Overconfidence...even as a puke student

[Speer 0]

Hello All,

Well, I'd hoped it would be some time before I posted anything about myself here...not to be. I had the opportunity to make several jumps last Wed & Thur. On Wed I made my first jump from A C-206, my first swooping & docking, and, my first jump with my own pack job... BEER! Thur I went back hoping to get the five jumps I needed to earn my "A"! First jump was a hop-n-pop from the Otter @ 3000'. The end result of that jump was a much less than perfect deployment, followed by a botched landing that culminated in a significant ankle strain (including lots of little bone fragments around the periphery of the ankle socket). No jumping now for awhile!

Root cause was over confidence, Even at only jump #16.

My Background: I'm almost 50 (read, lots of experience at learning how not to do things and wanting to change that), not overly aggressive (in my opinion for what thats worth) at hurrying through, not very concerned with what others think about me, strongly motivated to do it right, and very attentive to my instructors who know infinitely more than I do!

My mindset about the dive: Given the choice by my instructor on type of exit, I chose Poised, over Floating, because I have been nailing all my poised exits perfectly!, while I had only done one floating exit previously. I felt very comfortable flying and landing the giant Manta (0.8:1) at our DZ which has some of the most stable winds imaginable. I really was not nervous about my proximity to the ground (I've read so much about many AFF students being spooked about it).

The Reality: I was concentrating on the short count so much (reach to throw on two), that I totally puked the arch on exit...it was closer to a Mantis position. Although I did count, I must have started before I stepped out, because I was reaching to throw at just a few feet out the door! Combine PPP (piss poor position) with my failure to bring my left hand to the forward position as I reached to throw, and I started a turn to the right just as I pitched the PC. Bridle went over leg inside of right foot SHIT OH DEAR! A quick roll and kick rectified that problem, and a very mild, sweet opening followed.

The ride down was nice, transitioning through a couple of wind direction changes between 2500' and my approach on final... Seeing that the winds were funky, I looked long and hard at the flags and wind sock. Although the winds were predominately out of the West (normal) I saw they were now changing to Northerly, which meant I wanted to land across the DZ the "narrow" way. Being the good little student who obeys my instructors, I flew a normal pattern parallel to the runway downwind, a quick 180 to avoid overflying the runway (even though the Otter was climbing to 13500' for the other jumpers), and then did a ~60 degree flat turn into the wind at ~ 70' and flew toward fence with plenty of room to flare... at the last second before touchdown I realized that my forward speed was higher than normal and I'd have to run it out... no big deal. As I reached_out_to_run, I realized my vertical speed was also higher than "normal" too!

Not sure of what exactly happened in the next half second, but I believe I stiff-legged the landing with my left leg before rolling into a PLF... too late! I think I probably lost the wind at or near flare as I believe I had completed my flat turn high enough to let the canopy fully fly again.

Bottom Line: I didn't spend enough time visualizing and concentrating on the steps of the dive that I was TOO COMFORTABLE with. Well, I just bought some more experience, and the price was actually low given the possible outcome of a bridle between the legs...

Don't fail to concentrate on each step of the dive, just because you're comfortable with your performance so far... well, I guess this will give my son a chance to catch up with me on the march to "A", he's at 9 jumps.

Geez, is this a novel, or at least a chapter?

Fly Safe,

Russ

Generally, it is your choice; will your life serve as an example... or a warning?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Russ

I hope you're feeling better soon. I can understand the confidence feelings you may have had. I was never one to get nervous with my dives. But there is an important saying in skydiving. It goes something like this "The trick towards making better skydives in the future is to survive the ones you do today".

