chuteless 1 #1 June 19, 2003 I am quite astonished that so many jumpers open so high. For what seemed like centuries, the BSR stated that the chute should be opened at 2000 feet, and later 1800 feet if you held a "D" licence. One thing a jumper should be very aware of is, if you open high, dont think that will give you extra time to "clear" the malfunction. Because you have a ball of garbage trailing behind you, you are not slowing down. Your time in which to react is low, so if you expeience a malfunction after activating at 3000 or higher, don't fool around with it. Chop the thing, and use your reserve. I know of one person who pulled at 2500, had a mal, and was seen trying to separate the lines to get the chute to open. After doing this for brief seconds (not even 1 minute) they decided to cutaway as they disappeared behind the treetops. My last mal/cutaway was in July 1990. I quickly realized I had a problem, and after a quick check, the lines were tangled around my arm. A hundred things flashed before my mind, and I even checked to see what kind of a field I would be killed in. I activated the reserve, and with a couple of swings, on the ground. In freefall, things happen fast....and you think they are taking place much slower. If your main hickups...get rid of it. don't waste time...and live to make another jump. Good luck all. Bill Cole D-41 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dterrick 0 #2 June 19, 2003 Intersting point of view, Bill. The CSPA doctrine (I know, your favorite people) still teaches the ('your'?) theory... "there square and steerable... if not, initiate reserve procedures. " Activation altitudes for JM jumps are sufficiently higher enough to allow some margin of error while one engrains this theory in their mind. Somewhere along the progression to 'master parachutists', though, many of us get pulled into the thought that the "minimum activation altitude" is THE activation altitude -regardless of the chute you fly. Also not necessarily a good thing. I can't say that I understand people who say they 'open high for safety' unless we're talking about canopy familiarization flights (ie: new gear) - when I open high it's becasue I want to play under canopy ... something I like as much as freefall. A phrase I'll always remember and believe in is "don't spend the rest of your life clearing that malfunction" and I think that about says it all. I wanna get to be an old skydiver Dave PS: the extra altitude on student progression saved me from a 2 out when i had a p/c in tow and cleared it on 'check thousand'. I think that was the LAST time that I counted all the way to 5 because a high speed mal at 2200 doesn't leave a lot of leftover altitude or time to clear anything. Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #3 June 19, 2003 QuoteOne thing a jumper should be very aware of is, if you open high, dont think that will give you extra time to "clear" the malfunction. Thats just rigth what you get.More time to respond proberly to a malfunktion.That it dont change the fact that you´ll need to cut i agree but it makes your safe margen abit higher instead of having a close call each time you have a mal(thinking of objects/ground). Stay safe Stefan Faber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #4 June 19, 2003 The reason I dump higher is because I can. I do most of my jumps from 14,500. There is no reason for me to dump at 2000, when my canopy could, on occasion, take 1000 feet to open. The canopies nowadays are smaller and when you have a spinning mal, altitude is your friend. These little canopies spin faster and lose altitude faster than the canopies from the "old days". Just my 2 cents. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #5 June 19, 2003 I dont disagree with either of you, but although you get a "bit" more time, someone might get the idea you get a lot more. As you know, things happen fast during a mal...and the ground comes up real fast> i just want jumpers not to be overconfident because they have a few hundred feet more....milliseconds in time. I always liked the faster harder openings of a para Commander....and would use it for low openings every time. I dont like the idea of low openings with any square. Bill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,464 #6 June 19, 2003 >I am quite astonished that so many jumpers open so high. I think several things have changed since the original pull altitudes were put in the BSR's. 1. Canopies have gotten more snively; I know many people who would not consider a 1000 foot snivel reason to fix or replace the canopy. 2. Canopies have gotten faster. A fast canopy might only give you 30 seconds to set up for landing if you pull at 2000 feet, and if you add the usual skydiver nonsense of turning off the camera, taking off the booties, killing, pulling down and stowing the slider, and you might be hard pressed to do all that, enter the pattern, and do your desired cool swoop (which has to be initiated at 300 feet.) 3. Canopies are more fun to fly. Combined with 2) above, this means some people want to pull high to have more than 30 seconds to play with their canopy. 4. Canopies malfunction in different ways. Line twist on an older large F111 canopy might mean that, if you landed with it, you'd land out of control but under a good canopy; nowadays it will kill you. Hence a higher altitude to give you a few seconds to try to deal with line twist, decide it's not going to clear, and cut away/open the reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #7 June 19, 2003 [QUOTE]Canopies are more fun to fly.