Shoul I jump again?

[SkydivingNurse 0]

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Most AFF places (Like here in Zhills) the student just drops the gear off at the packers)

Yeah, I'm guilty of that. I haven't taken any lessons on packing, but when I brought the rig back inside, after going over the dive with my JM I've been watching the person repack it, and asking questions when I thought it wouldn't distract them too much.

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Go to a Cessna DZ for mth and just start with low exits and spotting..By the end of the mth you should be able to spot from 10 grand, and have no problem exiting at 3 grand.

I'm lucky enough to jump at a DZ that has both a C-182 and a KingAir 99. Hopefully this summer I'll get some good practice at spotting and low jumps.

[stuffit 0]

You did say that. I have to agree that AFF is more fun. Some people just feel the need to let you know that they think they are better than you. Dont worry, have fun.

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[MarkM 0]

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I think the majority would agree with me that AFF is better than Static line.

I don't think too many people would disagree with that comment.

SL better: Slow climbing cessnas that circle up to altitude, might as well dump a student or 2 off at 3 grand.
AFF better: Fast climbing turbine, don't want to burn fuel circling around at 3k, might as well throw the student out at 14k with the other jumpers.

But that's what a DZO told me once and he was more into the money side of the equation.

[Ron 7]

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Yeah, I'm guilty of that. I haven't taken any lessons on packing, but when I brought the rig back inside, after going over the dive with my JM I've been watching the person repack it, and asking questions when I thought it wouldn't distract them too much.

Why not learn to pack it? You will be much more comfertable with the gear after you know it.

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I'm lucky enough to jump at a DZ that has both a C-182 and a KingAir 99. Hopefully this summer I'll get some good practice at spotting and low jumps.

why "hopefully"???? DO it. Make it happen try the phrase " I WILL get practice at spotting and low exits!"

It will make you a better, safer jumper.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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I think the majority would agree with me that AFF is better than Static line.

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I don't think too many people would disagree with that comment.

I know plenty that would. The problem is you really don't know much about the program, and I would bet most of the folks that think the same way as you don't either. Or they own a DZ or work for one and know that there is much more money in AFF.

And Im not bitting your head off....You know I just tell it like it is, and so does Chuck.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Kramer 0]

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I know plenty that would. The problem is you really don't know much about the program, and I would bet most of the folks that think the same way as you don't either. Or they own a DZ or work for one and know that there is much more money in AFF.

And Im not bitting your head off....You know I just tell it like it is, and so does Chuck.

Yeah, I definetly see understand what you're saying. I appreciate that message. I'm crabby when I wake up in the morning, and yes, when I made that post at 12:30, I had just woke up.

Thanks Ron, and no hard feelings Chuck. I have a lot of respect for you both.

-Kramer

The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!

[rehmwa 2]

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I don't think you should jump again.

I think you should get married again, and maybe swim with sharks after walking barefoot across the coral, or maybe explore the edge of active volcanos in Teva's and shorts. Do some backwards solo climbing ala Tom Cruise in MI2 as well, and walk the streets of Bagdad in a Boy Scout uniform.

You have no fear. It should be fun. Keep us informed of who your 3rd bitchy ex wife is going to be as well!

FUNNY - Lots of skydivers don't take self ego pumping very well. This guy was just trying to impress the crowd rather than just some kind of impotent posturing. (I hope)


There is nothing wrong with static line. I started static line and finished AFF.

I think most DZs that only offer static line also don't have dedicated packers. That's likely why SL students know how to pack and untangle chutes earlier.

Of course SL is from lower altitudes so these guys are also comfortable with hop and pops.

And spotting is related to both DZ size and training method. Although I don't think it 'should' matter that AFF doesn't teach spotting as well or as early, it happens anyway.

I still think it's hilarious to take a newbie off AFF (turbine DZ) for a RW jump and ask where they are comfortable breaking off and get 4500 ft quoted to me. And this for a jump where they can pull in place if they'd like. Cripes where I started a high exit altitude was 8000 ft.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JJohnson 0]

I'm curious what you think the advantages are of S/L over AFF? S/L lacks the freefall experience....Both can teach spotting early on....other than that I've never put much thought in comparing the two and assumed AFF would be a better learning method.
Why do you say otherwise? Edjumuhkate me.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[Ron 7]

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I'm curious what you think the advantages are of S/L over AFF?

