Why?

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I fully support seatbelt and helmet laws. These laws are in place to protect people who aren't smart enough to protect themselves. We also have bicycle helmet laws. A few years ago a teenage girl fell off her bike here at very low speed, hit her unprotected head on a curb, and died. A helmet would have saved her life.

Based on your statement, you must be for the Gov't banning skydiving entirely. After all, you could hurt yourself. While they are at it, they could require your main to be packed by a rigger because some skydivers are too stupid to pack it correctly themselves.


While we are at it, lets also ban people from working on their own cars, homes, appliances etc because they may be too stupid to do the repairs correctly. We should also require a Gov't approve electrical outlet covers because someone might accidently electrocute themselves because they are too stupid to realize sticking a knife in the socket is dangerous.

I will also assume you want the FAA standing there while you board the plane to check and make sure your helmet complies with Gov't Skydiving Helmet Safety Requirements and to check and make sure your AAD is turned on. Can't pass a law unless you are willing to enforce it, right? DZOs don't have police powers.


Lets also ban small cars because you might die if you are hit by a Semi, while we are at it, we better ban Semi's because they might kill someone if in an accident.


Let also ban gas furnaces and water heaters because if you are too stupid to maintain them, they might blow up. No wait, I know, we could require an annual inspection like we do automobiles in many states.

Is this the kind of world you want to live in?

Skydiving is dangerous, we all know that and accept the risk. If you want to go down the road of more Govt regulations, you have NO IDEA what kind of a can of worms you are opening.

[billvon 2,434]

>How many have been irrefutabley killed be a cypress? And I don't
>mean the other AADs.

Only one that I know of. He bought a cypres because he was not confident he could pull the handles in the right order; he told his friends he would not jump without one. He had to bail out at 1000 feet one day, his cypres didn't arm, he didn't pull the right handles, and he died. Had he not had a cypres, he would not have made the jump, and would be alive today.

[SkyDekker 1,145]

This is not in reply to Bill, just happened to be the last post, but I think we are comparing the wring items.

The Cypres is not similar to a seat belt. In my mind, your mandated reserve is similar to the seat belt. A Cypres would be more like the airbag, it may help or it may kill, but it is a choice we can all make for ourselves.

[dreamsville 0]

I don't know if anyone else has seen this, but we had a guy at our DZ about 3 years ago who had an FXC fire twice in two weeks after he was under an open canopy and above 2,000ft both times. The setting was in the 1,000-1,200ft range. I jumped FXCs for the first few jumps of my AFP course, but now I am suspicious of them due to the above incidents.
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I don't know if anyone else has seen this, but we had a guy at our DZ about 3 years ago who had an FXC fire twice in two weeks after he was under an open canopy and above 2,000ft both times. The setting was in the 1,000-1,200ft range. I jumped FXCs for the first few jumps of my AFP course, but now I am suspicious of them due to the above incidents.
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Perhaps we could have the Govt require only the Cypres and ban all other AADs

[dreamsville 0]

Bill,

Was the guy who wasn't confident about pulling the right handles in the right order a nervous person? Experienced? What do you think stood in the way, and what might have helped him in training?

BTW, at 1,000ft bail-out, I'd pull the reserve. I admit I have no BASE experience.
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[quade 3]

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. . . AAD's tend to be for people who go low...rarely do they have a "true" save. and they do fail. just imagine a 4 way team doing big time over-under's and a cypres goes off in someone's face....that's scary..will it happen? probably not....

I can think of at least one ENTIRE 4-way team that lost altiude awareness and went in as a result. That's ALL 4 MEMBERS.

Maybe a Cypres wouldn't have saved all of them, but chances sure would have been a hell of a lot better.

I can think of another 4-way team that almost did the exact same thing, but were saved because they had them installed.

