Student AFF - Spinning problem

[aragao 0]

Hi,
I am very disappointed with my student performance.

Let me talk about my story, but, at first, I´d like to sorry about may bad english.

I started my course on ASL and I had 16 jumps.
Sometimes I had a spinning problem. Sometimes I get stopped on spinning using curve principles, but, sometimes, the spinning was so hard that I can´t stop it. So, I decided to go to AFF.

I started my AFF on level 3:
-Level 3: good
-Level 4: old spinning problem
-Level 4: again: good
-Level 5: good
-Level 6: good
-Level 7: old spinning problem
-Level 7: again old spinning problem

I don´t know what´s happening. My spinning is so hard that I can´t stop it.
I Can´t understand what is happenning because I am relaxed and, like my JM said, my body is simetric.
My JM told me that had students with this problem: body apparently relaxed e simetric, good box position and the spinning just happen without reason.

If I have spinning e can get stopped, no problem. But scare me when I can´t stop it. My JM have to grip, so that I can open my parachute. Anybody can give any suggestion on this point??

On the next weekend I will jump again. My JM said me that I don´t need to think about 7 level anymore. I will jump with he, relax, relax, relax and I decide what maneveur I want to do. When I am good on this kind of jump, I will be free for solo.

Like student I am very, very frustated. On ASL+AFF I have 25 jumps and I am not ready for solo yet. I am a stupid student or this kind of sport is not for me?? . I love skydiving and I don´t pretend to stop it.
I will apreciate if anyone have any suggestion for this bad student.

Thanks

[PhreeZone 15]

Your not a bad student at all. I'd advise getting video of the jump and seeing if that shows anything that your JM might be missing. Its amazing what can be overlooked in the excitement of freefall.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[aragao 0]

Hi,
Thanks for your reply.
Really it´s a good advice.
But because money problems, I have to decide between 2 jumps per month or one jump with video

[PhreeZone 15]

1 with video might solve your problem. Since its taken you so many jumps to get this far in your student progress I'd see if you could'nt work out a bit of a discount with the DZ.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Cajones 0]

I can understand you are strapped for money. Student jumps are expensive.

I've seen little time in a wind tunnel fix this sort of problem very fast.

It may look a little expensive for tunnel time (there are threads that talk about the costs of tunnel time - do a search), but it may save you money in the long run.

The laws of physics are strictly enforced.

[mustard 0]

Quote

Like student I am very, very frustated. On ASL+AFF I have 25 jumps and I am not ready for solo yet. I am a stupid student or this kind of sport is not for me?? I love skydiving and I don´t pretend to stop it. I will apreciate if anyone have any suggestion for this bad student.

First of all, you are *not* a bad student. I will tell you a story: a few years ago I had a student who had a spinning problem, worse than yours. He could keep from spinning, like you, unless he did a solo exit. then right on exit he would start to spin and spin until he pulled. He did this on Level 6 maybe 7-8 times, each time it was the same. I had not jumped with him but now it's my turn to see if I can help, so we talked for a long time. He really wanted to stop spinning, but he was expecting it, and he knew he could pull while in a spin, which he did for several jumps in a row.

I talked with him and told him about an old trick that used to be taught about how to get out of a spin: go into a track. Forcing your body into a tracking position should stop any and all asymmetries. Well, we went out of the airplane as usual. He went into a spin, and pulled. When we got onto the ground, I asked him why he didn't try to track out of it, and he told me that he didn't even try, once the spin started, he went back to what he knew would stop it: pulling. So I told him we would go back up and repeat it, and he would try to track out of it.

I can still see him in my mind leaving the airplane: as usual, he started to spin. I saw him bring his arms back, trying to stop the spin, but it was a struggle. Then his legs came out, and the spin stopped just like magic! He never has spun again, and how he is a coach with lots of jumps.

This is a technique you could try, if your JMs think it might work. Frankly, it surprised me how well it worked. And psychologically, if you *think* you are going to spin and you don't know any way to stop it, you will spin. So you need a tool, maybe this will work for you. Talk with your JMs and show them this post. I can also be contacted if they want to talk to me about it.

And good luck! This person had 23 jumps, only AFF, before he graduated to solo jumps. You can do it too.

***
DJan

[wmw999 2,148]

PM'd you. And Mustard has good advice!

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[aragao 0]

At first, I would like to thanks everybody for yours goods advices.

Mustard, very, very, thanks. You touched on a interesting point. Of course a video will help me to fix my problem, but on exit I am too scared, because I know that I will spin, but I don´t know how can I stop it. If I know that I can stop I am sure that I will make a good jump.

