Students jumping WITHOUT an altimeter

[listo 0]

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You have made your opinion quite clear, and it's a valid one. You needn't 'defeat' those who disagree with you.

I am not trying to "defeat" anyone in any way. I feel very strongly that altimeters should be worn on every dive, by everyone, even if they aren't going to use it, but that in no way is suggesting that I am 100% correct with my view. However, it does seem to be the general consensus that the majority of people who are reading this seem to agree with me. I think that you would find the general population of skydivers would agree with me as well. If the USPA knew that there were hundreds of people jumping without altimeters....I think they would make it mandatory. After all, the USPA's main focus is safety.

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Generally I don't lock a thread/delete posts unless the rules get broken or someone gives out some really deadly advice (condition your cutaway cables with Elmer's glue or something.)

Quite honestly, I find it to be dangerous advice to suggest to someone to jump without an altimeter. If they are going to use it or not depends on them, but just in case they have to, it would be a darn good idea to have it. There is no room on a skydive for "I wish.....". It is simply cut and dry that proper safety equipment needs to accompany every skydiver on every skydive.

There are really good alternatives to learning how to judge altitude visually without being in lack of proper gear. Quite honestly, I think that jumping without an altimeter is just the same as not jumping with a helmet. You may not need it to make your skydive safer, but the one time that you do need it makes all the difference.


Listo

[PhreeZone 15]

>the USPA knew that there were hundreds of people jumping without altimeters....

Kinda like having a STA handing you thiers on take off. The USPA can only make things manditory at USPA DZ's, they don't force people to jump with goggles so I doubt an alti would ever be required.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,435]

>If the USPA knew that there were hundreds of people jumping
> without altimeters....I think they would make it mandatory. After all,
> the USPA's main focus is safety.

I disagree. If that were the case, AAD's, helmets, closed-toe shoes, etc would all be mandatory, and small canopies would be illegal. However, since USPA represents the interests of all skydivers, and may skydivers choose performance, or looking cool, or free choice over safety, they do not require all possible safety devices.

There are people on the BOD who have jumped without altimeters and helmets; they certainly know there are people out there doing it.

>Quite honestly, I find it to be dangerous advice to suggest to
> someone to jump without an altimeter.

I see advantages and disadvantages to making a few dives without one. Pilots practice stalls and engine-out landings; sometimes people do slightly dangerous things to increase their level of safety, as odd as it sounds.

>. Quite honestly, I think that jumping without an altimeter is just the
> same as not jumping with a helmet. You may not need it to make
> your skydive safer, but the one time that you do need it makes all
> the difference.

Now that I agree with. An altimeter is a backup safety device, one that can come in very handy. You should be able to jump without a helmet, altimeter, AAD, even goggles - even though all those things are good things to have in general.

[listo 0]

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they don't force people to jump with goggles so I doubt an alti would ever be required

yeah.....lets suggest to students to jump without goggles and an altimeter......that would really help them to learn faster.

The planet is big enough to see, you can't miss it......literally. That altimeter is just going to tell you how long you have before you slam into that planet, but you don't need it......and those goggles.....well, they just help you see better. You really don't need to see clearly, its all just a myth. Hey Mr. Student, why don't you just go out and not pull, after all, you need to trust your cypres.

Here is another idea.....Mr. Student, why not turn that cypres off and pull your reserve at 750' so you will know how long it takes to open.....and don't forget to count the seconds as they pass. After all, you wouldn't be wearing an altimeter and you couldn't see it anyway because you wouldn't be wearing goggles. However, once the fast wind stops from you being in free fall, you will be able to see how close you are to the ground so you will know better as to how high you are.

To anyone reading this. My statements above were made with 100% sarcasm and should never be attempted!

The point I am making is that if you take unneccessary risks, you increase your chances of injury or fatality greatly. There is no way to regain altitude on a skydive so second chances are not given. You had better make the best of the one chance you do have and never take it for granted. If you do, it might be your last time doing so.


