn’t steering with outside raisers (Left on Left canopy and Right on Right) turn canopies away from each other and make them go into a downplane? Mind you, I'm still a greenhorn and have no experience with two out malfunctions. Hell, I don't even have a license yet; but I read everything, about skydiving, I can get my little hands on. I was just thinking from the physics point of view. I did read the PIA Dual Square Report on the research test about two parachutes out (it was performed by the US Army Parachute Team and Scott Smith). You can read it her: http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf. They concluded that the biplane is the most common configuration and that you should gently steer the dominant - front canopy (with toggles) and leave brakes on the back canopy stowed. Cutting main in a biplane was never mentioned. Second most common setout was side-by-side, where you should steer with the dominant (larger and above) canopy. If they used outside risers (or toggles), canopies went into a downplane. If they steered with all four, canopies would fly into a nose-to-nose. They called both situations "not a desirable result", how cute. What I found interesting in this report is a statement that downplane (third most common result) very often returns into a side-by-side, without any input. However, the only time the report recommends a cutaway as the first action of choice is if the "downplane is present". It seemed that the overwhelming message was to do what you are suppose to do with the normal opening. Check if you have an open parachute above your head -- duh, check if it's controllable and find a safe place to land. What do you think?------------- S0S0 ------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #34 January 11, 2003 QuoteIf you have a well behaved side-by-side, wouldn’t steering with outside raisers (Left on Left canopy and Right on Right) turn canopies away from each other and make them go into a downplane? Yes. Pulling both outside toggles will do the same thing, too. Initiating a downplane is a very legitimate solution to two out and flying side by side. Make sure you have enough altitude, though. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #35 January 11, 2003 QuoteIf you have a well behaved side-by-side, wouldn’t steering with outside raisers (Left on Left canopy and Right on Right) turn canopies away from each other and make them go into a downplane? If I intentionally had a side-by-side over my head and wanted to turn them into a downplane, I would pull on the outside risers or toggles. So if I was un-intentionally under a side-by-side, I would either a) fly the man with the reaer risers, leaving the brakes stowed on both canopies, or b) cutaway the main canopy. Which choice I would make would depend on what 2 canpoies were over my head, how they were flying, and if the main would clear if I cut it away. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #36 January 11, 2003 Quote2. It takes more deflection of a rear riser to turn a canopy than it takes deflection of a toggle, and you want to mess with the (hopefully stable) configuration as little as possible. An inch of rear riser on my Lightning will cause it to turn far more than an inch of toggle, but the response is considerably slower. There's definitely more control with toggles. I'm not likely to find myself in a two out because I don't have Cypres and my main is gone by the time I'm pulling the reserve handle. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
