Instructors How Do YOU Teach PC In Tow

[sducoach 0]

Instructors only Please. This poll spawns from another poll asking do you cut away first or go for the silver. I'm looking for responses from Instructors to see how the majority are teaching this.

Non-Instructors please comment but try to keep the poll representing current teaching methods by not voting on the poll.

Thank You!

J.E.

James 4:8

[Shark 0]

Wow, I'm the first?? Beer? Nah...
I was taught that if you deploy the pc, get a pc in tow, go through the emergency procedures. The logic being that the reserve may in fact, deploy the main. If you've gone through your emergency procedures the main will release, and not result in a 2 out scenario. This is what I teach my students.

[MrHixxx 0]

It is a moot point with our student gear. They all have SOS handles.

-Hixxx

death,as men call him, ends what they call men
-but beauty is more now than dying’s when

[Jimbo 0]

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It is a moot point with our student gear. They all have SOS handles.

And what will you teach your students when they buy their own gear? Or do you simply expect them to buy SOS gear?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Luna 0]

We are told the pros and cons of each method, given a gentle nudging toward following full emergencey procedures, but told to make our own decision based on all the facts and what we feel most comfortable with. The main thing that is stressed is to make a decision NOW on how we will handle it, and not deviate from that plan at decision time.

I'm walking a marathon to raise money for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. Click Here for more information!

[mikeat10500 10]

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It is a moot point with our student gear. They all have SOS handles.

And what will you teach your students when they buy their own gear? Or do you simply expect them to buy SOS gear?

-
Jim

And that is exactly why we do not use SOS systems
for our students..." first learned, first remembered...transition can kill" .
PC in tow...you have to tell them the truth. But don't
ever let it happen to them...very bad,bad mojo.
...mike

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[markbaur 0]

Every freefall skydive starts with a "not there" malfunction. The fix for this malfunction is to pull a ripcord (generic: may be ripcord, pull-out, throw-out).
If you don't like the results, then cut away and pull your reserve.
Mark

[D22369 0]

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Instructors only Please. This poll spawns from another poll asking do you cut away first or go for the silver. I'm looking for responses from Instructors to see how the majority are teaching this.

---->Cutaway, pull reserve

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

• Quote

[MrHixxx 0]

Sorry, I was just thinking in terms of FJC...
Once they transition, it is straight to the reserve. The emphasis being on the speed of the malfunction and needing to get something out in the wind.
My instructor summed up malfunctions quite neatly with "Shit, No Shit", when I was young and confused. If you have garbage (Shit) above your head from a deployment, cut and deploy. If you have nothing, the container is closed (No Shit), deploy.

-Hixxx

death,as men call him, ends what they call men
-but beauty is more now than dying’s when

[Kris 0]

I teach them to cutaway then go for silver.

I don't want a low jump number student screaming through freefall trying to decide which procedure goes with what.

One procedure is much simpler for them to deal with given the amount of sensory overload they have to contend with as a new jumper.

Once they get more experience and awareness, then we can talk about other possible techniques for dealing with different emergency situations.

Kris

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[nightjumps 1]

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I teach them to cutaway then go for silver.

I don't want a low jump number student screaming through freefall trying to decide which procedure goes with what.

One procedure is much simpler for them to deal with given the amount of sensory overload they have to contend with as a new jumper.

Once they get more experience and awareness, then we can talk about other possible techniques for dealing with different emergency situations.

EXACTLY what I teach, Kris.

...Bigun

[Tonto 1]

Mmm. So in my book a pilot chute in tow would be "Shit" or does it not count cos its only a little bit of shit... but the start of a giant turd about to happen...

I teach Cut Away - Pull reserve. No thinking - 1 drill.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[MrHixxx 0]

Nope, doesn't qualify. PC in tow is but a mere dingleberry
-Hixxx

death,as men call him, ends what they call men
-but beauty is more now than dying’s when

[tombuch 0]

I teach that if you have deployed the pilot chute you should cutaway. If you can't deploy the pilot chute (can't find it, hard pull) go right for the reserve.