Most AFF programs don't teach packing till later if at all.

I know several folks that graduated AFF that never learned to pack. I tought ALL my S/L students to pack. Some as part of the FJC.

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Both can teach spotting early on

Both can, but few DO.

In SL you have one pass per student, and they are sitting in the door, so it is very easy to teach them to spot. In Big AFF schools they are in the back of the plane, and can't see the door. You really can't teach them to spot, and the pilot will not go around so you can't really teach them to spot. And the pilot will not take corrections anyway. On SL I can have the pilot fly whatever jump run I want, or the student asks for. Try that in an otter/KA at 12,500 feet with loads waiting on the ground.

SL has more canopy control jumps under supervision of the JM or I....What is killing more skydivers Freefall, or canopy control issues?

So, in my experience:

While AFF teaches freefall FASTER. (In SL the jump master starts jumping with you after your 10 second delay). So AFF teaches it FASTER, not better. I would put one of my SL students against any AFF student when they both have 30 jumps.

The SL student will be better at canopy control since I have watched them for 15-20 jumps, not 7-10.

The SL student will be able to pack without going to a "packing class". I teach them early and they pack the rig they are going to jump.

I would put one of my SL students spotting abilities against any AFF students. And 99% of the time I would win.

And my SL students will bail out at 3 grand much faster than an AFF student.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Perky77 0]

Ron, your static line students may be above the average AFF student because of the time you spend with them. If more AFF instructors or coaches spent that level of time with their students, I think AFF would be equal as far as developing canopy skills early, but unfortunately the focus of AFF is more on freefall.
Maybe all this talk about canopy restrictions and required canopy skills training is a really good thing for the whole ISP.

"Sacrifice is a part of life. It is supposed to be. It's not something you regret . It's something to aspire to." Mitch Albom

[Ron 7]

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Ron, your static line students may be above the average AFF student because of the time you spend with them. If more AFF instructors or coaches spent that level of time with their students, I think AFF would be equal as far as developing canopy skills early, but unfortunately the focus of AFF is more on freefall.
Maybe all this talk about canopy restrictions and required canopy skills training is a really good thing for the whole ISP.

Bingo...But with SL the students and instructors speed more time together...Before AFF became reall popular the ISP was not needed...Becasue we spent time with our students....It was not just a jump and quick debrief.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[nbblood 0]

In Reply To
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S/L is outdated training. It is still around but I don't think it will be for long, at least not in the sport industry. AFF or Tandem progression into IAF is the way to go. Some may disagree, but I think you'll find a lot more that agree.

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You find alot of AFF Babies that know nothing about the S/L program don't like AFF.

There is nothing wrong with Static Line..In fact I think it is much better than AFF in some areas.

Most SL kids learn how to pack and spot.
Most SL kids have better canopy control.
Most SL kids are not afraid to leave an Airplane low.

I'm not trying to say there aren't advantages and disadvantages both ways. And I'm certainly not saying that S/L is not a viable way to train.....it is and has been.

AFF programs SHOULD teach things like packing, spotting, canopy control, etc.

Advantages of AFF are immediate feedback and learning in freefall from instructors that were right there rather than just watched from the plane. Learning about load organizing (more at bigger DZs). Familiarity with equipment and deployment methods used after AFF.

I know the S/L program addresses these issues, just in my opinion AFF is better. If someone chooses to use the S/L method, fine, go for it. Keep in mind S/L jumps don't count toward license progression....not that that should be a determining factor....but still a factor. Also, more hazards with equipment, i.e., S/L routing. And I've seen unstable exits turn real ugly in S/L.

Still all methods are certainly valid and worthy of consideration. Just my opinion.