This saturday I will talk to my JM and I will try to stop my spin with your suggestion. Now I am more confident to the next jump.

Another thing-> to tracking on spinning what´s is the best order: first spread out the arms and after the legs or first spread out the legs and after the arms???

Very Thanks,
Aragao

[Push 0]

I'm having a similar problem, though I'm orbiting, not spinning. One of my legs is lazy. It's a very small asymetry and difficult to spot, even for the multi-thousand jump coaches, but over a moderately long delay it can accumulate to a nice little spin. What I did is to learn to counter it and fast, so the turn doesn't become a spin, and I mean counter as soon as you see that horizon move. This will give you a semblance of stability and boost your confidence, which is very important. After that, ground drills. At least, that's what seems to be helping me. Good luck, it's worth it.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[fudd 0]

Sounds like mustard had a good advice. It will be very hard to spinn while in a track.

Anyway, I had simular problems on level 3 in my aff. I couldn't hold my heading and started to turn/spin. Even on video it wasn't possible to see excatly what caused the spin.
Then I change my heavy boots with sneakers.
Then I felt the wind on my legs/feet and felt I could steer. Feeling in controll made my much more relaxed to and never had any problems since.

Keep on jumping, and suddenly it will all feel so natural. Like riding a bike

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[billvon 2,434]

Some good suggestions. Here are a few others:

When trying to stop the spin, make sure you are looking in the direction you want your _body_ to go, not the direction you are spinning (which is more natural to do.) Also, make sure you're looking over your hand, not under it - that will help keep your arms in the right position to stop the turn.

Toe taps can help verify that your legs are in the right position.

Spins can be caused by too much tension, so relaxing everything (except your lower legs, you have to keep them out) can help.

If all else fails learn leg turns - most spin problems I've seen have been due to legs doing the wrong thing. To practice these get on a creeper and put your feet on a couch. While pressing your feet against the couch, use them to turn yourself left and right. Exactly the same motion works in freefall to turn your body.

Of course talk to your JM before the jump, and don't try anything without talking it over with him first. (<- standard disclaimer)

[mustard 0]

Quote

Of course a video will help me to fix my problem, but on exit I am too scared, because I know that I will spin, but I don´t know how can I stop it. If I know that I can stop I am sure that I will make a good jump.

So you know you will make a good jump if you are not afraid you will spin? I am sure, then, that you need to have what I call a "magic feather" -- something you can do in case the spin starts again. I am assuming already that you are doing what billvon has suggested: looking in the direction you want to go, over your arm, rather than looking in the direction you are spinning.

Another thing: if I had to guess, I would bet that you are rather tall and not very heavy -- because the more arms and legs you have and the less body mass, the more that the tiniest little asymmetry will cause you to turn when you don't mean to.

I suspect your legs because they are bigger than your arms, so if the spin begins, stick your legs out like you were getting ready to track, and see if it stops. Then, if it does, you know it's your legs. If it doesn't stop, then bring your arms back like you were going to start to track.

Once a spin starts and you don't want to spin, it's really hard to relax everything, but that's just what you need to do. One person mentioned feeling the wind on his legs with light shoes made the difference for him. You will find out what you need, and once you have found your "magic feather" you will never have a problem again with turning.

The body just naturally wants to follow your eyes if you are relaxed and having fun. You don't even think about how to get from here to there, you just do it. That is what awaits you! I look forward to hearing what happens next weekend!

***
DJan

[aragao 0]

Good advices, Mustard and Billvon. Now I am more confident. Until yestarday I was so scared

I think that I have no problem with my height and weigth: 1,73m and 72kg.

Like Mustard said, I have to find my "magic feather", so I will start with Billvon and Mustard´s advices.

Thaks all
CHeers,
Aragao

[aragao 0]

[If all else fails learn leg turns - most spin problems I've seen have been due to legs doing the wrong thing. To practice these get on a creeper and put your feet on a couch. While pressing your feet against the couch, use them to turn yourself left and right. Exactly the same motion works in freefall to turn your body. ]

Billvon,
Do you know any site where I can learn leg turns??
Thanks,
Aragao

[wmw999 2,148]

para a mesma resposta em portugues, pode olhar nas mensagens.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[aragao 0]

Olá wendy, tudo bem??
Uma curiosidade: Voce é brasileira ou apenas fala portugues??
Eu nao entendi sua mensagem: "para a mesma resposta em portugues, pode olhar nas mensagens." Existe algum tradutor ou coisa parecida??

