bluewaterstream 0 #1 August 20, 2003 Hey all, I'm a total newbie with only two jumps, 1 Tandem and Level I AFF, and I'm probably going to sign up for Level II in a week or so. My concern at this point in the game is with the people packing my main and more importantly the reserve. I can't wait until I have the knowledge and ability to pack my own main! So, my understanding is that the packers at most, if not all, DZ's that pack the main aren't the same folks packing the reserve. I guess the folks packing the reserve have a special certification and I assume almost never pack a chute that will result with a mal, right? Shouldn't these people packing the main be just as good at packing as the people packing the reserve? I'm sketching out a bit, because a guy in my Level I class experienced a "line over" with his main on his first jump. I have no doubt in my mind that I can handle a mal, and will be expecting one with every jump, but I guess my question is do most of you feel better about jumping with your own pack job? These cats at my DZ pro pack chutes in about 5 minutes, that's insane! It frightens me that making good time and making as much money as possible is more important than the quality of their pack jobs. I think I would prefer it if they took a few extra minutes packing mine. Also, a few of these packers have less jumps than me! I'm an avid rock climber and snowboarder and I'm used to having my life in my own hands when doing crazy sh*t. I hate having to trust someone elses packing ability and essentially trusting my life to someone I don't even know. Did most of you feel this way when first getting into skydiving? Also, is it true that "line overs" are less likely to occur with a flat pack? ~ John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyIvan 0 #2 August 20, 2003 Congratulations on you AFF progression. The RESERVE chute is packed by a Certified Rigger, the main is packed by a packer or the jumper him/herself. You can watch how it's done, and as you continue your AFF you can start getting packing lessons, the only way in which you can pack a malfunction is if you are careless when packing, regardless of the method.__________________________________________ Blue Skies and May the Force be with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #3 August 20, 2003 QuoteI guess the folks packing the reserve have a special certification and I assume almost never pack a chute that will result with a mal, right? Shouldn't these people packing the main be just as good at packing as the people packing the reserve? People who pack your reserve are FAA certified riggers and must go through intensive training and testing before they get their certification. And, there are no guarantees in this sport - mals happen. QuoteThese cats at my DZ pro pack chutes in about 5 minutes, that's insane! It frightens me that making good time and making as much money as possible is more important than the quality of their pack jobs. I think I would prefer it if they took a few extra minutes packing mine. Or, did you ever stop and think that they have done it so many times that they can do it safely in that amount of time? My first pack job that I did took 1 hour. My current time is about 10-15 minutes depending on how much BS'ing I do while packing. I can see doing a pack job in 5 minutes. It's all a matter of time and experience. You'll learn to pack your own main as part of your training. Then, with the concerns you've stated, just pack your own main. And, in time if you so choose, become a rigger so you can pack your reserve. Enjoy the skies!Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #4 August 20, 2003 > So, my understanding is that the packers at most, if not all, DZ's > that pack the main aren't the same folks packing the reserve. A rigger has to pack your reserve. (Actually you can as well, as long as you're under his supervision.) People who pack your main have to be under the supervision of a rigger as well, but most people ignore that rule. This does not have to take place at the DZ; indeed, many people use off-DZ riggers to repack their reserves. >I guess the folks packing the reserve have a special certification and >I assume almost never pack a chute that will result with a mal, right? Personally I think the odds of a good packer packing a mal and a good rigger packing a mal are pretty similar, but: 1. reserves are inherently more reliable; they snivel less, use a freebag, are generally in really good shape etc. 2. you use it so rarely that even if your odds are the same on both (say, 1 in 1000) you'd have to make millions of jumps to see a reserve mal. But they do happen. > These cats at my DZ pro pack chutes in about 5 minutes, that's insane! I pack mine in about 6. No mals in the past 1500 jumps. >Also, is it true that "line overs" are less likely to occur with a flat pack? A good propack vs a good flatpack will result in about the same # of lineovers. A bad propack is more likely to get a lineover than a bad flat pack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #5 August 20, 2003 Your concern is a good one. Drop zone packers often have no ratings, but lots of experience packing mains. The FAA requires that the main be packed by the person using it, an FAA rigger, or somebody else under the direct supervision of an FAA rigger. Many drop zones skip the "under direct supervision" part and let any yahoo pack the student mains as long as they have been trained. See article 11 at http://ranchskydive.com/safety/index.htm. The folks who pack your reserve must be rated as a senior or master rigger by the FAA, or must be under the direct supervision of a rigger...most drop zones follow the regs on reserve pack jobs. Learning to pack a main is pretty easy, and your instructors should be able to help you master the skill. It is generally taught around jump 4-5, but there is no reason you can't learn now. Ask your instructor to show you how...the best time to learn is actually on a rainy or cloudy day when the staff has time to show and tell, then watch you pack a few yourself. Your attitude about self control is a good one and will serve you well in skydiving, as it has in rock climbing. Many skydiving students are afraid of packing their own parachutes so they pass the task along to others. Doing it yourself is always a great idea and will help you to better understand your equipment. Once you get your own gear a good rigger will let you watch as he packs your reserve. If you have experience packing your main, he should even be willing to watch you pack your own reserve. Keep in mind it takes more time and energy to supervise a pack job, so tipping your rigger is a great thing to do. Tom Buchanan Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem) Senior Parachute Rigger Commercial Pilot, etc.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phonics1981 0 #6 August 20, 2003 Your concerns regarding packing should give you a good reason to learn how to pack soon! Me personally learned to pack ( packed my first on saturday after 14 jumps!) because it involves learning something new in this cool sport!! I have total trust in the people who packed for me while I was on AFF. They know their shit and soon you'll be packing you chute quick as fuck too. I think you should learn to pack soon cos in my opinion it gives you a better understanding of your gear and saves you waiting for someone to pack for ya, but in the mean time, dont worry about others packing your canopy for ya, they know what they're doing.. Good luck for the rest of your AFF ------------------------------------------------------ "Ive given up on sigs cos I make a mess of them!" ------------------------------------------------------ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #7 August 20, 2003 QuotePeople who pack your main have to be under the supervision of a packer as well, but most people ignore that rule. BillVon has made a mistake (albeit, likely just a typo) as I believe he meant to say "People who pack your main have to be under the supervision of a rigger" instead of a "packer". Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