It's hard to know what went wrong with your landing (we can speculate until we're green, but we weren't there). I never had much success standing up the monster student canopies I first learned on, so I had plenty of PLF practice on those early jumps. But once you start flying a canopy which has some forward speed and a flare to arrest the vertical decent, your landings will become much better. So don't beat yourself up too much for biffing on a student rig. But do remember to respect the dangers of the sport (yikes spoken from someone who came about 20-30 feet away from hooking a turn too low the other day).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Speer 0]

Thanks Steve,

Part of my over confidence was that I've been standing up all my landings except for three in my first four jumps, so I didn't expect this problem. I actually thought it was going to get harder when I transition to a slightly smaller canopy when I'm off student status, so I'm glad to hear you found it easier!

As for nervousness, I think I have an appropriate "Awe" for the dangers I'm puposefully encountering. Just nervous enough to want to do everything right, but not so puckered as to miss the wonder and enjoyment on each dive. And of course the satisfaction is awesome.

It may be a bit old fashioned, but, I also feel a strong sense of obligation to my instructors to do well. They are risking their lives to teach us a hazardous skill, and I do not take that lightly. I currently have some fantastic insructors, and I feel bad that I hinked up some basic procedures. I have had a lot of training over the years in many different arenas, mostly hazardous. The price of poorly learned lessons was high! If not immediately, then later when the cost might even be much higher. And you're right, the only way to advance, is to survive todays test.

Russ

Generally, it is your choice; will your life serve as an example... or a warning?

[masher 1]

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But once you start flying a canopy which has some forward speed and a flare to arrest the vertical decent, your landings will become much better.

I went from a 270 to a 195 and did some good landings (~5). My instructors then put me on a 170, which is approaching 1:1 for me. I blew my landings. I didn't even manage to get a PLF in, but I didn't break anything. The fact that there wan't any wind at all contributed to that fact.

I was told that I was starting my flare too high, and not completing it in time. Things happen faster on smaller canopies. When I go up next, I'm asking them to put out a TA for me for my flare.


edit: Aren't students the ones that are most subject to overconfidence? (NB, I'm a student too btw)

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[samp76 0]

I did the same thing. I am going the SL progression route. I nailed everything up to my 2nd 10 sec delay and then it all went to hell.
1st 10 sec was all right, but then the 2nd one I was overconfident about my arch and did not arch enough, ended up on my back got flipped back over and pull after 5 secs, the next 3 10 delay sucked balls.
My last jump was a nice warm day in Jan. They don't come along to many time in Indiana. After watching a Cypres save an experienced jumper, and was on the next load and I must say it was the hardest jump ever. It turned out to be my best skydive yet, and my first cross country(Bad Spot) no big deal. The DZ has corn fields 360 degrees for miles and miles around.

Isn't learning such a fun thing to do.
Have fun and a quick recovery.

--Sam--

Let go of the NUT!!

[wmw999 2,166]

I'm sorry you hurt yourself on landing. On the other hand, you had a great learning experience on the exit, and you shouldn't hope to trade it for anything.

You got to learn a couple of things about yourself and about exiting under different circumstances under as low a pressure situation as could be made. To be perfectly honest, better now when your instructors are busy controlling some of the variables, than later when you decide to go ahead and make some jumps when the ceiling is low, or when the pilot says that everyone has to get out NOW.

There are people who never screw up skydiving. There are a lot more who do. Best to analyze what went wrong like you did, then it's more likely to work the next time. And I'll bet you decide you want to do another hop and pop to make sure you get it right
Wendy W.
(anohter old fart)

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[masher 1]

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I did the same thing. I am going the SL progression route. I nailed everything up to my 2nd 10 sec delay and then it all went to hell.

Sounds like me.

I got up to my delta and then it went in the crapper. I just couldn't exit stable. On this particular jump I ended up deploying at about 5k, head down and back to earth. The d-bag went through my legs, and I thought "This is goin to hurt". I was flipped throught the risers, managed to get e nice cut on my chin and shake my head around a bit.

Landed it ok though...

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[listo 0]

First things first......When you exit an airplane you need to be stable. There are a lot of people that can't exit a plane perfectly stable but when they arch their butt off they tend to get stable really fast.

