Re: [Blahr] CYPRES Save!

[Ron 7]

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FORCING someone to jump without them??!?
Come on, dude. Thats just plain rediculous.

No people who rely on them are rediculous. If someone will not jump without one, then they are placing way to much fait on it.

Again, I like them, and I have one....But I also have 600 jumps without one and that started on jump #13. So I know I can save myself....I have an AAD incase I screw up and should have died, but I don't rely on them.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Blahr 0]

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FORCING someone to jump without them??!?
Come on, dude. Thats just plain rediculous.

No people who rely on them are rediculous. If someone will not jump without one, then they are placing way to much fait on it.

I agree with the concept on paper
I understand what you are saying and I agree in spirit.

But what if that one jump that they were forced to make without the AAD turns out to be the one where they need it. They smack their head on the door/tail/jumper/migrating goose, and are knocked out. Then they die when they might have lived.

You are 100% correct. People should take responsibility for saving their own lives and not rely on an AAD to do it for them. But theres no way to reasonably force people to do that.

Its not reasonable to demand that someone intentionally make a jump with a narrower margin of safety just to prove to someone else that they are willing to do so, because if that does turn out to be the one jump that the AAD was meant for, then the person that forced them to not use it is a murderer.

Increased reliability and safety will breed complacency in some folks. Its human nature and cant be avoided.
The best anyone can do is teach students the best you can and hope that they listened.
Forcing folks to jump with no AAD doesnt really change anything. It doesnt make the sport safer. It wont make people less complacent.
It COULD cause someones death.

I only have 57 jumps. The first 20 were on student gear with an AAD, the next 37 were on my first rig with no AAD or RSL.
I can do it both ways too.
Still, even though I agree with your concept of forcing personal responsibility, I would never support a requirement that would force someone to jump with no AAD in order to prove themselves. If such a requirement existed, I would simply never get my D because I would certainly refuse to turn off the AAD that I worked so hard to buy just to prove something to someone else

[Ron 7]

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I agree with the concept on paper
I understand what you are saying and I agree in spirit.

Then it seems you are not one of the ones I am worried about. Good.

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But what if that one jump that they were forced to make without the AAD turns out to be the one where
they need it. They smack their head on the door/tail/jumper/migrating goose, and are knocked out. Then
they die when they might have lived.

Based on statistics this has a very low chance of happening.
Look at the CYPRES "Saves" most are people that loose altitude awareness, not getting knocked out.

Plus if you KNEW you didn't have one, don't you think you would be a little more careful?

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Its not reasonable to demand that someone intentionally make a jump with a narrower margin of safety just
to prove to someone else that they are willing to do so,

USPA makes you do night jumps. Comments?

Look I don't think we should actually do this. But if you are unwilling to jump without one, then you should look at the fact that you are DEPENDENT on it. And then you need to look at your involvment in this sport if you think you NEED an AAD. Not WANT. If it was a want you could jump without it. But if you will not, then it becomes a NEED.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[andy2 0]

nobody has ever made me do a jump, night or otherwise. You don't have to pursue USPA's licenses if you dont want to.

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[Jimbo 0]

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then you should look at the fact that you are DEPENDENT on it. And then you need to look at your involvment in this sport if you think you NEED an AAD. Not WANT.

Is dependency (by your definition) on an AAD a bad thing? I won't drive without a seatbelt, should I reconsider my involvement in driving? If someone choses to only jump an AAD equiped rig because they understand that there may be situations beyond their control where having an AAD may save their life, is that a bad thing? I don't think so.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Ron 7]

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Is dependency (by your definition) on an AAD a bad thing?

Yes...Otherwise why would I bother typing all this crap?

If you will do things that you normally would not do without one...It is a bad thing.

I will drive without a seat belt, and did for several years.

I also know that a seat belt is not a save all that will protect me from all things.

I don't drive at 100 miles an hr and say that "It's OK I have a seat belt!"

If you will not do something without an AAD maybe you should not do it at all? This includes skydiving in general.

They fail.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Jimbo 0]

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I will drive without a seat belt, and did for several years.

I won't drive without a seatbelt. I don't feel that it makes me a safer driver, and I don't drive differently than if it wasn't there, but I do recognize the significant safety benefit that comes from using it.

That said... Somehow I've allowed myself to be pulled into yet another CYPRES debate. I'm outta this one.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Ron 7]

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I won't drive without a seatbelt. I don't feel that it makes me a safer driver, and I don't drive differently
than if it wasn't there, but I do recognize the significant safety benefit that comes from using it.

OK lets say I had a cherry 1966 Corvette that didn't have seat belts and I was willing to give you the keys...

Would you drive it?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rhino 0]

You crack me up Ron.. lol

I have a cypress for the SPECIFIC event that I am somehow knocked out. I sized my reserve to be one that I could POSSIBLY live through a landing if I am knocked out.

pd126 reserve.. In full brakes.. Providing I don't fly into a building, trees or powerline.. I think I would be o.k... Especially if I am wearing a helmet..