Abracos,
Aragao

[wmw999 2,148]

Sou americana, mas passei 8 anos no Brasil. Na parte em cima da pagina, tem duas linhas de selecoes do site (Home News Calendar ...).
A segunda linha tem Messages, e se tem letras vermelhas em frente, quer dizer que tem mensagens para voce.

Olha o jpeg que inclui para ver o que quero dizer, e desculpa-me se falei errado.

Wendy W.

(note for the non-Portuguese-speaking -- I PM'd him)

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[CrazyIvan 0]

Quote

(note for the non-Portuguese-speaking -- I PM'd him)

The Spanish speaking members can understand Portuguese

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.

[Hooknswoop 19]

This may take a bit, so bear with. It is the journey, not the destination that counts, right?

My 'Zen' speech

OK, imagine a tree (work with me here, this is going somewhere), there are leaves in the tree. A leaf falls out of the tree. If it is perfectly symmetrical, it will fall straight down, without any turns. If you pick up the leaf and bend the edge and drop it, it will spin as it falls.

How does this help you? Good question. In free-fall, you have to make a turn happen. If you simply lay there, with you hips pushed forward a bit and relax, then you don't turn. You can make a turn happen a bunch of different ways, but they all have one thing in common. They all change the airflow around your body from symmetrical to asymmetrical, they all bend the corner of the leaf.

The 'neutral' body position, as I teach it for initial free-falls:

Hips forward.
Chin up, looking towards the horizon.
Legs out to almost a 45-degree angle, toes pointed so that the soles of the feet are parallel with the ceiling.
Elbows level with or below the shoulders, forearms level with the ground or wrists slightly below elbows.
Relax and breathe. The only tension should come from pushing your hips forward and your legs out, everything else should be fairly relaxed.

Pick out a point on the horizon, actually identify what it is you are looking at. Most uncontrolled turns/spins I have dealt with were caused by either tension of the student was trying to 'balance' or working to hold a heading. Holding a heading shouldn't be work. Don't do anything and relax and you won't turn. You have to press down on the air to turn.

Hook

[skr 1]

I agree with Mustard except I would say to
delta out of a spin instead of track.

"Track" is a very stiff, reverse arch kind of
position, whereas "delta" is a relaxed, pelvis
and chest down, arms and legs swept back
kind of position.

Many people have used this trick over the
years. Be sure and talk to your jumpmasters
about this before you do it. You don't want to
scare them by suddenly diving away :-) :-)


Once you have a way out of the spin you will
be more relaxed and probably won't go into a
spin in the first place.

Skr

[sducoach 0]

Look out Djan.......................

I read a "family fight" in the making!!

blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[aragao 0]

Hi ,
What´s the difference between
DELTA and TRACK???

Thanks,
Aragao

[Tonto 1]

Yeah... but a lot harder to catch a tracking student than a spinner. If you're turning, you're asymetrical. Get symetrical. It's that simple.

I understand that by tracking you are increasing the radius of gyration and so the spin will momentarily slow, but I've seen lots of jumps with newbies who don't track straight.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[BBKid 0]

My BPA starter magazine (free after first jump) had a story from the student of the year, and he had the same spinning problem as you.

If I remember right, although instructors thought he was relaxed and symmetrical, detailed video showed one leg was a little low. They cured this with time on creepers and in suspended harness (why?), and also working underwater to teach him about relaxation. He thought he was relaxed, but the difference pressure can make was pointed out by a friend timing how long he could hold his breath underwater, then repeating the process, except with a hand placed lightly on his head. The perceived pressure of someone 'holding him down' led to him coming up for breath 20 seconds sooner than when he was solo. Just something to think about.

Nick
---------------------------
"I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!"

[mustard 0]

Quote

What´s the difference between
DELTA and TRACK???

Well, they *look* pretty much the same, except that a "track" is more of the same thing. Skr is right, technically I meant a "delta" and not a "track." He explains the difference in his post.

Skratch is my husband, and when I came home last night we discussed your spinning problem, and he was concerned that I might have confused you. So hopefully this does not confuse you even more!

Skratch and I have had many conversations about how students are taught, and when I teach a student how to "track" I am actually teaching them how to "delta," not track. Tracking is an advanced delta, so students hardly ever track until they have many more jumps.

I do remember, however, once having a student who *tracked* away from me on a Level VII. I could hardly believe my eyes. When we got down to the ground I asked him how did he know how to track so well? He had been listening to people talk at the DZ, and had asked a friend of his how to do it. Well, believe me I was shocked! He tracked as well as any jumper with thousands of jumps.

As an instructor, I don't want my student to track better than *me*!!

***
DJan