1911 0 #1 October 31, 2003 The comapny cliams to have the reserve out of the bag and at line stretch at about 80ft after inital cut away. Q1: At what point would the reserve be fully open (ie: 150ft ect..) after cutaway? and..... Q2: I guess this system would be perfect for a conopy clollision between 300-500ft AGL and has anyone actually survived such an incident using the skyhook? I ask since my first experience at a boogie last month I had a close call about 300ft with two other jumpers that hook turned on either side of me without looking.....and yes I was landing using the correect pattern and in the area for "A" lincense newbies in case you were wondering.When in doubt......Empty the magazine! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 60 #2 October 31, 2003 QuoteThe comapny cliams to have the reserve out of the bag and at line stretch at about 80ft after inital cut away. Q1: At what point would the reserve be fully open (ie: 150ft ect..) after cutaway? and..... The reserve parachute will be FULLY OPEN in 80ft. Download this file and check it for yourself: http://www.relativeworkshop.com/pdf_files/05326.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skipro101 0 #3 October 31, 2003 Does anyone know if it may be possible in the future to retrofit an existing non relative workshop rig with a skyhook?? I want my mirage to have one... It doesnt look like there would be technical problems...it just sits in between two of the flaps on your reserve..... c'mon relative workshop...license it out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #4 October 31, 2003 At this point, you cannot install the Skyhook on anything but RWS mfg'd. gear. Maybe that will change at some point...we all hope so! As for getting it licensed. RWS has made it clear that the reason they are not making it particularly easy for people to get the Skyhook and install it is that they are worried the product will get a bad name. The reasoning goes like this: RWS sells the Skyhook to some Master rigger who (in this case) installs it on an RWS rig, but does it incorrectly (I'm not sure how you would do that, but it could be done I suppose). The jumper has a mal, the skyhook fails to perform and the public blames the skyhook without having all the knowledge that it was installed incorrectly. That just gets all the more complicated when you start trying to add it to other brand rigs. It seems to me that this is a CYA move by RWS to show the public that the Skyhook works as advertised. Eventually it will be released for field riggers to install it, but if they start to fail in field at that point RWS will be able to say "See, it works when installed correctly. It's not the Skyhook's fault". This is a business, folks, and while it pains me to say so (as a sport jumper), RWS has to look out for their best interests monetarily first. I've had this argument with them before, but it's the way they best believe they can protect their product...I can't say I completely blame them either. The unfortunate truth, as those who work deep in the industry know, there are plenty of very out-of-practice/nearly incompetent riggers out there, both Senior and Master. It's scary, but it's a fact of life...and RWS knows it. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 1911 0 #5 October 31, 2003 ""Opening at 600m, bag-lock and cutaway at 150m. He didn't have Cypres. This post is based on report at www.tandemy.sk (in slovak only). Fido"" I guess this guy wished he had a skyhook huh? got this out of a thread on a fatality in the incidents section.When in doubt......Empty the magazine! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 26 #6 October 31, 2003 QuoteI guess this guy wished he had a skyhook huh? sure... but having had reacted quicker to the mal might have also helped. 1500 feet to cutaway is a little long.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,476 #7 October 31, 2003 >c'mon relative workshop...license it out I wouldn't if I were them. Too much chance of a lawsuit. Look at what happened with the Reflex. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #8 October 31, 2003 QuoteLook at what happened with the Reflex. What DID happen with the Reflex (and I'm assuming you further mean by association with Mick/Fliteline)? I was not aware of law suits relative to the licensing out of his patented (meaning the catapult) systems. Maybe you can enlighten me?coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,476 #9 October 31, 2003 >Maybe you can enlighten me? There were several cases of people saying "The catapult almost killed me!" and one case where an investigator claim it _did_ kill the jumper. Turned out to be without basis - the reserve did indeed begin deployment, but the lines of the reserve wrapped so far around the main that it could not fully open. The lawsuit that finally drove them under, though, was not directly related to the Catapult. A jumper sued them when her husband died because a grommet had not been set deeply enough; that problem had previously been seen on several makes of rig. Based on that sort of prevailing attitude (i.e. jumpers are going to sue you if your gear or design causes a problem) it doesn't suprise me that people are more proprietary about the gear they design and sell. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ruffles 0 #10 November 1, 2003 When the skyhook first came out, I asked Bill Booth about getting it on other rigs. He said that the problem isn't so much the lawsuits, but that the phases go something like this: First, otherc ompanies will pooh-pooh it saying it doesn't work. Second, they will try to circumvent the patent and copy it in their own rig Third, they will finally approach Booth about licensing it out and then there's tons of legal mumbo jumbo. Bill said that this process will take a few years. I may get a vector if this true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites webracer 0 #11 November 1, 2003 I am ordering a new Micron, a big change from the Mirage/Javelin stuff I have been loyal to. I even considered the skyhook. I believe in it, especially for low-time jumpers. I don't forsee the need for me personally, and that is my managed risk. If the price for that option wasn't so high though, I probably would have gotten it. It ultimately adds over 10% to the container cost.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #12 November 1, 2003 These suits had NOTHING to do though, specifically with the issue (or any issue arising specifically out of) "licensing" (in of itself) any systems patents out though, as the patents to the best of my knowledge, were in fact never licensed out, correct? I just thought we should be clear about this, as to me, your earlier post impied that the suits were a direct result of licensing, which I don't see in any way, as the direct issue here. If you are referring to concerns that can arise by simply the greater exposure that would result from a wider proliferation of the technology (as a bi-product to it's getting licensed), then sadly, I'm afraid I have to agree. And this is too bad. coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 1911 0 #13 November 2, 2003 """It ultimately adds over 10% to the container cost. """ I do not understand why skydivers are penny pinching............it's YOUR LIFE silly! Whats a couple hundred bucks when you might DIE? I guess I'm blessed with a decent job but still, even if I were a broke ass skydiver I would sell crack to get a safer rig.... do I make any sense at all?....it has nothing to do with a skyhook, if you percieve something might one day save your ass would you not buy it? Whatever........When in doubt......Empty the magazine! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Casch 0 #14 November 2, 2003 A guard dog might save my ass one day, but I'm not gonna buy one Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #15 November 2, 2003 A Skyhook RSL, which is a $175 option on a Vector, greatly decreases the chance that you will lose your reserve freebag and pilot chute, which costs $195. Not only do you get the fastest (yet softest) reserve deployment possible, you might actually save money in the process. Kinda looks like I shot myself in the foot, doesn't it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sburkart 0 #16 November 2, 2003 QuoteKinda looks like I shot myself in the foot, doesn't it? Well, if this is the way you do it I'll buy the ammo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites webracer 0 #17 November 3, 2003 1911, you are missing the point. I don't need the skyhook to do my work for me. I am really a pennypincher, multiple rigs, a new one every season, Cypres in every rig, la la, la. An aad does nothing until you need it. an rsl type device can cause problems if you use it at the wrong time. The skyhook is designed to (hopefully) eliminate the chance of the rsl causing these problems. I would like to set a good example for the newer jumpers that can benefit from this technology, but I am not willing to pay that much to set the example. I think it is too overpriced as well, but people are buying it. I heard RWS is selling it on almost 75% of their rigs.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Casch 0 #18 November 3, 2003 QuoteA guard dog might save my ass one day, but I'm not gonna buy one After re-reading my reply, it sounds a little harsh. I am totally for paying for the Skyhook. It's really not that expensive, at all. But I wanted to express my oppinion that it's OKAY to not buy every single little thing that MIGHT help you one day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #19 November 3, 2003 QuoteKinda looks like I shot myself in the foot, doesn't it? uh.. no... Replace one freebag every several hundreds of cutaways, or add the skyhook to every rig going out on the market. I think your foot will be fine.