selbbub78 0 #8 August 20, 2003 I never thought i'd ever feel comfortable packing my own canopy, and it wasn't until i got up in the air on my first pack job that i realized how great it is to know when you pack it, it will open. bubbles"Women fake orgasms - men fake whole relationships" – Sharon Stone "The world is my dropzone" (wise crewdog quote) "The light dims, until full darkness pierces into the world."-KDM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #9 August 20, 2003 >I believe he meant to say "People who pack your main have to be >under the supervision of a rigger" instead of a "packer". oops! Yeah, that's what I meant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JumpCrazy 0 #10 August 21, 2003 I've packed for myself since jump 10. I trust other people, but I also like to know that if I have a mal, I have nobody to blame but myself.Flying Hellfish #470 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrickyDicky 0 #11 August 21, 2003 Im sure similar things are done in the US but in this country to pack centre (including student) equipment requires a packing certificate. To get this, you go through a packing test (at my dz at least, and its similar at other dz's Ive been to) that consists of getting tangles out (they generally try and really fuck it up), reconnecting and main and attaching a pilot chute. Often you have a time limit to untangle and pack (usually about 1hr). If you are packing under supervision the DZs I have been to have a system where there are 4 check stages: 4 line check (canopy flat, check stearing lines and left/right ABCD lines) to make sure theres no tangles, just before the s-fold and putting in bag to ensure stearing lines are separated from main lines by using the stabilisers, just before its put in the container and finally closed check. UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phonics1981 0 #12 August 21, 2003 Quote in this country to pack centre (including student) equipment requires a packing certificate. . ? I packed a centre rig at peterlee on Saturday...? It was my first pack and i dont have a packing certificate. I had it checked at the 4 stages you mention and it was signed off by a certified packer but I packed it myself. Is this what you mean? ------------------------------------------------------ "Ive given up on sigs cos I make a mess of them!" ------------------------------------------------------ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malev 0 #13 August 21, 2003 QuoteIt was my first pack and i dont have a packing certificate. I had it checked at the 4 stages you mention and it was signed off by a certified packer but I packed it myself. Is this what you mean? These are the four check stages done when packing under supervision (whilst learning how to pack). Actually, the check stages never stop - but once you have your packing certificate you can sign yourself off for these, rather than having to get a certified packer do it for you. Once you've packing about 10 - 15 rigs, you should probably be ready to do the test. You have to be signed off for every different container/canopy/deployment system that you pack. At our DZ, you can't get paid for packing until you have your certificate, plus it makes life much easier when you don't have to stop and try and find someone to do a check every so often - so its worth getting it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrickyDicky 0 #14 August 21, 2003 Sorry, meant to say need a certificate to be unsupervised. Generally it seems the check stages are sufficient supervision. But I would recommend doing your first few packs with someone watching the whole thing just so you know you're doing everything right. Ill be up this weekend. But best to ask tony, the fastest packer Ive ever seen, and extreamly reliable. UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funks 1 #15 August 21, 2003 I am naturally a lazy person. I didnt get my A license until 80+ jumps, I didnt start packing my own rig until around the same time. I now realize that laziness in this sport is very very BAD. Complacency can get you hurt or killed. I now could not imagine jumping a rig someone else has packed. I need to know that I am in complete control of everything when it comes to my skydiving. It is impressive to see you thinking this way after only 2 jumps. That is a rarity, take advantage of your attitude, spend an entire afternoon with a packer or a rigger and before you know it you will be packing your own rigs. Packing is something you can learn in a day if you work at it hard enough...godd luck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bluewaterstream 0 #16 August 21, 2003 Thank you all for the info, advise, and encouragement. I plan on slipping a packer at least a $20 or so for a good packing lesson. Considering that all of the packers at my DZ pro pack, would most of you agree that I should just go ahead and learn that method? Not to be complicated, but from what I've read I think I would rather learn how to flat pack first. It sounds like it may be easier to keep track of all of your lines and may be easier for a beginner to avoid packing a potential line over. Keep in mind, I really don't know very much about either method. Any thoughts??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alanab 0 #17 August 21, 2003 learn to pro pack Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #18 August 21, 2003 QuoteI believe he meant to say "People who pack your main have to be >under the supervision of a rigger" instead of a "packer". oops! Yeah, that's what I meant. I know some riggers who oughta be under the supervision of a packer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #19 August 21, 2003 Sure learn to propack....that's typicaly what you will do in the future anyway. might as well get it right from the begining...although my GF still flat packs her sabre 190...and she has almost 300 jumps...she still has yet to learn to pro pack. it works for her. I never learned how to pro pack...I learned to psycho pack at Sebastian...so much easier to get it in the Dbag that way. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