The first thing any student learns is that he/she has to arch for stability. Reading about students flipping and flailing during deployment and ending up hanging from lines.....well, this really scares me. As far as over confidence goes, I don't think that students need to think about anything but good body positioning and a good flare.

Anyone with less than 100 jumps is a danger to themselves and to other skydivers. If you fall into this category, please concentrate on what you have been taught for each jump. There will be time later on for looking cool. However, most of the time the people that look cool don't try to.

The other thing is this. If you have something to say in here about something you did or what someone else did.......please lets leave out the little naratives. They really don't help anything and might confuse another low time jumper.

I am sorry that you got hurt. I really wish you well with a quick recovery. It sounds like you really enjoy skydiving.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[Ron 7]

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I never had much success standing up the monster
student canopies I first learned on, so I had plenty of PLF practice on those early
jumps

Probley fact...

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But once you start flying a canopy which has some forward speed and a flare to
arrest the vertical decent, your landings will become much better.

A guess from you about this....Why is it I can land anything from a 69 to a tandem canopy with out blaming a bad landing on the canopy...but others think it is the equipment?

Fact is a smaller canopy only ADDS to the landing issues.
It might make the flare easier, but the timing becomes more important.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Probley fact...

Can you speak English for me? It would be much easier to understand what you're trying to say.

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Why is it I can land anything from a 69 to a tandem canopy with out blaming a bad landing on the canopy...but others think it is the equipment?

I guess you're superman and the rest of us are obviously inferior and probably shouldn't even be skydiving.

Quote

Fact is a smaller canopy only ADDS to the landing issues. It might make the flare easier, but the timing becomes more important.

Speed equals lift ... but the forward speed is relative and not something to be taken for granted. For someone like Speer, the speed I use on my landings would likely be uncomfortable just as the forward speed someone like SkymonkeyOne and/or Hooknswoop use would be uncomfortable to myself.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[PhreeZone 15]

>I guess you're superman and the rest of us are obviously inferior and probably shouldn't even be skydiving.

Thats a really bad attitude to have. I had lots of issues standing up student canopies, got a Spectre 170 of my own and suddenly I could stand every thing up. I thought it was the canopy size, that going smaller was the answer since it did the trick for me. I grabed a student rig for a few jumps this summer... guess what? I just sucked as a student since first jump I dead centered it, second I was 1 meter out. It took me flying faster canopies to relate to how a large slow canopy would really work for me. I jumped a totally ragged out student canopy and still had a nice soft landing on it so there should'nt be any reason as long as its loaded over about .7:1 that you can't stand up every landing on a big canopy.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Ron 7]

Why are you insulting me???

Because I don't agree with you?

Thats pretty lame.

Anyway if you with your 100 jumps....Feel that your right. Cool, but your not.

Quote

Speed equals lift

Nope.....speed can be used to transition to lift, but lift is created by the shape of the wing, and in a smaller part to Newtons 3rd law.

Still speed just ADDS to the problem...If you can't land the big canopy...you will create more problems with a faster one...

But I guess I don't know anything......According to you and 100 jumps.

Ron

10 years 2,600 jumps
Private Pilot SEL
Pro rating
Yada, Yada , Yada
But what do I know?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I've been sitting here wonder whether or not I should respond, or whether or not I should just shut up. Well I'm a communicator, so I can remain silent no longer.

First off, if I've come off as over-confident in a sport which is dangerous, then that is my mistake and something I must learn to deal with. But I am a confident person. I have done many things in my life which have succeeded (as well as the fact that I have suffered failures).

Have I hurt myself in sports? Yes many times. Hockey has been the most brutal thing I've been doing to my body for the last 35 years, but I still play it and play it at a high calibre. I'm also a former ski patroller and a rock climber/mountaineer. So I have been exposed to many risky sports and have seen the results of when the human body hits something that it wasn't supposed to hit.

Is this sport any different? Yes and no.

Do I know everything there is to know about this sport? Hell no. I am constantly going through new experiences (one of the things I really like about). Can you honestly say that you know everything about this sport?