[/QUOTE] For me this is a big reason. I wasnt around 10-20 years ago, but its obvious that the canopies of old were more functional/stoic than the canopies of young. The newer canopies (my generation I guess) are small, fast, and fun to fly. For me flying the canopy is the greatest part of skydiving, I like opening at 4k and getting a nice, fun ride. --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #8 June 19, 2003 hey its also nice to know that if you have a mal and cutaway you'll be under reserve a lot higher than you would if you had pulled at 1.8k. Thats sufficient time to safely and calmly choose an appropriate landing area. I agree just because you open high doesnt give you an excuse to mess around with the canopy. I hope my first mal I deal with calm, cool, and FAST, something I've been trying to train myself for ever since I started. --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #9 June 19, 2003 Off landings are dangerous as well and opening higher helps to avoid them. I'm usually under canopy around 2800' and have had 1 off landing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #10 June 19, 2003 Andy: If you've been syking your mind to handle it that way for awhile, I have no doubt you'll carry it off exactly the way you should. I spent about four months syking myself to leave an aircraft without a rig...and when the time came I never gave it a second thought. Conditioning the mind is important, The main point I am trying to make is because one knows he opened higher than normal, that shouldnt give that person the idea he/she has "lots" of extra time to correct a serious problem. Its important NOT to waste whatever time one has in that situation. cutaway and sort the tangles out later. BILL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #11 June 19, 2003 QuoteI dont disagree with either of you, but although you get a "bit" more time, someone might get the idea you get a lot more. As you know, things happen fast during a mal...and the ground comes up real fast> i just want jumpers not to be overconfident because they have a few hundred feet more....milliseconds in time. I always liked the faster harder openings of a para Commander....and would use it for low openings every time. I dont like the idea of low openings with any square. Bill Chuteless, are you saying we should all deploy lower so we don't think we have more time? It doesnt' make any sense. It's not a complacecy issue, its called survival. I don't like deploying at or below 2000 feet unless I am told to for sepation on big ways. IMO, those of us that deploy higher than the old day jumpers, are just be more cautious than the "old days". JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #12 June 19, 2003 I'm going to try this one more time: Judy, if anyone wishes to open at 3000 or 4000 or 10000, that is their perogative. Personally, I like 2000, but that is me. It seems to be a communications problem here: I am only saying, that although some can handle the old opening altitude of 2000, for those who dont have 1300 jumps like you Judy, I hope they dont feel that because the open at 3000, they have lots of extra time to fool around with a problem. Sure they have extra time, but at the speed they are falling with a malfunction, that speed wont allow them to "solve the problem" and land with their main. I have had about 10 reserve openings for various reasons, and I know there isnt much time to fool around with a serious problem...get the reserve out pronto. Open at 3000 or where ever you want, but if you have a serious problem, treat itas SERIOUS. I'm mainly concerned with people who dont have enough jumps to have conditioned their mind to react quickly and properly...people who think they have all the time in the world to fix things as they rocket to earth. People who have less tha 100 jumps , not 1300 like you do. , Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,464 #13 June 19, 2003 >I hope they dont feel that because the open at 3000, they have >lots of extra time to fool around with a problem. They have over twice the amount of time, if they plan to cut away by 1600 feet, which is USPA's recommendation. That would seem like "lots" to me. It is one reason that students pull higher than experienced jumpers. > I'm mainly concerned with people who dont have enough jumps to >have conditioned their mind to react quickly and properly... Like students. Fortunately they pull by 4000-5000 feet, thus giving them extra time to deal with their potentially slow reactions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #14 June 19, 2003 [QUOTE]Personally, I like 2000, but that is me. [/QUOTE] Out of curiousity, do you jump an elliptical canopy? --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #15 June 19, 2003 I jump a Strato-Cloud. and a 23 ft front mount reserve.Bill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #16 June 19, 2003 do you think your deployment altitude would be any different if you were jumping one of the more newer elliptical canopies? --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #17 June 19, 2003 I've jumped the Manta, but as for the other canopies, I would have to get an opening or twop on them before I would decide what was best for me. I definitely would not use any square for a low opening. ....like 500 ft. That is best on a round P.C> which I can get to explode off my back. However, I sold my three PCs, and doubt I'd ever get to have another one...besides, I dont jump that often now. regards, BILL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #18 June 20, 2003 I guess I consider cutting away and pulling my reserve as part of "dealing with the problem". My Aff training 7 years ago was quite thorough as far as how and how long you deal with a canopy problems. If I remember correctly, back when I first started jumping, alot of the fatalities were due to an inadaquate amount of time they gave themselves to cutaway AND deploy the reserve. As its been said in many threads before, education, education, education. Blue Skies, JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #19 June 20, 2003 Quote I hope they dont feel that because the open at 3000, they have lots of extra time to fool around with a problem The more time the better. The higher you pull, the safer you will be cos you HAVE more time to deal with it.