I had my pre-second bag lock

[Magistr8 0]

This past weekend on my second jump of the day on saturday, I was practicing my papper pulls to I could move up to my 10 second delays. Anyways, the jump goes great and I look up and I'm falling too fast. The bag is above me and I am stable but there is no canopy comming out. "Oh Shit" I am thinking.

After about 4 seconds the thing finally opened and I was relieved. I am wondering if not stowing the lines to tightly would prevent this from happening in the future, and what you would all consider to be the norm in this situation.

All opinions welcome.

[feelopen 0]

my opinion is:

don't get in the habit of waiting four seconds. chop bag locks fast! In this case, (you were really high?), it ended up opening - they usually don't.

what kind of lines, pilot chute, canopy, stows/bands, how many wraps etc.. all enter into the equation.

what's a papper pull? did you pack the main?

cheers,

cp

[John4455 0]

I had a bag lock once. What happened was a line from a line stow group wrapped around another line stow group, so when they unstowed they just cinched tight. There was the strength of two rubber bands holding it together. I guess it is possible, but I doubt that your lines were stowed too tight.

How do ya like it Johnny?

[dreamsville 0]

Consult your local rigger, but consider the condition of your pilot chute and bridle, and was it properly cocked? My guess is if the bag was out, the pilot chute was out of the burble by then (you didn't mention a horseshoe). Have your rigger also check the way you/whoever packed it are stowing the lines. The last thing that comes to mind is, if stows are too large, one stow can lock within the loop of another. I don't know whether that happened and then it freed itself.
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[DexterBase 0]

Quote

I am wondering if not stowing the lines to tightly would prevent this from happening in the future...

This is dangerous. Loose stows cause linedump, which in my opinion is more dangerous than a baglock that won't clear. If I have a baglock (I've had one before) I will gladly chop it.

Linedump can cause extremely hard openings which can damage both equipment and SKYDIVERS!

An easy way to prevent baglocks; Leave more room between the conector links and the last stow. This will generate more "snatch force" when the bag is lifted from the pack tray. This will help overcome the tight stows. Also, it never hurts to have someone look and see if you're using the right rubberbands, just to make sure.

Stay safe out there! --Dex

[mikeat10500 9]

Magistr8
First off take instruction from your instructors. They
know what you are doing and some others may not.
If you were taught to count and chk your canopy
after the count it would be at least 4-6 seconds.
With 8 jumps I doubt you are packing your own main and should not have and a bag lock in the first place...but it did not stay locked....thats called a slow
deployment. lots of things could cause this...baffed
Pilot Chutes being one of them.
"For those confused by the terminology PAPER TOSS
is a training rip cord pull for toss outs. News paper
in PC pouch ( normally belly mount) is hand deployed by student wile JM performs IAD."
NO...loose line stows cause bag locks.
So were you doing a delay 3-5 sec and opened you
own main or an IAD?
....mike
P.S.
Have lots and lots of fun!!!!

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[Magistr8 0]

Thanks to all of you for the replies. I'll do what I can here to clear up some things.
Starting from the top:

FeelOpen> I don't have the information to answer al of those questions at this time but I will get back to you after the weekend.

I was at 3000 feet.

DexterBase> What would be some good questions to ask my rigger and person packing next time I watch them pack?

Mikeat10500> Your right, i'm not packing my own chute, but have been shown how to do so. I will not attempt this for a while.

Thank you for clearing up the terminology for me, what I thought was a bag lock appears to now indeed be a slow. Yes I was doing an IAD, I should be pulling my own chute after this weekend.

Thank you all for your input, i'll look into the matter some more.

[jumpgod 0]

A) glad you're down safe

B) chop it when this happens

C) don't double band your locking stowes

....my best advice...."if it's not square and doesn't flare, chop it."

jg

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

This is dangerous. Loose stows cause linedump

Have you seen the new 'stow-less' d-bag? Very loose locking stows could cause the canopy to inflate prior to line strectch, but this is very rare. I have asked for outside video of line dump and no one seems to have it. I have video of extremely hard openings that were not caused by line dump. Too tight of stows can cause a bag lock. I had a bag lock on a tandem, due to the packer double-stowing the lines.

Hook

[Magistr8 0]

Thank You.

The only thing that worries me is when and if I have my first mal, How long to I try to correct it? Will I panick? These are rehtorical questions but something I think of every time I jump.

[towerrat 0]

I've seen the new stowless bag. someone at my DZ was jumping for a while, although I'm not sure if he still is.He is a rigger and a very good skydiver and instructor. I personally thought it looked scary as hell.Has any one else seen it, what are your thoughts?

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[dterrick 0]

Hey Peter!

I don't remember you talking a bout a baglock Saurday night and it wasn;t even drunk outside

I'd agree with those who sugest you had a slow opening and not a baglock. That said, on jump #20 I had what I'd call baglock after a pilot chute in tow of about 5 seconds. that was a 20 second delay and I chopped it - only to see a partially inflated canopy float away from me, slider up. If you were jumping the cruiselite you may have had a similar opening.