Listo

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[listo 0]

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Pilots practice stalls and engine-out landings; sometimes people do slightly dangerous things to increase their level of safety, as odd as it sounds.

Pilots practice stalls with enough altitude to recover safely. A stall is not dangerous unless it is low to the ground. Stalls are practiced because there is a better chance of stalling near the ground on take off or landing. I don't know of any pilots that practice take off stalls or landing stalls. They practice those stalls at altitude.

Pilots practice engine out landings by reducing the power to idle. They don't shut an engine down intentionally and practice landing without power.

The same can be said for jumping without an altimeter. Just because an altimeter could fail is not an excuse to jump without one. However, jumping with one and using your eyes to judge altitude and then cross ref'ing with an altimeter IS a safe way of learning, jumping without one IS NOT. Common sense dictates this clearly. If your altimeter is reading 3,500 and you think you are lower than that, then I suggest pulling immediately, common sense. I don't need to jump without an altimeter to know that I feel lower than it is reading. If I feel low, then I am going to pull, no doubt about it what so ever.


use common sense on every dive and stay alive


Listo

[billvon 2,435]

>Pilots practice stalls with enough altitude to recover safely.

So plan a jump without an altimeter with enough altitude to open and land safely.

>A stall is not dangerous unless it is low to the ground.

Many pilots have been killed when a stall progressed to a spin they could not recover from. Yet it is still useful as a training tool.

>Pilots practice engine out landings by reducing the power to idle.
> They don't shut an engine down intentionally and practice landing
> without power.

Engine failure happens most often during power changes, and recip engines have a history of problems when you shock cool them or demand power suddenly from a cooled engine. A 'real' landing on a sod farm after a simulated engine out is not uncommon; CFI's train for this.

>However, jumping with one and using your eyes to judge altitude and
> then cross ref'ing with an altimeter IS a safe way of learning,
> jumping without one IS NOT. Common sense dictates this clearly.

Not to me. If you do a 5 second delay from an aircraft, the odds of an altimeter being a liability outweighs its benefits. This has been backed up by thousands of students who learned to skydive without altimeters. That's not to say people shouldn't use them, but they shouldn't need them - and a few practice jumps without one will help people learn that.

>If I feel low, then I am going to pull, no doubt about it what so ever.

Yet you have never jumped without the information presented by an altimeter available to you, so you can't say that with very great authority. If your primary means of altitude determination works, and you don't need a backup, then the only way you can have 'no doubt about it whatsoever' is to do it.

[rigging65 0]

Amen!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[hobbes4star 0]

this is bullshit. with 300 dives i still don't have the greatest visual atl. i still have to look. they are going to end up in deep shit. hopefully no one has to die before they open their eyes..

if fun were easy it wouldn't be worth having, right?

[AndyMan 7]

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this is bullshit. with 300 dives i still don't have the greatest visual atl.

Yup, I'll give a case of beer to anyone with less then 400 jumps who can consistently pull within +-1000 feet of an intended altitude on a solo jump without an altimeter.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[listo 0]

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Yup, I'll give a case of beer to anyone with less then 400 jumps who can consistently pull within +-1000 feet of an intended altitude on a solo jump without an altimeter

I'll back that up. Lets make it two cases then....

However, I don't want to condone this behavior in the least, but I do have a 200 jump wonder with a D license at my dz and I am going to get him to try to deploy 3 times at 4,500. If he goes below 3,500 on any of the jumps his instructions will be to pull when he sees me wave off. I will pull at 3,000 to make sure he doesn't go below any USPA standards. I am also going to have my camera on and keep my altimeter in sight of the camera for the whole enitre skydive. Our exit alitudes are usually 14,500. He won't be jumping "blind" since I will be there for altitude awareness for both of us and I am going to have him wear a dytter set for 3,000 and set to flatline at 2,000 for emergency procedures. We will do nothing but face each other for the whole dive. I am willing to sacrifice $60 in personal jump tickets for this experiment. He can't pull above 5,000 or pull below 4,000. This will give him 1,000 feet of leeway.