But to get back to your question of "why are you insulting me", you must also understand that sometimes some of the people we encounter in life bring out the worst in us. And this is not the first time we've locked horns. I do not disagree with you that new skydivers shouldn't downsize too rapidly. But people will never get better if they aren't allowed to take certain risks and learn from their mistakes, just as long as those risks aren't above their skill levels.

Oh I too am a licensed private pilot (I was a pilot before I became a skydiver). But somehow I can see you demeaning this accomplishment as I'm sure in your mind it no way is equivalent to yours.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[aufreefly 0]

Everyone probably gets better every jump they make, but there is definently a difference between different canopies. The style of flare that is done on a large canopy and a small canopy is different. Some people have a tough time figuring out how to flare a large canopy and a much easier time doing a two-stage flare with a canopy that is a little more high-performance (~1.0 loading).

Last year I jumped a 290 student canopy (was doing a Mr. Bill) and the landing sucked...I barely stood it up. I definently was one of the people who had a difficult time landing a single-stage flaring canopy.

To each their own...

[Ron 7]

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First off, if I've come off as over-confident in a sport which is dangerous, then that is
my mistake and something I must learn to deal with

Cool no problem....I have been told I am very confident...(OK they said cocky as hell)...Oh, well Im over it.

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Do I know everything there is to know about this sport? Hell no. I am constantly going
through new experiences (one of the things I really like about).

I agree..Its why I still jump...I never said you knew it all.

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Can you honestly say
that you know everything about this sport?

Oh good god no....If I even thought I knew it all I'd quit. I always learn new things....And as soon as I think I'm a god....I do a Freefly jump and realize I still suck, or watch an Airspeed tape.

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But to get back to your question of "why are you insulting me", you must also
understand that sometimes some of the people we encounter in life bring out the worst
in us. And this is not the first time we've locked horns.

OK, but this is the first time I EVER said ANYTHING about your EXP.....

Because experience is something you don't have in SKYDIVING...which is unlike any other thing you have done. Flying is close, but not really.

Why is it I can avoid a personal attack on you?

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I do not disagree with you that
new skydivers shouldn't downsize too rapidly.

Good....But then why did you jump my case? I have done what I wrote, and I never blame the canopy....What would you say if I bounced a Cessna 150 all over the runway, and then said. "My Bonanza lands so much better"?

I would tell the guy its the pilot, not the plane.

Quote

But people will never get better if they
aren't allowed to take certain risks and learn from their mistakes, just as long as those
risks aren't above their skill levels.

True...but how do you define what risks are OK? Me, I use almost 10 years worth of seeing people get hurt in SKYDIVING. Almost everyone of them asks. "Why didn't you tell me it was a bad idea?"...To which I respond "I did, you didn't listen". I don't say that to rub it in...Its fact.

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Oh I too am a licensed private pilot (I was a pilot before I became a skydiver). But
somehow I can see you demeaning this accomplishment as I'm sure in your mind it no
way is equivalent to yours.

Nope, I think its great...But a pilot license does not equate to canopy control...Yes I personally think it helps a lot, but I have seen may pilots smack in...myself included.

I don't hate you....Hell I don't know you. But I do have a problem with people with not much time in sport, and not a lot of jumps saying things as fact.

I don't know everything....But I would venture that I know more about SKYDIVING than you....I would never try to tell you about rock climbing, or tell you how to ski...I don't do that...How would you react to me telling people that they should go ahead and ski a dangerous slope? Or free climb something above their level?....I bet the same way.

I also don't get why people ask questions here...most of us don't know them, and so we should not be giving advice.

And most people on here have WAY more posts than jumps, and maybe should not be giving advice.

Oh well,
Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skybytch 259]

Y'know what's really funny about 100 jump wonders? If they're lucky, eventually they begin to realize just how little they really know. That realization usually comes about the time they see some other new overconfident, cocky 100 jump wonder spouting off and think "damn, doesn't that guy realize how stupid he's making himself look?"

