New Poster, New to the sport...

[BethUK 0]

I think thats a little unfair! Alot of people successfully pass through Ram Air Progression System Courses (static line). Being president of a University Skydive Club all our students do Static Line and I dont think it's fair to say they just flail around! The students do learn independence and also get more experience in my opinion.

I did AFF at Gap in France and although it was incredible...Id done all 8 levels in 2 days and had my consols 2 days later, I got back and was qualified yet felt as though I wasnt ready to jump on my own back in the UK. It is very easy to feel like this doing AFF. I am very glad I qualified so quickly and it was pretty cheap to do this in France but I do think Static Line students end up qualifying with more experience, especially under canopy. Theres definiate advantages to both...

Just my opinion!

Good luck with whatever you chose to do and I get the impression that having a qualified brother and sister in law will help you immensly, so AFF may be a good option for you...
Beth x

------------------------------------------------------------

"This isn't flying...it's falling with style!" Buzz Lightyear - Toystory 1

[pilotdave 0]

One more thing I didn't add. Take a look at the fatality numbers for static line vs. AFF. A quick search at skydivingfatalities.info reveals that since 1995, approximately twice as many static line students have been killed as AFF students (nearly 3 times as many if you don't count two heart attacks). Most of the static line fatalities were due to horseshoe mals due to unstable deployments. The AFF students usually run into things like moving trucks or hangars.

So, we're both right. AFF students have poor canopy control (or more accurately, get killed when they freeze up and allow the canopy to fly wherever it wants to), and static line students flail around (or get killed when they have unstable exits causing malfunctions).

So, should safety be a factor in deciding which method to use?

Dave

[fudd 0]

I still dont get why static lines is supposed to have better canopy control than AFF. AFF open higher and get more canopy time (same amount of landings).
Won't a student with 15 AFF jumps have better canopy control than a static line student with 15?

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[ChileRelleno 0]

Quote

But the AFF student will be safer in freefall.

Exscuse Me!? But I really must call BULLSHIT!

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

[jumpinfarmer 0]

You already have 11 S/L jumps so why not stick with it. If you switch you will basicly be starting over.
I did AFF but sometimes wish I could've done S/L.

[Shark 0]

Quote

Quote

But the AFF student will be safer in freefall.

Exscuse Me!? But I really must call BULLSHIT!

One is not necessarily safer than the other.

I don't want to slam S/L students, but have you ever jumped with one after they graduated? You could stereotype an S/L student by how severe their backslide was. By contrast, an AFF graduate may backslide less, if he had proper freefall instruction and corrective training. Stable could possibly be considered safer by some.

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

Quote

But the AFF student will be safer in freefall.

Exscuse Me!? But I really must call BULLSHIT!

Two students with equal jump numbers. Lets just say 20 jumps (or whatever jump number a typical static line student starts jumping from full altitude). One's an AFF student, the other is a static line student.

After my 20th jump, I had 17 minutes and 39 seconds of freefall. How many seconds of freefall does the static line student have at that point?

Do you believe their freefall skills are equal at that point? How about their canopy skills. My (possibly totally wrong) belief is that they will have equal canopy skills but the AFF student will have much better freefall skills.

I once talked to a static line student, with about 40 jumps. In case she's reading this, I'm not saying this in a mean way, but just trying to make a point. She was off student status, able to jump solo or with a coach. She had trained (recently) at a very small, old fashioned DZ. She mentioned she was going to a large turbine DZ for her first time soon. She was really scared about jumping from 14,000 feet. I thought that was kind of strange, but I guess when you've always jumped from a 182, 14,000 seems pretty high. But she explained that her problem was she couldn't freefall without spinning. She tried "RW" once, but she was just spinning the whole time. Finally, she was going to a big DZ to take AFF and learn to skydive.

Yeah, I know, one person doesn't prove anything. But how many AFF students, off student status, have problems spinning? I bet she got that problem solved in just a few AFF jumps. How would she ever get it solved by jumping solo over and over again?

