Tandem Masters - Leg lock or not to leg lock?

[Bazza 0]

This thread or post is mostly for tandem masters.
I will start out by recognizing that every drop zone has their own specific methods of doing tandems, particularly the exit. Depending on aircraft and dz preference. Some may have the passenger with arms crossed for some duration with no mwention of leg positioning. Some may have the passenger arch right off the plane as best they can.
It is the period from the exit and before the drogue is tosssed that I would like to focus.
As much as we would prefer, exits do not always go perfectly. The student often has legs that flop about like a rag doll. Now considering the ideal position to deploy the drogue is a stable belly to earth attitude. If this is not there it is advisable to get to that position (or time the drogue deployment accordingly, right?). If the passenger's legs are in a less than perfect position do attempting leg locks help greatly? Before answering, remember that when the tandem master brings the legs forward and around the passenger's (this can be difficult if the passenger's legs are in bent in front) the flying dynamic of the arch is compromised.
I would be willing to hear others' opinions on 'whether to leg lock or not' and individuals' experiences along these lines.
And for the record, yes, I am a tandem master.
Bazza

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I have had to leg-lock a couple of people who were fully piked forward in the "cat thrown off the roof" mode. This, only because the passenger had a lot of surface area (read: was much taller than me) and I wasn't interested in getting in a side spin on the "bad" side. Those couple of instances were early in my tandem career. Nowadays, I will just continue to freefall and gain speed to the point that a tiny little power move will get me face down to throw the drogue. Since then, I have only leg-locked one really big guy, but that was under drogue. He "looked" straight under me, but we had a spin to the right that I was having a hard time stopping. Turns out he had one knee down, so the leg-lock, plus me screaming "relax" in his ear got him in check. It's all good.

Chuck
Vector 2, Sigma, Eclipse

[iowa 0]

If they don't arch when they're supposed to or after I yell in thier ear "arch" and we are'nt belly to earth then I hook 'em hard (unless they're 50+ years old). If they're young and/or reasonably fit it dosn't hurt them a bit. It always has turned us face down with just a bit of muscle input the way you want go. If thier legs are out and we're belly to earth I won't hook 'em until after the drouge is out , and then only if they won't arch when I yell them to.

You're right in that all exits don't go as well as we would like. That's where patience comes in, work them as best you can and trust that you can make them arch and then get stable before throwing the drogue. Timing it should be a last ditch effort if you can't get stable. Never give up!

Keith

''Always do sober what you said you would do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.'' - Ernest Hemingway

[Hooknswoop 19]

Ditto what SkyMonkeyOne Said.

Hook

Same tandem ratings as the Monkey

[riggerrob 561]

I used a leg lock to recover from my first - and thank god only side spin - but since then have tried to refine my exit technique to the point where I rarely get unstable.
Nowadays I prefer to extend my arms and legs as far as they will go and fly my own body out of any instability. I find it easier to ignore whatever foolishness the student is doing because even when I jammed my heels into the tops of their knees so hard that I leave bruises, they rarely improve their leg position enough to help.
Furthermore, I am not convinced that being six feet all gives me a significant advantage over shorter tandem instructors. Extra height may instill confidence, but it only makes a minor difference in freefall. In the end it is a question of technique.
The bottom line is: fly your own body.

[Tonto 1]

I don't leg lock. They fly themselves, and do what they do. I fly me. In trying to catch legs you can never see, you can be assured both body positions are poor.

I only have 700 tandems though, so I'm sure there are loads of more qualified opinions out there.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[tombuch 0]

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If the passenger's legs are in a less than perfect position do attempting leg locks help greatly?

When I started doing tandem jumps, yes, I often did the leg lock, and I was especially aggressive if the exit was getting ugly. Another tandem instructor saw one of my videos and strongly encouraged me to "fly" the full exit. That's what I have done since. It's far easier, takes less energy, and is far, far, far more effective in controlling an unstable student.

The only time I have had to physically manipulate a student on exit was with a small women, and later a small man, who started to roll me into what I thought was a side spin. In both cases the side straps couldn't effectively hold our hips in alignment because of size differences, and I felt the student shift to the side as we rolled. A simple push on the student hips with my hand, coupled with solid flying, got us stable.

I've made about 4,500 jumps, 1,000 tandems, and have earned the tandem rating on the Strong, Vector, and Racer rigs.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Sebazz1 2]

I will occasionaly use the leg lock technique for asthetic value only. I just fly the exit before tossing the drogue by becoming the "big X"... Just get your arms and legs out real big.

[riggerrob 561]

"big X" works far better than leg locking.

Rob Warner
2,300 jumps on Strong, Vector and Racer tandems.

[GroundZero 0]

i've always reminded less experienced tandem people: "When you think of reaching in, it's time to reach out further".