Geeze man . . . I dunno if the 4-way thing is a valid argument there.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[JJohnson 0]

No I don't think it will happen at all Andy. THe seat belt law had nothing to do with safety. Look at Illinois, where helmets for motorcycles are not required. So why seatbelts??? Government control is my belief. When the mandatory seatbelt laws went into effect a cop could not pull you over for it...strangely about a tear later they changed that. Now a cop can pull over anyone he wants with the perfect excuse.
As for mandatory helmets and AAD's...what purpose does it serve the governement? None. Skydivers are not a big ehough issue to concern themselves over.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[AndyMan 7]

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How many have been irrefutabley killed be a cypress? And I don't mean the other AADs.

I don't think anyone has ever been killed by Cypres firing when it wasn't supposed to.

I can think of a few examples where someone died because the Cypres did not fire. One was a low exit where the unit never armed, the other was Jonny Velocity at SDC - I never heard the results of the official investigation, but I understand the unit was found turned off on initial inspection.

It seems to me that those screaming about how risky it is to use a Cypres sound an awful lot like those who argue it's safer to not wear a seatbelt, because you might be thrown clear in an accident. Yes, I supose it's possible, but like wearing seatbelts, I'll take my chances with the stellar reputation of the unit.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[billvon 2,434]

>Was the guy who wasn't confident about pulling the right handles in
> the right order a nervous person? Experienced? What do you think
> stood in the way, and what might have helped him in training?

Had around 50 jumps. Was the type that simply froze up under pressure; he could do the right thing when asked calmly, but rattle him and he'd lock up. (I didn't know him; this was from third hand reports.)

>BTW, at 1,000ft bail-out, I'd pull the reserve.

He pulled the cutaway handle, then waited. When nothing happened he pulled the main handle. The main inflated, departed, and his RSL was just starting to open his reserve when he impacted.

[billvon 2,434]

>I never heard the results of the official investigation, but I
>understand the unit was found turned off on initial inspection.

Well, but the cypres will shut itself down if it finds an error in its operation. Put another way, if an error causes it to not fire at 700 feet, and it finds itself at what it thinks is 300 feet still in freefall, it will shut down. This makes it look like the unit was never turned on. (I haven't verified this myself, but Bryan Burke tells me he has.)

[billvon 2,434]

>Unfortunately, by adopting that particular attitude you send a
> reckless message to students and others entering the sport that
> neglecting to wear an AAD is worth the 'risk'.

That's exactly right. We send the same reckless message that skydiving itself is worth the risk. I would not want to pass laws to restrict the ability to do either.

>It begs the question,
> what do you have to lose from wearing an AAD?

When you use one you risk a two-canopy-out situation. On one jump a few years back I made a conscious decision to not use an AAD, and was spared injury as a result. Two people did use them, and were injured (fortunately, the injuries were very minor.)

[betzilla 56]

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So, I think we've done fairly well here at my home DZ.

Diverdriver is totally right. My little former home DZ had a rule one year that you couldn't do a freefly jump without a cypres. I didn't have one, and really felt that my rights were being impinged upon.

At our home DZ (diverdriver and I are form the same DZ), it was posted as a recommendation when I first came here to visit, that all freeflyers jump with Cypreses, audibles and hard helmets. I think every freeflyer who calls this DZ home jumps with all three, and it's mostly people who've been in the sport for a long, long time (along with new jumpers buying their gear one piece at a a time) who jump without them.

We all know that skydivers want what the other skydivers have. So if your role models jump with AAD's, you probably do too.

Now that I have a cypres, I would feel kinda funny jumping without one. but I don't think it should be mandated.

[skydyvr 0]

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Based on your statement, you must be for the Gov't banning skydiving entirely. After all, you could hurt yourself.

I see the day coming when we all have to wear those silly bicycle style helmets all day every day, except in bed.

After all, you can bump your head just about anywhere if you aren't careful.

. . =(_8^(1)

[MuffDiver 0]

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Why isn't there a law against skydiving? That would really reduce the number of fatalities.