And this person was off student status. Not licensed, but the point is, she was completely allowed to get in the plane, fly to altitude, and jump out. Would you be comfortable with her following you out of the plane? Do you not agree that she was less safe to both herself and others than an even mediocre AFF student after 40 jumps?

Dave

[MarkM 0]

Quote

One more thing I didn't add. Take a look at the fatality numbers for static line vs. AFF. A quick search at skydivingfatalities.info reveals that since 1995, approximately twice as many static line students have been killed as AFF students (nearly 3 times as many if you don't count two heart attacks).

Great, now just tell us how many students did SL vs AFF in those years and those numbers might actually be worth a shit.

[Eiley 0]

Quote

she explained that her problem was she couldn't freefall without spinning. She tried "RW" once, but she was just spinning the whole time. Finally, she was going to a big DZ to take AFF and learn to skydive.

Yeah, I know, one person doesn't prove anything. But how many AFF students, off student status, have problems spinning? I bet she got that problem solved in just a few AFF jumps. How would she ever get it solved by jumping solo over and over again?

I don't understand this. Unless the SL program is very different in the US, this student would not have passed her 15 sec / 20 sec / 30 sec jumps towards the A-Licence. Those jumps require controlled turns (360 and 180), backloops, deltas, tracking etc. If she was spinning on any of these jumps, she would have had to repeat and would not be "off student status".

Sounds more like a failure of that particular DZ rather than a failure in the SL system.

Cheers,
Eiley

nothing to see here

[ChileRelleno 0]

Quote

I once talked to a static line student, with about 40 jumps. In case she's reading this, I'm not saying this in a mean way, but just trying to make a point. She was off student status, able to jump solo or with a coach. She had trained (recently) at a very small, old fashioned DZ. She mentioned she was going to a large turbine DZ for her first time soon. She was really scared about jumping from 14,000 feet. I thought that was kind of strange, but I guess when you've always jumped from a 182, 14,000 seems pretty high. But she explained that her problem was she couldn't freefall without spinning. She tried "RW" once, but she was just spinning the whole time. Finally, she was going to a big DZ to take AFF and learn to skydive.

Yeah, I know, one person doesn't prove anything. But how many AFF students, off student status, have problems spinning? I bet she got that problem solved in just a few AFF jumps. How would she ever get it solved by jumping solo over and over again?

And this person was off student status. Not licensed, but the point is, she was completely allowed to get in the plane, fly to altitude, and jump out. Would you be comfortable with her following you out of the plane? Do you not agree that she was less safe to both herself and others than an even mediocre AFF student after 40 jumps?

Quote

Yeah, I know, one person doesn't prove anything. But how many AFF students, off student status, have problems spinning? I bet she got that problem solved in just a few AFF jumps. How would she ever get it solved by jumping solo over and over again?

I think we can agree that practically no AFF students would make it to solo with such problems.
And this woman should never gotten to solo thru Static Line either with such, the blame lays with her Instructors/JM's, the DZ and herself. The Jm's, I's and the DZ are at fault for such poor training and signing her off, they should IMO stripped of their credentials for signing off such a student, She is at fault for not having the responsibility to address the problems while under their tutelage and demand further training to correct her deficiencies.
A few AFF jumps? All the poor woman needed was a JM&I in the air with her, which she should have had in the later stages off her training. I don't have a SIM's handy but don't you have to show the ability to exit, maintain stability, heading, controlled turns, hookup with a JM&I (basic RW) and ect.... Before being signed off? I know I did.
I think AFF would be overkill and a waste of money, IMO, All she needed was some coaching.

Quote

And this person was off student status. Not licensed, but the point is, she was completely allowed to get in the plane, fly to altitude, and jump out. Would you be comfortable with her following you out of the plane? Do you not agree that she was less safe to both herself and others than an even mediocre AFF student after 40 jumps?

I agree she was not safe and shouldn't been off student status.
The DZ she trained at is to blame mostly, its really a shame that some places are so eager to make the money and pass the student that they turn loose jumpers who are a danger to themselves and others.