Chris

[weavermc 0]

I agree with the others here--i have only 200 tandems but mentors taught me early to fly big and fly my own body... so far i've only had to 'manhandle' two or three studens so I'm a big believer in the "X"

Weaves

[jimjumper 25]

I rarely leg lock, but I had a student who was deliberately trying to get into a pike position. I leg locked him and grabbed his wrists to stop him. I asked him, after we opened, (not very politely I must say) what he had been doing and he told me "that he wanted to go head down real fast" because he saw it in a James Bond movie the week before. Sometimes you just don't know what a passenger will do!

[betzilla 56]

My tandem examiner got us in a sidespin on one of my certification jumps. I tried and tried to leg-lock him, but it made the spin faster. He saw an opportunity to chuck the drogue and took it (*phew*). I was AMAZED at how fast we got to spinning!
He told me later (under canopy) that it's probably better to match the student's de arched position, then do a half back-loop to get belly down.

unfortunately, I broke my leg with student number 13 (she fell on me, but she was unhurt), two jumps short of my rating . I'll finish it up this summer, if I ever get my nerve back.

[jeremyneas 0]

Even at DZ's that have fast turn around times, it is easy to let your student know that if he doesn't arch hard enough off the plane they haven't "fucked" up the skydive.

Let them know on the ground or in the plane that if they feel that tap tap tapping on their leg in freefall to just remember the arch.

In freefall when the student goes fetal, just reach down with your hand and give um a quick tap on the leg, and I have had 100% success rate with fixed arches this way. The initial exit can produce the willies but the tap zaps them back to reality, the survival part of the brain can always be counted on (even with the dimmist students).

Don't dearch, arch hard, and allow your student with help of the wind to bring it home.

Good ground instruction is always key, but sometimes time doesn't permit what we always want.

Jeremy Neas
Sigma, Vector 2, Eclipse, Strong...and a partridge in a pear tree...

[Hooknswoop 19]

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it is easy to let your student know that if he doesn't arch hard

I never tell a student "arch hard". They picture a "hard arch" requiring a lot of muscle and force. I want them more relaxed. The more tense they are the more they de-arch. I haven't had a problem getting stable prior to tossing the drogue, reqardless of the student's body position.

I tell them they 'should' (I changed 'must' to 'should' to try and help them relax) remember 3 things; 1) 'When we leave the airplane, arch for me, what I mean by that is, hips foward (demonstrate), chin up.' 2) 'Don't grab me (demonstrate by grabbing one wrist with my other hand), think about it, if you are hanging onto me, who is gonna pull?' 3) 'This is problably the most important, lift your legs for landing (demonstrate with one leg), kness slightly bent, toes pointed, lean back and squash me. Your job is to not touch the ground. If you knock the wind out of me, you did it right.'

Bonus briefing material, goggles, making sure they seal around the bridge of their nose, and how to adjust the leg straps immediately after the parachute opens.

Edit: I forgot, I tell them to 'hook' their thumbs under their harness for exit, release when I tap them. I've found that having them cross their arms tends to lead to a fetal position and hooking their thumbs opens them up. I don't have them do anything for pull time, just hold what they have.

Hook

[JohnnyD 0]

>remember 3 things

This is great advice! How much is a tandem student going to remember anyway? I try to really focus them on those three things as well. I add arm, head and hands into the exit. I don't tell students not to grab me. I have had a lot of success telling the student to give me or the camera a thumbs up after the initial tap (gives them something to do with their hands other than grab onto me). I actually hammer on the landing the least, as I can talk to them under canopy.

[chutingstar 1]

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The bottom line is: fly your own body.

Ditto.

Take control of the skydive in the door, on exit and in the skydive with your own body and skydiving skills. Wear an appropriate jumpsuit with drag. Present to the relative wind on exit, throw the drogue and enjoy the skydive.

I have found tandems to be much easier, more fun and enjoyable when I stopped worrying or fixing their body position and just flying myself.

Teach the student the basics of the hip forward arch and remind them by talking in their ear, if needed, in freefall. If they don't have a good arch, you can still fly it.

Just my thoughts...

Mike

ChutingStar.com

[jumprunner 0]

Quote

I rarely leg lock, but I had a student who was deliberately trying to get into a pike position. I leg locked him and grabbed his wrists to stop him. I asked him, after we opened, (not very politely I must say) what he had been doing and he told me "that he wanted to go head down real fast" because he saw it in a James Bond movie the week before. Sometimes you just don't know what a passenger will do!

Thats why TMs make the big bucks, the shit you have to put up with with some people. My first jump I was suffeciently nervous enough to do exaxtly what I was told, and made it easy on the TM. But I still had to pay for what shit others pull.

[Bunyip 0]

I only leg lock if everything is in a strong spin after the drogue is out ... then I only do it for a couple of seconds to put the students legs in place ... and only if I have to. Just getting big is usually the best remedy.