For the record, I have S/L jumps, albeit military ones, and I have exited aircraft from 800 ft, not that I exactly am thrilled about that each time. I did extensive research before choosing Tandem-IAF as my training method and I recommend it. But then again, that's just my opinion. I realize and expect there are other opinions, and certainly more experienced opinions and that's great.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[skysrus 0]

*** It seems to me that you do fear something and it the me that it is the one thing that we all fear "death" so to me all you have to do is try jumping again. Go for it

[Ron 7]

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AFF programs SHOULD teach things like packing, spotting, canopy control, etc.

They should, but most don't. Or don't teach it as well.

Take an AFF student that dies AFF in 7 levels. Then they can jump solo till they have an "A". They were watched landing 7-8 times?

A SL student gets watched 15-20 times.

Which is going to get better canopy instruction...The guy that was coached on 7 or 15 landings?


I have seen VERY few AFF programs teach spotting or packing.

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Advantages of AFF are immediate feedback and learning in freefall from instructors that were right there rather than just watched from the plane.

And here is where you don't know the S/L program. After the 10 second delay the instructor starts jumping with the student.

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Learning about load organizing (more at bigger DZs).

Same at aboth places...I would rather a guy know WHY he gets out where he does, than just listen to the organizer.

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Familiarity with equipment and deployment methods used after AFF

Once of freefall S/L students and AFF students use THE SAME gear...

See what I mean by you don't know the Static line program?

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Keep in mind S/L jumps don't count toward license progression

Uh, yeah they do.

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C. Logging jumps for licenses and ratings

1. Skydives offered as evidence of qualification must have been:


a. made in accordance with the USPA requirements in effect at the time of the jump

b. legibly recorded in chronological order in an appropriate log that contains the following information:


(1) jump number

(2) date

(3) location

(4) exit altitude

(5) freefall length (time) (in this case zero).

(6) type of jump (formation skydiving, freeflying, canopy formation, style, etc.)

(7) landing distance from the target

(8) equipment used

(9) verifying signature

and

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A License

1. Persons holding a USPA A license may jump without supervision, pack their own main parachute, engage in basic group jumps, perform water jumps, and must have-


a. completed 25 jumps

b. completed all requirements listed on the USPA A License Proficiency Card

c. completed five group freefall skydives involving at least two participants

d. received the signature and official stamp on the USPA A License Proficiency Card or USPA A License Progression Card (ISP)

Note: For USPA A-license registration purposes only, USPA Headquarters will accept either completed card signed by a USPA Instructor (signature on file at USPA Headquarters) without the official stamp. The registration fee must be included.

Where does that say FREEFALL jumps?

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For the record, I have S/L jumps, albeit military ones, and I have exited aircraft from 800 ft, not that I exactly am thrilled about that each time.

For the record I was in the 82nd for 3 years.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jannas 0]

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I'm curious what you think the advantages are of S/L over AFF? S/L lacks the freefall experience....

I don´t know how it works over there, but in sweden the sl-program includes frefall from jump nr.7 to nr.25. So i wouldn´t say that people taking this course lacks any freefall experience.
And this goes to those thinking that aff is more fun because of the freefall. Here you get all the fun freefall in the sl-program, only thing is that you have to do those scary sl jumps first and then work your way up higher and higher.

Now I´m wondering how it is that some of you claim that the finnished a-certificate student is just as good no matter what program he/she took. I´m for instance thinking of piloting the chute, how a student finnished after 7 jumps is just as good as one finnished after 25?
Or is it only in sweden the s/l program takes 25 jumps? my turn to be "edjumuhkated"

[MarkM 0]

There are a lot of different training methods that vary in the number of jumps needed to "graduate". But once you graduate from your training you still need to get your A license which has a seperate complete set of requirements. Some of those requirements may be met during your student training, many will not.