Rhino

[Alambic 0]

Quite frankly Ron for me you are mixing two things:

-People who think that whatever they do the cypres will save them and do stupid things (BAD)

-People who know the Cypres is an added security, without thinking it will save them in some cases (not all), and because this cases will always exist they don t see why they should jump without a Cypres (i am of those ones)

I am not dependant, I am careful...

Alambic

[Ron 7]

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Quite frankly Ron for me you are mixing two things:

-People who think that whatever they do the cypres will save them and do stupid things (BAD)

-People who know the Cypres is an added security, without thinking it will save them in some cases (not
all), and because this cases will always exist they don t see why they should jump without a Cypres (i am
of those ones)

I am not dependant, I am careful...

No, Im not...You just think I am.

Say what you want. If you will not do something without something that you will do with it...Then you ARE dependent on it.

How hard is that to grasp?

With it, you jump.
Without it, you don't.

So you have it and jump, or don't have it and don't jump.

How is that not dependence?

Atleast admit you depend on it....
Its really a simple question

Will I jump without it? If not, and you will jump with it then it becomes a dependence.

We can cover if you let it effect your jumping later...Which I personally think you do if you have to have it to jump in the first place.

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1.The state of being dependent, as for support.
2.
a. Subordination to someone or something needed or greatly desired.
b.Trust; reliance. See Synonyms at trust.
3.The state of being determined, influenced, or controlled by something else.
4. A compulsive or chronic need; an addiction: an alcohol dependence.


Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

How does needing an AAD to jump NOT fit with this discription?

At least admit you depend on it...we can cover if it is smart or not later.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skydivejersey 0]

Had out latest boogie last week. Weird one - 6 cut aways in a week. The last one was my girlfriend. She has 30 jumps and ended up under a spinning mal. Cutaway, pulled reserve. Or at least thought she had. She had grapped the cable and cable stop and pulled it to the end of the loop. She thought she was going to bounce and started punching the reserve container. Fortunately she hit it hard enough to slip the loop of the end of the pin and open the reserve. She had an AAD (didn't fire) but given slightly differing circumstances (ie being forced not to wear one) and not carrying on fighting she would be dead. Did she rely on it - no. Could it have saved her life...yes.
Before you start going on about proper drills and the other things that should of or may of happened differently thats not the point I'm trying to make.
People can react differently to what you expect, the mind can play tricks on you, but in this case it would have saved a life. How can forcing people not to wear one be a good thing. Jump like you haven't got one sure. Force them to - No!

[Ron 7]

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The last one was my girlfriend. She
has 30 jumps and ended up under a spinning mal. Cutaway, pulled reserve. Or at least thought she had. She
had grapped the cable and cable stop and pulled it to the end of the loop. She thought she was going to
bounce and started punching the reserve container. Fortunately she hit it hard enough to slip the loop of
the end of the pin and open the reserve. She had an AAD (didn't fire) but given slightly differing
circumstances (ie being forced not to wear one) and not carrying on fighting she would be dead. Did she
rely on it - no. Could it have saved her life...yes.
Before you start going on about proper drills and the other things that should of or may of happened
differently thats not the point I'm trying to make.
People can react differently to what you expect, the mind can play tricks on you, but in this case it would
have saved a life. How can forcing people not to wear one be a good thing. Jump like you haven't got one
sure. Force them to - No!

No dude she screwed up her procedures #1. And she should really think about why she did.

#2 She did save herself, so you can't say the CYPRES would have saved her. You don't know it would have fired if it didn't.

Does not look like she relyed on it...But she does need more training on her E procedures...She did keep fighting, but While I am glad she is alive, it would have been fixed by:

#1. Not screwing up the procedures for a cutaway.

You can't call this a CYPRES save since it didn't fire. She saved her own life.....And while she did it the long way, she did save her own life.


Good for her! Now work on those procedures more.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skydivejersey 0]

No but it

[skydivejersey 0]

Agreed. She screwed her procedures. I'm sure she's not the first and won't be the last. If someone finds themselves in those or similar circumstances are they going to better off with or without an AAD?

[Ron 7]

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Agreed. She screwed her procedures. I'm sure she's not the first and won't be the last. If someone finds
themselves in those or similar circumstances are they going to better off with or without an AAD?

They would be better not screwing up the procedures, and in this case she did save herself.

I think people should wear a CYPRES, I do. But never to rely on them which means don't do what you would do with it, without it...And yes that measn jumping in general.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Meathorse 0]

Just because someone won't jump without it doesn't necessarily mean they rely on it in they way you're thinking. I remember a lot of talk (in these forums) about how this sport is a balance of risk vs. reward. We love the sport so much that it's worth the risk. We may endure the added risk of jumping at night because, well dammit I don't know first hand, but it just seems so much cooler. What is the benefit of jumping without an AAD? That's added risk with no extra reward.

[Ron 7]

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Just because someone won't jump without it doesn't necessarily mean they rely on it in they way you're
thinking. I remember a lot of talk (in these forums) about how this sport is a balance of risk vs. reward. We
love the sport so much that it's worth the risk. We may endure the added risk of jumping at night because,
well dammit I don't know first hand, but it just seems so much cooler. What is the benefit of jumping
without an AAD? That's added risk with no extra reward.

You don't get it.