I understand the concept behind teaching the reserve handle for a pilot chute in tow, but I don't really like it. There is a pretty good chance that the pilot chute will clear once the reserve opens and pressure is off the main container, and also a chance that it is just a hesitation.

I strongly object to suggesting a student make any effort to evaluate the pilot chute in tow or make any decision in the air. The decision should be made NOW on the ground and then implemented if there is a malfunction. With students, I'm the guy that makes that decision for them, and my decision is to cutaway.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
Author "JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy"

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[crwmike 0]

All have their pros and cons. I strongly agree with Tom that the decision should be make and practiced on the ground.

I lean towards ONE procedure (for students) for ALL functions. I believe the argument that choping (with a total, for instance) takes more time and you want your student to GET SOMETHING OUT!. Well then, teach them one system and drill them on the ground. You are eliminating (as much as possible) the number one altitude eater ...figuring out what to do.

But hell, I havent taught a student in over a decade,so WTF do I know?

BSBD,

Michael

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I teach that if you have deployed the pilot chute you should cutaway. If you can't deploy the pilot chute (can't find it, hard pull) go right for the reserve.

I understand the concept behind teaching the reserve handle for a pilot chute in tow, but I don't really like it. There is a pretty good chance that the pilot chute will clear once the reserve opens and pressure is off the main container, and also a chance that it is just a hesitation.

I strongly object to suggesting a student make any effort to evaluate the pilot chute in tow or make any decision in the air. The decision should be made NOW on the ground and then implemented if there is a malfunction. With students, I'm the guy that makes that decision for them, and my decision is to cutaway.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
Author "JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy"

[rigging65 0]

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The decision should be made NOW on the ground and then implemented if there is a malfunction.

Absolutely, so why not teach them well on the ground with a procedure that is more likely to keep them out of trouble (going straight to the reserve on a pc in tow)? If you teach it well, they WILL do it when the time comes. If you half-ass your instruction, then they might be confused and execute the wrong procedure...there are no bad students, only bad teachers.

It's a waste of time to cutaway in a pc in tow...and what happens if their cutaway handle is rolled under/they can't find it/they dip their head to look for it/ they pull both hands in to reach for it...the list goes on. What I'm getting at is that, in freefall, a less experienced jumper might not keep stability while they're doing all this moving around...not to mention the time they're wasting as they're cruising along at 120 mph. Students tend to have less spacial awareness during a skydive, so they may not understand how much time they're wasting.

IMO, If you're not confident that your student knows their emergency procedures and is smart enough/well taught to make the skydive, then you have no business putting them out of a plane. Keep teaching until they know it...burn it into their little brains...it may save their life later on.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

For a PC in tow, I teach cutaway and pull the reserve as long as there is sufficient altitude to do both. I think it is easier for students to remember that if they pulled anything out to just go through the sequence of using your handles in order. The only exception is the horseshoe. If they have a premature main activation i.e. pin pops out, risers/control lines coming out in freefall, they did not pull anything out themselves. In that case I teach use your handles in order. Pilot chute first then cutaway handle then reserve. In all other cases if you did not pull anything out, go straight to the reserve.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[mustard 0]

I teach the pull/no pull scenario. If you pulled something, and it's not deploying, cut away and pull the reserve.

***
DJan

[crwmike 0]

The scales tip toward your end of the discussion only if you accept that the time spent determining what is going on and what procedure to implement is negligible. I don't accept that.

Not under a good canopy ...chop/reserve. Cutaway handle not visible? try once, try twice ...reserve time.

There are pros and cons to each philosophy.

Half-ass instruction, well, there's a lot of it out there but you need to factor in the time (altitude!) delay in the student determining what is wrong and what to do about it. I think it wise to minimize this time.

BSBD,

Michael

Michael


[Absolutely, so why not teach them well on the ground with a procedure that is more likely to keep them out of trouble (going straight to the reserve on a pc in tow)? If you teach it well, they WILL do it when the time comes. If you half-ass your instruction, then they might be confused and execute the wrong procedure...there are no bad students, only bad teachers.