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KellyF 16 #20 November 5, 2003 QuoteWhen the skyhook first came out, I asked Bill Booth about getting it on other rigs. He said that the problem isn't so much the lawsuits, but that the phases go something like this: First, otherc ompanies will pooh-pooh it saying it doesn't work. Second, they will try to circumvent the patent and copy it in their own rig Third, they will finally approach Booth about licensing it out and then there's tons of legal mumbo jumbo. Bill said that this process will take a few years. I may get a vector if this true. Did you know that Eric Fradet patented a similar system ten years ago? QuoteThe reserve parachute will be FULLY OPEN in 80ft. Download this file and check it for yourself: Don't bet your life on it. There is a BIG difference between having an open canopy within 80' of your cutaway main and having an open canopy in 80' TOTAL. And FWIW, having several Sorcerer BASE rig cutaway's with and without a slider (mesh) on the reserve, don't count on having a FLYABLE reserve at that point. Granted, when you get down in the basement that far, all you're looking to do is save your life Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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skipro101 0 #3 October 31, 2003 Does anyone know if it may be possible in the future to retrofit an existing non relative workshop rig with a skyhook?? I want my mirage to have one... It doesnt look like there would be technical problems...it just sits in between two of the flaps on your reserve..... c'mon relative workshop...license it out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #4 October 31, 2003 At this point, you cannot install the Skyhook on anything but RWS mfg'd. gear. Maybe that will change at some point...we all hope so! As for getting it licensed. RWS has made it clear that the reason they are not making it particularly easy for people to get the Skyhook and install it is that they are worried the product will get a bad name. The reasoning goes like this: RWS sells the Skyhook to some Master rigger who (in this case) installs it on an RWS rig, but does it incorrectly (I'm not sure how you would do that, but it could be done I suppose). The jumper has a mal, the skyhook fails to perform and the public blames the skyhook without having all the knowledge that it was installed incorrectly. That just gets all the more complicated when you start trying to add it to other brand rigs. It seems to me that this is a CYA move by RWS to show the public that the Skyhook works as advertised. Eventually it will be released for field riggers to install it, but if they start to fail in field at that point RWS will be able to say "See, it works when installed correctly. It's not the Skyhook's fault". This is a business, folks, and while it pains me to say so (as a sport jumper), RWS has to look out for their best interests monetarily first. I've had this argument with them before, but it's the way they best believe they can protect their product...I can't say I completely blame them either. The unfortunate truth, as those who work deep in the industry know, there are plenty of very out-of-practice/nearly incompetent riggers out there, both Senior and Master. It's scary, but it's a fact of life...and RWS knows it. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1911 0 #5 October 31, 2003 ""Opening at 600m, bag-lock and cutaway at 150m. He didn't have Cypres. This post is based on report at www.tandemy.sk (in slovak only). Fido"" I guess this guy wished he had a skyhook huh? got this out of a thread on a fatality in the incidents section.When in doubt......Empty the magazine! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 26 #6 October 31, 2003 QuoteI guess this guy wished he had a skyhook huh? sure... but having had reacted quicker to the mal might have also helped. 1500 feet to cutaway is a little long.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #7 October 31, 2003 >c'mon relative workshop...license it out I wouldn't if I were them. Too much chance of a lawsuit. Look at what happened with the Reflex. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #8 October 31, 2003 QuoteLook at what happened with the Reflex. What DID happen with the Reflex (and I'm assuming you further mean by association with Mick/Fliteline)? I was not aware of law suits relative to the licensing out of his patented (meaning the catapult) systems. Maybe you can enlighten me?coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #9 October 31, 2003 >Maybe you can enlighten me? There were several cases of people saying "The catapult almost killed me!" and one case where an investigator claim it _did_ kill the jumper. Turned out to be without basis - the reserve did indeed begin deployment, but the lines of the reserve wrapped so far around the main that it could not fully open. The lawsuit that finally drove them under, though, was not directly related to the Catapult. A jumper sued them when her husband died because a grommet had not been set deeply enough; that problem had previously been seen on several makes of rig. Based on that sort of prevailing attitude (i.e. jumpers are going to sue you if your gear or design causes a problem) it doesn't suprise me that people are more proprietary about the gear they design and sell. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ruffles 0 #10 November 1, 2003 When the skyhook first came out, I asked Bill Booth about getting it on other rigs. He said that the problem isn't so much the lawsuits, but that the phases go something like this: First, otherc ompanies will pooh-pooh it saying it doesn't work. Second, they will try to circumvent the patent and copy it in their own rig Third, they will finally approach Booth about licensing it out and then there's tons of legal mumbo jumbo. Bill said that this process will take a few years. I may get a vector if this true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