[gerrcoin 0]

Most S/L progression courses last about 25 jumps. The static line is only used on about the first 7 or so, depending on competence, and thereafter it's freefall.
To address a various comments in the thread:
1. Canopy control.
The S/L student spends the first 7 jumps under canopy immediately(~3 seconds) after the exit. So their entire jump is mainly concentrated on canopy control whereas the AFF student has to concentrate on so much more during the freefall (keeping track of alt., maintain arch - stable, actually pulling the handle and knowing that it does something {not too many have the unshakable faith in AADs that some of the threads speak of}). The canopy ride after all that is a relief. For the S/L guy the canopy ride is the jump. He is worrying about his exit, the landing pattern and THE DREADED FLAIR (dum,dum,dum...).
But keep in mind that S/L use those big Manta 288s, Navigator 260s or similar. Those things fly so slow (~15mph airspeed) that you quickly learn to judge the wind and your approach so that there really is no need for hard low turns. You realise that you are not going to make the field with altitude to spare and pick an alternate in plenty of time (sometimes). It's unusual for someone who has come through S/L progression at our DZ now to land off field but some experienced AFF guys get caught out every now and again with the uppers.
Then on freefall you step down to 240s, or maybe 220s for the lighter guys (on club gear). But now you will have a student Cypres installed and hard turns below 1500' AGL are out anyway or you will find yourself with two canopies and one red face.
The point being that on S/L you learn the hard way to be ahead of your canopy, give yourself options and not get caught downwind sitting over obsticles and going straight down.
2. Packing
Most clubs encourage S/L students to learn to pack. At my DZ it's mandatory to get a rigger to certify you to pack club gear before clearance for first F/F and on the freefall stage you must pack the rig you jumped or pay someone to pack it for you. There is also some incentive in the form of jump credit for packing student rigs, so that 4 pack jobs equate to 1 lift to 5k. You better believe that most people in the club can pack. AFF sometimes choose not to learn and just pay but that is rare. Most buy their own rig shortly after the course and want to pack it themselves anyway.
So what I'm saying is that most S/L students learn to pack early on and end up packing Manta288s or something equally difficult to get into the bag. OAT is 35 deg F but in the hanger packers are wearing T-shirts, sweaty work. They then pack 240s made from ZP and that takes practice I can tell you. Point is that by the time they get to packing a 200 or 180 ZP main, it's no big deal.
3. Spotting and low exits
This has been well covered. The hop and pop is just like first F/F with a dive exit instead of poised (and without the sweaty palms). It's a big deal for AFF but no problem to the S/L progression guy.
4. Safety
Probably both equal. 1st AFF will deal with all Mals, 1st S/L will only cover some. S/L learn that twists are nothing major whereas some AFF fear them. AFF learn stability quicker (obvious) and high speed openings. S/L makes sure that at least something is over the jumpers head should the worst occur and the progression makes sure that the jumper will pull, and correctly (with dummy handle) before they chuck him out - no strings attached.
5. Cost
Not a huge difference really in the long term unless you are slow on progressing to the next level. In AFF you have to come up with the cash up front, S/L you can spread it out a bit.
The bottom line:
Most people who are serious about taking up the sport will opt for AFF because it gets them where the action is - freefall. Canopy ride can be fun but it's just the thing that allows you to jump more than once. A lot of people I know who started S/L courses have gotten fed up with the slow progression (S/L is way more weather - read wind - dependant than AFF) and have switched. I stuck with S/L. It's a question of personal preference really.

[sabr190 0]

Okay, for the people who no longer have the butterflies before the door opens, raise your hand. I'll wait for the next load.

On S/L v AFF

Both are excellent avenues to experience. Nobody should bash either method.

"The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa

[nbblood 0]

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Both are excellent avenues to experience. Nobody should bash either method.
Fortuna Favet Fortibus

I think this is kind of my point. I'm not S/L bashing and I understand that it is a great way to get into skydiving. Just offering my opinion that AFF is a slightly better method.

Of course, it varies from DZ to DZ and location is probably much more important than method, as quality instructors make all the difference in the world. I personally went through an excellent AFF program at The Ranch in New York and, yes, I've seen the deficiencies that Ron speaks of at other AFF programs, but the instructors I had were excellent and I know I learned spotting, packing, canopy control, etc. As good as S/L? Certainly debatable.....in my opinion, yes. But again, I'm not "bashing" the S/L program, particularly with quality instructors.