The most important thing is that you followed your training including the 5 count - check thousand - as did I. In good time you will develop your own sense of the deployment sequence and instinctively know when something is wrong and what you options are. Right now it's best to do as you did ... and if at 'check ,000" it'not open ... ... ... well you can join the Reserve Riders club (and buy another Bubba)

C ya in the sky this weekend

Dave

PS: a great example of this learning process is the "1,000 ft snivel" I had out of Brians Sabre on my last jump. We broke off at just below 4,000 and I turned, tracked, and pulled as normal - about 2500 ft. I felt the bag come off my back and saw just a bit of parachute above the slider dancing to the left and right 3 or 4 times . I was about to yank on the rear risers to get this thing open NOW when the slider came down .... but the story's not over yet. After opening the chute compressed (front to back) twice and only then did it stabilize and leave me happily hanging. My altitude ....? 1600 ft . A hundred jumps ago that main would have been chopped long before then. Hell, as it was, I was running real close to chopchop time ...

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[mikeat10500 9]

Hook
I know we have talked about this before but do not
remember it coming to a conclusion. Someone asked about hard openings and line dump came up.
I would like someone to clear this up for me so I am
not spreading mis-information.( riggers to 1st students feel free to jump in).
I can not see a direct relationship between line dump and hard openings. I had a Cruiselite with 550
braided lines in tube stows. I now jump a PD with
microlines. I did not change my big tube stows so
my microlines are all but falling out of the stows.
( Please do not take this as a recommended method) My main never,never,never opens fast/hard. Keep in mind the locking stows are tight
enough to stop "canopy out" before line stretch.
I can however see line dump causing a line over
or bag lock if loose lines wrap around bag or locking stows etc. People with a lot more experience
than me, tell me "line dump can and does cause
hard openings". HOW? What am I missing?
...mike

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[aneblett 0]

Quote

The only thing that worries me is when and if I have my first mal, How long to I try to correct it? Will I panick? These are rehtorical questions but something I think of every time I jump.

Pete. Funny meeting you on here instead of at the DZ. Here is what I have to say about your questions.



I too wondered at your number of jumps how I would react in a mal. To counteract that nagging doubt I always listened carefully to the instructors, practiced dilegently my emergency procedure, asked a lot of questions. Something else I also listened to was other jumpers (experienced) descriptions of what their mals looked like and how it felt.

When you do have one don't worry about trying too long to correct it. You won't. Training dictates we try twice to fix things that we think are fixable and then we move on. That is exactly what you will do. And you will do them in lightning speed cause the human self preservation instinct is like the 8th wonder of the world

I had my first and only mal at Jump #35. I was at Springhill (for those of you who aren't from Winnipeg this isn't a normal DZ. it is actually a skihill that we have an event at annaully) jumping from a Bell 206 helicopter. This was my second time that day jumpinf from the heli. I was still nervous about that situation but I jumped. threw. waited. My internal clock went off telling me it was taking to long. I looked up and poof it opened. I had never seen a lineover before but listening to the experienced jumpers told me exactly what it was so I recognized it immediately. I didn't panic at all. I yelled "Shit" (more annoyed than anything else I haven't quite figured out why) and located my handles and chopped. I believe that my training took over. Here was a situation that I didn't panic about because I knew what I had to do.

Since then I have been in several situations where one might think that panic was in order but training and instincts that come with experience take over and you assess and react quickly (steering line knotted around finger, break unstowed during opening(on my stiletto)).

In other words dude don't worry too much about just pay attention to what is taught and you wil do fine.

Age

S.E.X. party #2

..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it.

[jdfreefly 1]

Heath Richardson at Crosskeys is on the PD factory team and is sponsored by Javelin. He has been jumping the stow-less bag for quite a while now. He loves it.

It has been a while since I asked him about the openings on it but the last time I did he said they were actually better.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[Hooknswoop 19]

I think that as long as the lines play out smoothly (tail pocket, rubber bands/tube stows/sky-bands, stow-less D-bag, etc) and the bag stays shut until the lines are taut, then it makes no difference in how hard the canopy opens. It may take more or less altitude to open because the canopy may take longer to come to get to line stretch, but the opening forces should be the same.

I have packed a Stiletto 120 and a PD-170 in a free-bag style bag, with a velcro pouch and two rubber band (sky-bands actually, testing them too) locking stows. They open nicely.

Hook

[mikeat10500 9]

Hook

Then would you say, I am correct in assuming, that
how hard( not how fast total time) a parachute
opens is directly related to how fast the slider comes down.( deployment stage #3 )
1. slider off = damage
2. slider down fast= hard
3. slider smooth=normal
4. slider slow=soft
5. slider hung up=mal
...mike

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[Hooknswoop 19]

I would agree with that and add 1.5. slider down very fast = very hard and possible damage.

Hook

[Magistr8 0]

It is a little funny seeing you guys on here, but hey, learning is learning right.

I feel a little better about what happened now because I have just had the chance to learn some more about it. After talking to you guys on saturday it made me feel a lot better about what happened but also like I said on Saturday I didn't want to bother you guys with the same topic over and over again.

It's nice to know that with the knowledge all of you guys have there I should be alright. Comming on here helps to fill in small gaps such as: Double twisting bands, the types of lines etc.

I should see both yourself and Dave later in the day Sat and\ or Sun at the DZ.

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"Impossible is a word to be found only in the dictionary of fools." Napoleon Bonaparte