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But to get back to your question of "why are you insulting me", you must also understand that sometimes some of the people we encounter in life bring out the worst in us.

Then perhaps it would be best to ignore the posts from those who "bring out the worst" in you.

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But people will never get better if they aren't allowed to take certain risks and learn from their mistakes, just as long as those risks aren't above their skill levels.

And who is going to determine if those risks are or are not above said newbie's skill levels? The newbie? Yeah, that's a good idea.

Quote

Oh I too am a licensed private pilot (I was a pilot before I became a skydiver).

So? Many jumpers were pilots before they started skydiving. Sorry to say, that ticket doesn't make you special, smarter, better or invulnerable to fucking up. Ask Pete about that last one.

[billvon 2,465]

>I went from a 270 to a 195 and did some good landings (~5). My
> instructors then put me on a 170, which is approaching 1:1 for me. I
> blew my landings.

That's too bad; it sounds like you were just starting to understand landings under the 195. That kind of loading is a good loading to learn how to flare, turn low, deal with stalls etc. Any chance you could get it back for a while, while you learn that stuff?

[quade 3]

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Speed equals lift

In roughly the same way that peanut butter equals sandwich, which is to say, that it's only part of the equation. Without taking into account a few other factors all you have is goo on your hands.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Ron 7]

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In roughly the same way that peanut butter equals sandwich, which is to say, that it's
only part of the equation. Without taking into account a few other factors all you have
is goo on your hands.

Oh I am so stealing this saying to use.....

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[quade 3]

Properly accredited I hope.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,465]

>But once you start flying a canopy which has some forward speed and
> a flare to arrest the vertical decent, your landings will become much
> better.

This type of thinking has contributed to a lot of injuries and deaths in this sport. A good canopy pilot can fly any sort of canopy pretty well. A poor pilot cannot, and will have problems even with larger canopies. Saying that the poorer pilots should transition to smaller canopies quickly is very bad advice. Stick with the big canopy until you _can_ land it, then transition to a smaller canopy that requires more skill to land well. Then stick with _that_ one until you can fly it well, and so on.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Saying that the poorer pilots should transition to smaller canopies quickly is very bad advice.

I never said anything in this thread about transitioning to a smaller canopy (though I was guilty of talking about that awful word ... speed). To me having a canopy which actually flares arresting the vertical descent before continuing the flare to bleed off of the forward speed is paramount to learning how to make good and yes safe landings. From my experience (yes I agree I don't have very much experienced compared to many others), the student canopies I was first introduced to were old F-111 types with thousands of jumps and flared like crap. As soon as I transitioned to a canopy which could be flared (it didn't have to be smaller, it just had more life to it), my landings got better.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[listo 0]

sad thing is that Quade's saying would probably go over the person's head you were using it on if they believed that speed equals lift

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[billvon 2,465]

>the student canopies I was first introduced to were old F-111 types
>with thousands of jumps and flared like crap. As soon as I
> transitioned to a canopy which could be flared (it didn't have to be
> smaller, it just had more life to it), my landings got better.

That I would agree with - better maintained and cared for gear is easier both to land and learn on. Note that that does NOT mean that the canopy is faster; indeed, ragged out canopies actually have a faster airspeed than new ones since their forward speed is the same but they descend more quickly. Also note that even ZP canopies can fly like crap if they get out of trim, which they do if they have spectra lines and are poorly maintained.

The reason I was replying is that the statement "But once you start flying a canopy which has some forward speed . . landings will become much better" could easily be interpreted to mean that as soon as you get a higher performance canopy your landings will somehow improve. That's the dangerous angle.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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The reason I was replying is that the statement "But once you start flying a canopy which has some forward speed . . landings will become much better" could easily be interpreted to mean that as soon as you get a higher performance canopy your landings will somehow improve. That's the dangerous angle.

No arguement here and point taken.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over