It's a waste of time to cutaway in a pc in tow...and what happens if their cutaway handle is rolled under/they can't find it/they dip their head to look for it/ they pull both hands in to reach for it...the list goes on. What I'm getting at is that, in freefall, a less experienced jumper might not keep stability while they're doing all this moving around...not to mention the time they're wasting as they're cruising along at 120 mph. Students tend to have less spacial awareness during a skydive, so they may not understand how much time they're wasting.

IMO, If you're not confident that your student knows their emergency procedures and is smart enough/well taught to make the skydive, then you have no business putting them out of a plane. Keep teaching until they know it...burn it into their little brains...it may save their life later on.

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

HI CRW Mike,

Your response has made me re-evaluate the cutaway before reserve deployment and raises some good points. But what do you think the chances are that if the pilot chute was already in tow it may have loosened up the pin a little bit and then the activation of the reserve parachute could jostle the container enough so the main comes out too? I have tried to picture all the scenarios and really am not sure which method of teaching is "the right one".

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[crwmike 0]

Hello Jennifer.

No doubt about it, the chance exists that your
cutaway main could come out (fairly good chance) and entangle with your reserve (low odds but I would really hate to be a statistical exception).

The argument that it would be better to have two canopies out and deal with that has frequently been voiced. I agree with their argument ...assuming that you would have two canopies out and not two entangled with eachother. What are the odds on each of these event? Hell if I know.

And that brings us back to ...time. Time from awareness of a problem, determination of what kind of problem it is and what procedure to initiate. How many students would die from a main reserve entanglement vs the number would fuck with it too long?

My personal emergency plan is to deploy the reserve without cutting away, but would I teach this to students and low-timers. After factoring in the time (several hundreds of feet) spent figuring out what is happening and what plan to initiate, I think the one plan method the better life saver.

There is no clear winner here and all the plans discussed have merit. Choose the one you think is best to teach and drill, drill, drill.

Michael

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HI CRW Mike,

Your response has made me re-evaluate the cutaway before reserve deployment and raises some good points. But what do you think the chances are that if the pilot chute was already in tow it may have loosened up the pin a little bit and then the activation of the reserve parachute could jostle the container enough so the main comes out too? I have tried to picture all the scenarios and really am not sure which method of teaching is "the right one".

[sducoach 0]

Mike Fedak?
Same way I was taught and same way I teach but, if you look at the poll the "cut away" bunch is by far the most common method of teaching. It boils down to "Fords & Chevys". Simply choose your method and do it!
Thank you to all who participated.
Blues,
J.E.

James 4:8

[poohbeer 0]

in the thread there seems to be an agreement that directly pulling reserve might be the better option. But why is that? The main won't do you good anymore but could entangle.. so why not cut away that thing? Simply to preserve altitude?

(only starting AFF in 3 days so bare with me if I say something stupid)

------- SIGNATURE BELOW -------
Complete newbie at skydiving, so be critical about what I say!!
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[AggieDave 6]

Ok, here's what I would do: Pull the reserve, then cutaway if needed (i.e. the d-bag came out, after the reserve left).

Here's what I teach: 1 response to non-recoverable malfuncitions. Look grab, look grab, peel pull, peel pull. I don't change that when teaching. If they're going to pull their reserve, they're going to do both.

Why? Well, in a First Jump Course (or tandem transition course), why confuse a student who is on the verge of information overload (or way past the verge) with variations in their malfunction training? Got a mal that doesn't meet the 3 requirements (is it there, is it square, is it steerable) and you can't corrected it before your 2500ft hard-deck, then do this sequence of events. Any thing else might confuse a student. Later on in their training, while reviewing malfunctions (as in around Cat F or G), I'll tell them what *I* would do and my reasoning behind it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Tonto 1]

This is exactly what I teach. If you're started a deployment sequence, cutaway and then reserve. If you cant find the main or cant pull - go straight for the reserve.

t

It's the year of the Pig.