Listo

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[Remster 24]

The point about students not having an alti is not for ALL their jumps, or even SOME of their jumps. Its was, and still is a commun practice at static line and IAD DZs, and in Canada where our BSRs may differ from the USPAs, altis are not required below a certain delay. These students are not supposed to pull +- any number of feet, they re supposed to pull in +- a few seconds. An alti, in my opinion, and in the opinion of the many people who have put together these regs and training syllabus (what the heck is the plural of syllabus anyways), does not add to the overall safety of these jumps. Its one more things to a mind closing in on overloading.

And listo, please do not make general discussions USPA centric. Many of us on this board are not USPA members, simply because we dont live or jump in the US, and last time I check, some of these we live in countries manage to train students fairly well.

Remster

[listo 0]

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Yet you have never jumped without the information presented by an altimeter available to you, so you can't say that with very great authority

Assumptions can make a person look uneducated on certain facts. I have indeed jumped without an altimeter on a few dives. Most of them were tandem video jumps so all I had to do was roll over an pull after the tandem deployed. Most of the time when I do have an altimeter I don't look at it for my pull time. I usually look at it once my canopy has opened. I know pretty well where I am in the air, but I also have nearly 700 jumps worth of experience in doing so. My pull altitudes have always been around 3,000 feet. I have that sight picture engrained in my noodle. Low timers don't have this experience and I don't encourage them in the least to go out and jump without an altimeter. It is lunacy to suggest such a thing.

If someone has 500 or more jumps in a pretty current succession, then maybe it might not be so dangerous to try it, but anyone with less than 500 jumps......well it is just too dangerous in my opinion. Maybe this is could be a partial reason for the USPA changing the D license requirement to 500 jumps from 200. They must recognize that at 200 jumps a person really doesn't know enough for a "D"....which is the "professional" license since it is the highest one attainable.

The rules are changing and I for one am personally very happy to see it. Go USPA, keep people safe from themselves. It is obviously a serious matter in this sport. Who would have ever known that a sport as serious and intricate as what we do could be so full of ignorance. .....and for anyone out there that doesn't think that what we do is serious business, may I suggest getting out while you still can.

Listo

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[hookitt 0]

God??? Is that you?
-

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[listo 0]

I understand that people from other countries have different BSRs. I believe that in an earlier post I mentioned that I am ignorant of foreign policies and in no way wanted to offend any of my foreign brethren.

However, I still don't think that it is a good idea to put anyone out of an airplane without any type of altimeter. I don't care how long it has been done or with any certain safety record. I am sure that somewhere in the world there has been at least one injury because of a low cut away or low pull resulting in a cypres fire because of a lack of an altimeter. I would certainly hope that anyone not jumping with an altimeter has a cypres equipped rig and has it turned on for the jump.

I asked the question earlier on in this thread....how many people who advocate jumping without an altimeter jump year round (52 weekends a year)? I never got a reply. I don't know of any dropzones anywhere that advocate anyone jumping without one that jumps year round. I might be wrong, but I am speaking from what I know. Can anyone shead some light on this for me? Do foreign dropzone have a "safety day" such as the USPA dropzones. Again, I am not saying that the USPA is all mighty by any means.

I do believe that the USPA has some of the more strict standards in the world though. I wonder why that is?

Listo

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[listo 0]

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God??? Is that you?
-

No, but since my accident where I almost died, He and I have a pretty good relationship and He talks to me quite a bit. We made a deal that if he let me live I would do my best to educate the ignorant souls that had attitudes like I did that almost killed me.