Alas, I just don't agree with that statement, students regardless of training method pretty much must acquire and demonstrate the same skills in order to graduate to solo.
I acknowledge that some students slip thru the cracks and others are turned out by DZ's without a conscience.
Some students regardless of training style come out with problems, most are easily corrected by more experienced jumpers who are willing to jump with them or by coaches.
But I do not see this lackluster performance in the majority of Static Line students that I've encountered and I love jumping with newbies, its so awesome to see the looks on their face when something clicks or their just having a blast.

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

I love jumping with newbies, its so awesome to see the looks on their face when something clicks or their just having a blast.

Me too. My favorite is to take new A-licensees for their first horny gorilla. They've been working so long on getting their exit just right and getting stable as fast as possible, flipping out of control and falling back to earth is suddenly so much fun. Nothing like seeing that smile!

Dave

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Quote

I love jumping with newbies, its so awesome to see the looks on their face when something clicks or their just having a blast.

Me too. My favorite is to take new A-licensees for their first horny gorilla. They've been working so long on getting their exit just right and getting stable as fast as possible, flipping out of control and falling back to earth is suddenly so much fun. Nothing like seeing that smile!

Dave

Are you sure you know what a "horny Gorilla" is. Last time I looked everyone on the dive had to do the same thing at the same time. Sounds like you are talking about a "fruit loop".
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[crwmike 0]

Quote

to quote myself, "hi, i'm fairly new to the sport, and therefore you should definitely take my advice witha grain of salt"

Hmm, maybe there was a reason I put that there. I was being honest, I know I should have kept my mouth shut but there were other reasons than the "I do it so you should too" line of reasoning. First, I just seemed logical to me. Secondly, I actually did a bit of research about the sport before deciding which route to take myself so I was using that as well. Plus what I've heard from others. OK ok, just wanted to point out that at least I was up front about my inexperience and that you really had no good reason to "bytch" at me. Thanks and blue skies.

Nothing wrong with having little experience ...as long as you dont't give advice because it seems logical or you researched it. Salt is insufficient seasoning.

Michael

[skybytch 259]

Quote

I actually did a bit of research about the sport before deciding which route to take myself so I was using that as well. Plus what I've heard from others

Research = reading and listening to what other people say. Experience = being in the sport long enough to have seen and jumped with graduates of both training methods.

Your opinion appears to be based solely on other people's opinions.

Quote

I know I should have kept my mouth shut

And that's the point I was making. Should someone ask how how hard an AFF Level 3 is from the student's point of view, you have experience in that area and your opinion would be based on that experience - and therefore be more credible than my opinion on the same subject since I've never done a Level 3, I've only talked to people who have.

[champu 1]

I think the areas where graduated students perform better or worse is more specific to the school than the training method. A properly trained student by either approach is going to be competent in freefall and under canopy. Being decent at either is going to take hundreds of jumps, and being good is going to take thousands.

Whichever way you pick you'll be fine as long as you are dedicated to it and take it seriously. I'd recommend against hopping between programs though. The last thing you need as a student is to change a bunch of stuff.

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

Are you sure you know what a "horny Gorilla" is. Last time I looked everyone on the dive had to do the same thing at the same time. Sounds like you are talking about a "fruit loop".
Sparky

I know what a horny gorilla is, but I don't know what a fruit loop is. I'm just talking about 2 or 3 way horny gorillas. It's really easy to get them to work great. Leave the plane with legs locked (for 2 ways, i like to sit in the doorway and just roll right out), holding upper arm grips. Tumble around for a little while, then when you're oriented vertically, let go with the arms and lean back.

What's a fruit loop?

Dave

[Cojimar 0]

I'll be uncurrent when I pick it back up in the spring. I'm a college student so when school started up in September I didn't have much time to jump. I'm looking to get out there in March or April and hopefully be able to finish up pretty quickly since school takes up a lot of time.

As for where I am I only had to re-do one jump and did my first 10 sec. delay.

[Kramer 0]

See if this thread helps.

-Kramer

The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!