Minimizing my risk of a low turn

[billvon 2,421]

>Bill, wouldn't smacking into a tree trunk in full flight -- downwind,
>even -- hurt you pretty bad?

It would if you could reach it, but most trees don't have a 20' by 20' hole that goes all the way to the trunk. What usually happens is that you start to snag well before you hit the trunk, and you end up hanging from the bigger branches. Hitting a big branch can indeed hurt, but at least it will support your weight (if you can grab it) and they still give a lot more than the ground does.

[riggerrob 558]

The key to dying in bed - vs. dying during a hook turn - is pulling your head out of your ass and getting your head out in front of your canopy.

Do like we tell young pilots: never let your airplane get anyplace your mind has not been 5 minutes earlier.

[porter1 0]

I cant speak for everone and dont. I love the ride. I pull around 4.5 and just enjoy the float. I have time to get back to the DZ and who cares if I dont. If I look between my toes and Im headed into the wind with no forward movement then I best look for a place to land off zone. (provided your down wind of it.) I dont have to think twice after that and Im not going to second guess it. 4K is plent of time to pick a spot free of trees too. you wont worry about low turns because you are ready for it by then. Most off zone landings seem to be on calmer days so the chute wont be dragging you back as you walk. One of our jumpers landed off zone at a farm. The elderly lady of the farm let him use the phone and even made him food while he waited for us to come get him. He made a new friend and one less "farmer McNasty" to think of. If someone at your DZ gives you guff about landing off zone just nod and move on. They arent in control of your life. You have more control than they do and winds are different everywhere so they have no idea what you were dealing with in your erea.
Safe landing and you can jump again.

[PhillyKev 0]

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I have practised Flat turns - and I meant (and the experienced advice meant) hook turns (low but not too low). Reason being that I could get into a "tight" landing area situation and a quick hook turn might be the best option. If I do not practise and have not tried the feeling and "visual" experience of a hook turn landing, I might be in real trouble if the situation arises. Note that I was talking of a careful and safe training program. General rule still applies for me that I do not do hook turns, but I want to be able to manage a situation where I have to do one.

Why would anyone do a low hook turn intentionally? There's no reason to practice a maneuver that has a high possibility of killing or maiming you. Practicing front riser landings with proper altitude is one thing, but practicing low hooks? Low hook turns are the thing to avoid at all costs, that's what kills...no reason to practice it.

If you're too low to do a flat turn to avoid an obstacle, then you're sure as hell too low to hook it.

[billvon 2,421]

>Why would anyone do a low hook turn intentionally?

Same reason you go unstable intentionally, or jump in water under a parachute intentionally, or learn CRW. So you can prepare yourself for going unstable, landing in water, or having a dual deployment. Are all those things dangerous? Yes. Can they be done reasonably safely? Yes. Same as low turns.

>Low hook turns are the thing to avoid at all costs, that's what
> kills...no reason to practice it.

I would disagree there. Getting to the point where you can do a front riser 45-90 turn to landing can make you a safer skydiver - provided you do it carefully, gradually and with help. I think that one reason people often get hurt turning low is that they have a rule "avoid low turns at all costs!" then find they need to turn low one day to avoid a collision. If, at that point, you have experience turning your canopy close to the ground, you have a better chance at survival.

[PhillyKev 0]

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I would disagree there. Getting to the point where you can do a front riser 45-90 turn to landing can make you a safer skydiver - provided you do it carefully, gradually and with help. I think that one reason people often get hurt turning low is that they have a rule "avoid low turns at all costs!" then find they need to turn low one day to avoid a collision. If, at that point, you have experience turning your canopy close to the ground, you have a better chance at survival.

Bill...you are definitely the guy I'd go to for advice on this type of stuff, but I think we're miscommunicating here.

Practice turns low to the ground = GOOD (flat turns)

Practice riser turns low to the ground = GOOD (provided you are high enough to complete the turn before you impact the ground)

Practice low hook turns = BAD

When someone says they want to practice low hook turns, I'm assuming they mean a toggle hook, and when they say low, I'm assuming they mean lower than what is prudent. If that's not what he meant, my mistake.


Question: When would you ever be in a situation where you did not have sufficient altitude to perform a flat turn, but do have sufficient altitude to hook it??

[mikkey 0]

Billvon explained well what I was on about. Re-read my posts above - I think you mis-understood.

1) I do not do any radical turns under 1000 feet as a matter of policy.
2) I do a lot of planning and looking in order to land safely.
3) I have practised flat turns 45 -90 degrees low in order to be able to avoid obstacles safely during landing phase and land cross wind.
4) After discussions with somebody with many thousands of jumps and 30 years in the sport, I decided to practise being able to do a radical turn (hook) during the landing phase and learn it in a careful manner as decribed in above post.. When I say "low" I meant not "too low" i.e. practising to be able to stay out of the "corner" and understanding the sensation and visual experince of a quick turn at lower altitude (this is the important part - the guy pointed out that some people would "freak out" if they have to do a quick turn and have not experienced the "ground rush" in a controlled environment - this can lead to deadly mistakes). This will make it more safe if I need to do it (and I do NOT normally want to make a hook prior to landing - this is for emergency only).
5) Whilst flat turns are my first choice for "avoidance" low, there are situations where you would need a quick "hook" turn and the flat rurn is not an option. I want to be able to do one durring landing phase if need be (and know how high I need to be to be able to use the option) - and I want to know what the "visual" ground rush experience is so I do not freak out and make a deadly mistake.

Hope this explains it better.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[PhillyKev 0]

Gotcha...I read the response to you that only quoted the part about doing low hook turns, but quoted your entire paragraph in my response. Didn't read the whole thing. My mistake.

[billvon 2,421]

>When someone says they want to practice low hook turns, I'm
> assuming they mean a toggle hook, and when they say low, I'm
> assuming they mean lower than what is prudent. If that's not what
> he meant, my mistake.

OK, I thought he meant low turns of all sorts including front riser approaches. I would agree that significant toggle hook turns are about the worst way to practice manuevering close to the ground.

[Newbie 0]

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What else, guys?

i would also add not to be afraid to take a down winder. I did a few months ago and man, you come in a lot faster than you do normally (obviously) and it was a little scary realising i was going to have to run this thing out (although i have since read not to do that, and to slide it in, to minimize the risk of going head over heels), but it was no way as scary as realising i was going to land off and would have had to make a low turn to get into wind.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[skymedic 0]

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i would also add not to be afraid to take a down winder. I did a few months ago and man, you come in a lot faster than you do normally (obviously) and it was a little scary realising i was going to have to run this thing out (although i have since read not to do that, and to slide it in, to minimize the risk of going head over heels), but it was no way as scary as realising i was going to land off and would have had to make a low turn to get into wind

I agree, the first time I did a downwinder it was not on purpose...but when I realised I was going to land down wind I just relaxed and flew the canopy till it stoped flying. this is probably one of the best things I have learned on these boards...is dont stop flying the canopy till it's done flying...thanks to billvon for that bit of advice...

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....