____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #20 June 20, 2003 Good morning Judy. Yes a cutaway and quick pull for the reserve is in fact dealing with the problem of a mal. Unfortunately, students sometimes think, "phits not too bad...maybe if I can shake these lines it will clear" I had a series of photos showing a woman doing this, she disappeared behind the treetops and never got her hand on the reserve ripcord. Two days before it happened, I told another jumper, "remeber the name M.....R.....R....., because she is going to die soon. TWO DAYS. I was called by the police, and I cried for her....she hadnt been taught not o fool with a mal...she hadnt been told get rid of it....so she decided on her own, "Oh, I think I can fix it, "and was seen for the entire fall, shaking the lines apart as if that would help. Student mentality in this matter is NOT the same as a mature jumper who has been taught properly to chop it and get the reserve out quickly, so they will live to untangle the damn lines when they have their feet on solid ground. BILL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,464 #21 June 20, 2003 >Unfortunately, students sometimes think, "phits not too bad...maybe if I can shake these lines it will clear" Hmm. None of my students have ever thought that, as far as I know, because I don't tell them that "if you shake the lines it will clear the mal." They have one procedure for dealing with a parachute that's not open. It might take them longer than an experienced jumper to recognize the problem and find the handles, but I've never talked to a student who, after a cutaway, said "yeah, it took me a while because I figured maybe I should try something new." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #22 June 20, 2003 Perhaps you have had some understanding attentive students....but I assure you, I've seen it take place....fortunately, not too often, but at least one ended in death and the whole thing was photographed with a long lens from ground. Bill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #23 June 20, 2003 QuoteTwo days before it happened, I told another jumper, "remeber the name M.....R.....R....., because she is going to die soon. TWO DAYS So why didn't you go talk to her? Or did you talk to her, and she didn't listen? Or did I miss you saying it was your student and you had already talked to her? As someone who's had a malfunction during student jumps, it did take me a while to identify, assess, and decide (my version of IAD). I opened at 5.5, and was under my reserve and checking alti at just under 3. Because of that, and because I have low jump numbers, I want to pull higher because I want that time to decide is this a mal I should cut from or not? An extra 5 seconds or so to make that decision is not an issue, and I pull regularly at 4-4.5. Does this mean I can do big ways? NO....then again, I am not ready to do them, either. Further, I like the time under canopy. There is so much to learn about how a canopy behaves and more specifically how my canopy behaves that the more time I spend under it the better. Just my views... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #24 June 20, 2003 QuotePerhaps you have had some understanding attentive students....but I assure you, I've seen it take place....fortunately, not too often, but at least one ended in death and the whole thing was photographed with a long lens from ground. Bill IMO, If she was not trained on emergency procedures, the Instructor and/or DZ is at fault. I've had some student do some interesting things under canopy, in the air, and even just on the ground, but they are trained on how to handle and malfunction. Our students are given a decision altitude (an altitude to which you need to decide if you are keeping this canopy or not.) We have no way in knowing if the student is going to screw up or not until they are given a chance. But they will have a better chance of surviving with the knowledge that we provide to them during AFF and through their A license. We teach them to practice their emergency procedures over and over and over again. We can only educate the newer jumpers, what they choose to do with that knowledge is their choice. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #25 June 20, 2003 QuoteGood morning Judy. Yes a cutaway and quick pull for the reserve is in fact dealing with the problem of a mal. Unfortunately, students sometimes think, "phits not too bad...maybe if I can shake these lines it will clear" I had a series of photos showing a woman doing this, she disappeared behind the treetops and never got her hand on the reserve ripcord. Two days before it happened, I told another jumper, "remeber the name M.....R.....R....., because she is going to die soon. TWO DAYS. I was called by the police, and I cried for her....she hadnt been taught not o fool with a mal...she hadnt been told get rid of it....so she decided on her own, "Oh, I think I can fix it, "and was seen for the entire fall, shaking the lines apart as if that would help. Student mentality in this matter is NOT the same as a mature jumper who has been taught properly to chop it and get the reserve out quickly, so they will live to untangle the damn lines when they have their feet on solid ground. BILL Cypress?? -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