webracer 0 #11 November 1, 2003 I am ordering a new Micron, a big change from the Mirage/Javelin stuff I have been loyal to. I even considered the skyhook. I believe in it, especially for low-time jumpers. I don't forsee the need for me personally, and that is my managed risk. If the price for that option wasn't so high though, I probably would have gotten it. It ultimately adds over 10% to the container cost.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #12 November 1, 2003 These suits had NOTHING to do though, specifically with the issue (or any issue arising specifically out of) "licensing" (in of itself) any systems patents out though, as the patents to the best of my knowledge, were in fact never licensed out, correct? I just thought we should be clear about this, as to me, your earlier post impied that the suits were a direct result of licensing, which I don't see in any way, as the direct issue here. If you are referring to concerns that can arise by simply the greater exposure that would result from a wider proliferation of the technology (as a bi-product to it's getting licensed), then sadly, I'm afraid I have to agree. And this is too bad. coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1911 0 #13 November 2, 2003 """It ultimately adds over 10% to the container cost. """ I do not understand why skydivers are penny pinching............it's YOUR LIFE silly! Whats a couple hundred bucks when you might DIE? I guess I'm blessed with a decent job but still, even if I were a broke ass skydiver I would sell crack to get a safer rig.... do I make any sense at all?....it has nothing to do with a skyhook, if you percieve something might one day save your ass would you not buy it? Whatever........When in doubt......Empty the magazine! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casch 0 #14 November 2, 2003 A guard dog might save my ass one day, but I'm not gonna buy one Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #15 November 2, 2003 A Skyhook RSL, which is a $175 option on a Vector, greatly decreases the chance that you will lose your reserve freebag and pilot chute, which costs $195. Not only do you get the fastest (yet softest) reserve deployment possible, you might actually save money in the process. Kinda looks like I shot myself in the foot, doesn't it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sburkart 0 #16 November 2, 2003 QuoteKinda looks like I shot myself in the foot, doesn't it? Well, if this is the way you do it I'll buy the ammo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
webracer 0 #17 November 3, 2003 1911, you are missing the point. I don't need the skyhook to do my work for me. I am really a pennypincher, multiple rigs, a new one every season, Cypres in every rig, la la, la. An aad does nothing until you need it. an rsl type device can cause problems if you use it at the wrong time. The skyhook is designed to (hopefully) eliminate the chance of the rsl causing these problems. I would like to set a good example for the newer jumpers that can benefit from this technology, but I am not willing to pay that much to set the example. I think it is too overpriced as well, but people are buying it. I heard RWS is selling it on almost 75% of their rigs.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casch 0 #18 November 3, 2003 QuoteA guard dog might save my ass one day, but I'm not gonna buy one After re-reading my reply, it sounds a little harsh. I am totally for paying for the Skyhook. It's really not that expensive, at all. But I wanted to express my oppinion that it's OKAY to not buy every single little thing that MIGHT help you one day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #19 November 3, 2003 QuoteKinda looks like I shot myself in the foot, doesn't it? uh.. no... Replace one freebag every several hundreds of cutaways, or add the skyhook to every rig going out on the market. I think your foot will be fine.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #20 November 5, 2003 QuoteWhen the skyhook first came out, I asked Bill Booth about getting it on other rigs. He said that the problem isn't so much the lawsuits, but that the phases go something like this: First, otherc ompanies will pooh-pooh it saying it doesn't work. Second, they will try to circumvent the patent and copy it in their own rig Third, they will finally approach Booth about licensing it out and then there's tons of legal mumbo jumbo. Bill said that this process will take a few years. I may get a vector if this true. Did you know that Eric Fradet patented a similar system ten years ago? QuoteThe reserve parachute will be FULLY OPEN in 80ft. Download this file and check it for yourself: Don't bet your life on it. There is a BIG difference between having an open canopy within 80' of your cutaway main and having an open canopy in 80' TOTAL. And FWIW, having several Sorcerer BASE rig cutaway's with and without a slider (mesh) on the reserve, don't count on having a FLYABLE reserve at that point. Granted, when you get down in the basement that far, all you're looking to do is save your life Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