People do take more risks since they have these things.
Some people are skydiving now that would not if there were no AAD's.

But AAD's do fail.

And there are people out there that have fires and don't think anything bad about having a fire.

Do you at least see how an AAD fire is a very big issue?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[HeatherB 0]

Throwing my 2 cents in...I agree with Ron on this one, I'll explain.

A little conversation I had with an experienced jumper, a friend of mine, a while back (we had the same # of jumps, around 350):

me: so when your 4 year check is due, will you just jump your rig without your cypres?

guy: yeah, of course. i don't mind jumping without a cypres. but...i probably wouldn't do any bigger rw stuff or do freefly jumps with several ppl in the air with me. ("bigger" rw meaning around 10 ppl or more, this person is a friend of mine, so i know what he meant)

me: sooo....you will do certain jumps with a cypres that you wouldn't do without a cypres?

guy: well...no...i mean....umm....you know, i'd just want to be extra careful.


Anyhow. So, to me if you will "scale back" the types of jumps you do when you do not have a cypres in your rig, it means that you are dependent on your Cypres. You are willing to take extra risks when you do have that cypres on your back.

Anyone disagree with that?

By the way, my 4 year check is due in January.

[Meathorse 0]

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You don't get it.

Oops.

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Do you at least see how an AAD fire is a very big issue?

Yes.

Thanks for that example Heather. I see the issue now.

Just looks like it's being cut pretty black and white. Either you'll jump without a CYPRES, or you rely on it too much. Surely there are people who will not jump without one for the plain and simple reason of being as safe as possible. Not because it makes them feel invincible...

[Ron 7]

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Just looks like it's being cut pretty black and white. Either you'll jump without a CYPRES, or you rely on it
too much. Surely there are people who will not jump without one for the plain and simple reason of being as
safe as possible. Not because it makes them feel invincible...

Oh there are, but who knows who is who?

I have one, I prefer to jump with it, but I will jump without it.

And thats the litmis test...Would you jump without it? What if it did not exist would you be a skydiver?

If you can answer these to yourself and be truthful, it will show you.

But either way if you get saved by one you really need to look at your life and this sport.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[TimBSky 0]

For those of us who started before the Cypress was available, an AAD wasn’t really an option. If you had one (FXC, etc…) people wouldn’t jump with you. Therefore, when we went through AFF or static line, we were aware that the minute we were off student status, we had to pull or we would die. There were probably many people who decided that this was an unacceptable risk and decided not to continue jumping. Today’s students aren’t faced with this added risk after getting off student status and some who probably wouldn’t have continued in the sport have continued jumping. I guess my point is that different people have different thresholds of acceptable risk. Does this make them reliant on the Cypress? Maybe. The number of Cypress saves today certainly appears to higher than the number of low-pull/no-pull fatalities in the past. Maybe the answer is better education about the consequences of a low-pull/no-pull situation and the possibility that the Cypress may not save you! I’ve always believed that if you have a Cypress fire, you’re theoretically dead anyway, so you can’t jump anymore.

[kallend 1,623]

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Just looks like it's being cut pretty black and white. Either you'll jump without a CYPRES, or you rely on it
too much. Surely there are people who will not jump without one for the plain and simple reason of being as
safe as possible. Not because it makes them feel invincible...

Oh there are, but who knows who is who?

I have one, I prefer to jump with it, but I will jump without it.

And thats the litmis test...Would you jump without it? What if it did not exist would you be a skydiver?

If you can answer these to yourself and be truthful, it will show you.

But either way if you get saved by one you really need to look at your life and this sport.

Ron

When I started skydiving the CYPRES existed but I had not heard of it (or AADs in general). I strongly suspect many others have the same experience. So, to answer you question, I would have taken up skydiving if CYPRES didn't exist.

However, once I heard of the device I thought it was a great idea, and I believe that not having and using one if you can afford it (which I can) is just stupid. Making a jump without one just to show that you can is equally stupid. This sport is about risk management, not bravado.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Jimbo 0]

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Making a jump without one just to show that you can is equally stupid. This sport is about risk management, not bravado.

Well said, Professor.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Nullified 0]

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Anyhow. So, to me if you will "scale back" the types of jumps you do when you do not have a cypres in your rig, it means that you are dependent on your Cypres. You are willing to take extra risks when you do have that cypres on your back.

Anyone disagree with that?

By the way, my 4 year check is due in January.

Well, I'll do a hop 'n pop without an alti or hook knife, but you sure as hell won't catch me doing CRW without either.
Just because you will or won't do certain...especially extreme...jumps with or without certain equipment doesn't mean that you're dependant upon that equipment. For some people, yeah I agree with what you're both saying. But MY point is that not everyone who does or doesn't do something does it for the same reasons as other people.
For some...SOME, it simply means recognizing a significantly greater risk attached to a particular jump, and making sure that they are as well prepaired as possible, in the equipment department as well (Hopefully) as the training department.
So, I gues you could say that I do and don't disagree with you. It depends upon the thought process that brought a particular person to a particular decision. Not everyone thinks alike or does things for the same reasons, and you shouldn't pretend that that's not the case.

Stay safe.

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.