Edited to say: Oh yeah, and Ron has much more experience than I, and his opinions and experience are more in depth than mine. I understand that and just wanted to point it out.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[weekendwonder 0]

AFF... S/L... It's all good.

Blues,

Bob

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

[Newbie 0]

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S/L is outdated training. It is still around but I don't think it will be for long, at least not in the sport industry. AFF or Tandem progression into IAF is the way to go. Some may disagree, but I think you'll find a lot more that agree.

You find alot of AFF Babies that know nothing about the S/L program don't like AFF.

There is nothing wrong with Static Line..In fact I think it is much better than AFF in some areas.

Most SL kids learn how to pack and spot.
Most SL kids have better canopy control.
Most SL kids are not afraid to leave an Airplane low.

What is most important? Learning to turn points, or survive?

Today everyone wants it NOW, and AFF gives it to them fast...And thats not always good.

Before AFF was popular there was no need to have ISP or the "coach rating".

Of course you may disagree....But since I have been doing this 10 years, know both the SL and AFF and Tandem progression program, and have tought two of them....Well I would go with mine.

But feel free to think what you like.

Im sick of new jumpers slamming a program they don't understand, just cause its not "cool"

i jhavent yet read through the rest of the posts here, so this point may have already been made. I have been through AFF and i agree wholeheartedly with what Ron just said here.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[goose491 0]

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S/L is outdated training. It is still around but I don't think it will be for long, at least not in the sport industry. AFF or Tandem progression into IAF is the way to go. Some may disagree, but I think you'll find a lot more that agree.

Not outdated, just different. I suggest S/L to anyone I KNOW is going to do well and stick to it. It's faster and cheaper. I suggest Tandem to anyone that just wants to try first. (We don't have any AFF in these parts)

Here in Ontario, it's Cessna land so S/L is popular. I also think you come away from S/L progression with a different mentality. Ask anyone just recently off AFF about their first Hop N' Pop and they'll tell you they shit their pants at how low the plane was. S/L students progress to LOVING hop n' pops... (and a lot of 'em shit their pants on their first high alti... out of excitement)

I would go so far as to say that S/L student make for better canopy pilots in the long run because since Day one, they were alone under canopy (with radio) and of all the skydivers I've met, the S/L ones are always first to shout "Let's do a hop n' pop!" when the clouds won't let you go high.

Anyway, I digress... YES! Jump again, jump all your heart desires
Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I would go so far as to say that S/L student make for better canopy pilots in the long run because since Day one, they were alone under canopy (with radio) and of all the skydivers I've met, the S/L ones are always first to shout "Let's do a hop n' pop!" when the clouds won't let you go high.

I can see the hop n' pop argument (that AFF grads may be more scared than static line grads), but I just don't buy this crap that static line trained people will be better canopy pilots. It just doesn't make sense to me. If I make 20 static line jumps or 20 AFF jumps, I'm still flying and landing my canopy 20 times. Why is it that the static line student all of a sudden is the better canopy pilot? Some people have a knack for flying canopies and some people don't. We're all different ... Maybe if a student trains somewhere where the AFF instructor neglects some basic canopy control training, then this may be the case. But the same can be said if the static line instructor doesn't provide good canopy instruction. In fact, many (not all) static line instructors are not as experienced as their comperable AFF instructors, yet here we are lead to believe that the static line student will be given superior canopy control training? I just don't buy it. We are all different and some people are just better or worse than others under a canopy.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Ron 7]

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I can see the hop n' pop argument (that AFF grads may be more scared than static line grads), but I just don't buy this crap that static line trained people will be better canopy pilots

Simple...

Static line you are under supervision longer than AFF.

AFF you do it right you are done in 7-8 jumps.

S/L it takes 15 or so to be done...On all of those an Instructor is watching you land.

So what would make you better?

7 coach jumps under canopy?

Or 15?

And I will say I trust an S/L students spot much more than an AFF students.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I have seen the odd AFF student who lands better than people with hundreds of jumps. We are all different. Some people have a knack for flying their canopies and some people don't.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over