Listo

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[Zenister 0]

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you take unneccessary risks

last time i checked skydiving was an "unnecessary risk"

and as a "200 jump wonder" i'd love to drink your beer. depending on the standards set for the test..5 jumps? 10? ..
I agree Altimeters are a very useful safety item. However they are by no means necessary to jump safely.. and i am completely against anyone telling me i HAVE to wear one..

in counter to your statement..go away USPA if you think your job is to save me from myself..

with only 200 jumps i already 'know' what low looks like and the one time my altimeter has stuck at 9k i still pulled at the same alti i usually do (per deployment altitude on my protrack) before my audible went off for (300 ft below) pull altitude


so my .02.

should a student have an altimeter on most jumps? absolutely. On every jump? not necessarily, i would say that call should be up the JM who has a good idea of how aware the student is...but yes i think jumping without an altimeter is something everyone should do occasionally to ensure they are not relying on it to always tell the truth..

many thanks to everyone for their veiwpoints..very informative all around..now, back to lurking

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Remster 24]

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Do foreign dropzone have a "safety day" such as the USPA dropzones

Some have "safety meetings"....

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I asked the question earlier on in this thread....how many people who advocate jumping without an altimeter jump year round (52 weekends a year)?

What of what is the connection with this and students not having an alti on a 5 s delay????

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I am ignorant of foreign policies ***
***I do believe that the USPA has some of the more strict standards in the world though

Please, dont make it sooo easy.....

Some countries have mandatroy AAD requirements for ALL jumpers,
Some countries have mandatory flight lione checks,
I could go on...
Isnt that stricter?

Remster

[ixlr82 7]

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[ixlr82 7]

Still trying to figure out how to do this quote,reply stuff. Have some kind of dive flow when you do this experiment with your 200 jump D licence "experiment". Otherwise he can just hang out there counting, something he wouldn't do on a regular dive.

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[listo 0]

Like I said in my post for the "experiment". There will be a dive flow. He is to pull when he is supposed to without using a visual altimeter. I will be there for a back up of altitude awareness with my TWO altimeters.

Listo

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[Kris 0]

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...I would do my best to educate the ignorant souls that had attitudes like I did that almost killed me.

You know...help has to be wanted, and with your holier-than-thou condescending attitude towards others I can see why you are having a tough time getting your message across.

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I do believe that the USPA has some of the more strict standards in the world though. I wonder why that is?

Not compared to the APF or, especially, the BPA, not even close.

Kris

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[listo 0]

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I do believe that the USPA has some of the more strict standards in the world though

If you noticed.....I said SOME of the more strict standards, not all.

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Please, dont make it sooo easy.....

No need to be so cocky, friend.

Reserve repack dates?
Student altimeters?

I don't care to get into a debate of USPA vs. other countries safety policies. Like I said I am ignorant of foreign policies.

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What of what is the connection with this and students not having an alti on a 5 s delay????

Nothing really, just for my personal knowledge.

Listo

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[Kris 0]

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I don't care to get into a debate of USPA vs. other countries safety policies. Like I said I am ignorant of foreign policies.

Then how can you say: "I do believe that the USPA has some of the more strict standards in the world though"?

Are you not basing any of your arguments off of facts? I would hope you would do some research before making blanket statements such as that. You state one thing then back up two steps and retract it.

Kris

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[listo 0]

Ok, first of all I am using my name for this scenario so nobody can say that I am being condecending or jumping on anyone in particular here.

Lets say that you have a static line student or 5-10 second delay without an altimeter. At deployment something snags a hole in the top skin of the canopy. The student doesn't recognize it until they are about 500 feet above the ground when it tears even more making the canopy less than stable, yet landable. Is that student going to know that they are too low to cut away from it?

Sure, in free fall that student isn't really going to need an altimeter, but what about the canopy ride. Altimeters are more important for the canopy ride than anything else. Wouldn't you say?

Listo

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[listo 0]

I can't read anywhere on this thread that I have retracted anything that I have said? What leads you to believe otherwise. I feel strongly about my views and yes I do base things off of facts.

I gave two instances of the USPA being more strict than the BPA. Unless the BPA has changed, they have a 180 day reserve repack rule where as the USPA uses 120 days. Unless the BPA has changed, they don't require students to wear altimeters, the USPA does.

I said "some" things are more strict and then I backed up what I was saying with two examples. Maybe you should read a little more carefully before posting. I think that I was pretty clear and concise without a retraction of any type.

Listo