Law should be used to protect society from avoidable and unnecessary risks. Not to protect individuals from their personal choices.

Well said Philly, I couldn't agree more. Why don't we make football and hockey illegal too, I heard that sometimes people get hurt there too.

__________________________________________________
Don't take life too seriously. You'll never get out alive.

[dreamsville 0]

There are other rigger theories about Johnny's situation, including that the reserve may have had trouble fully deploying because he was on his back after he was knocked out, and that the AAD device was damaged upon impact so that it was off at that time. Taking into account what BillVon said, I suppose it also could have shut off if nothing was deploying correctly and he was still falling. I suppose we'll never absolutely know.

I'll miss Johnny. Videos I have from when groups of us jumped show him always smiling, except when he had an intense expression while waiting for exit on the camera step for a free-fly jump.
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[Ron 7]

Was this AL?????

Exit from a Cessna?

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[betzilla 56]

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I can think of a few examples where someone died because the Cypres did not fire. One was a low exit where the unit never armed, the other was Jonny Velocity at SDC - I never heard the results of the official investigation, but I understand the unit was found turned off on initial inspection.

Actually, the results of Airtec's investigation of Johnny Velocity's Cypres show that it was operational, and fired normally at about 700 ft, just like it's supposed to. When there's a fatality the units often get sent to Airtec, because they can get all kinds of data from the Cypres computer, if it's not too badly damaged.

In Johnny's case, Airtec went through several (I'm thinking ten, but I don't remember exactly) cutters in their efforts to produce a situation similar to what we initially believed happened: A Cypres malfunction OR what we secondly believed happened: A Cypres fire that was hampered by the container (yes, we sent Airtec the rig, too).

They were not able to produce either set of results. Airtec's conclusion was that after the Cypres fire, the pilot chute entangled with, or was trapped by some part of Johnny's body, probably an arm. I've been told (but have never seen it, thank God) that a person falling unconscious looks as though he is waving his arms, so it's easy to imagine how that could entrap a pilot chute, if sprung while a guy is on his back.

So the Cypres still has a good record, as far as I've heard.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Based on your statement, you must be for the Gov't banning skydiving entirely. After all, you could hurt yourself.

I see the day coming when we all have to wear those silly bicycle style helmets all day every day, except in bed.

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You don't think you need a helmet in bed????? I have banged my head on the headboard too many times. I think a requirement to wear a helmet in bed is a good idea. It will protect people like me who are too stupid to know better.

[base311 0]

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Fine, maybe only 3 saved unconscious skydivers in 12 years.

How many have been irrefutabley killed be a cypress? And I don't mean the other AADs.

Sure CReW or some stuff, don't wear it, but in general..

Although not necessarily irrefutably the cypres's fault, it appears that the cypres fire in this press release on airtech's website contributed to the death of the co-pilot and pilot. Granted, had it been turned off then this may not have happened, but - y'know - shit happens. I wouldn't exactly call this particular fire a 'save'. It's all about responsibility. As the article says, "...section 2.2 of the CYPRES User's Guide states that the Student CYPRES should be switched off when descending in a jump plane."

YMMV,
Gardner

[billvon 2,434]

>Was this AL?????

>Exit from a Cessna?

It was an exit from a cessna, but I forget the guy's name. It was 7-8 years ago.

[Ron 7]

If it was in AL...I think it was a guy name Richard????

He owned/worked at a jewlery store and went into some trees.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[dzjmg 0]

I could be wrong (and I may be) but it seems to me more jumpers have died with an AAD in their rig, than without.

[PhreeZone 15]

In the late 80's it was extremely rare to have a fatility with a perfectly operating main canopy. In the 90's the AAD moved the stats from the no pull to the open canopy side of the equation.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I could be wrong (and I may be) but it seems to me more jumpers have died with an AAD in their rig, than without.

Perhaps that because more jumpers have AADs.