Make sure you READ the waiver!

[Kennedy 0]

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I guess the question then is, why do you sign your name to a document saying that you will not do that?

It doesn't say that. No where in the document does it include intentional harm done directly to my person. Hence I feel ok suing if a dzo chases me down with a lead pipe while I'm boarding the plane. [stranger things have happened]

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[SkyDekker 1,145]

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See previous post. It IS A LEGAL DOCUMENT. That means I have agreed to what the law says I have agreed to. If the law says I haven't agreed to assume the risk of gross negligence or criminal negligence, then I haven't, regardless of what the words in the waiver might appear to say.

Yes kallend, you are absolutely right about that. However, what Lisa and Bill are saying is that they feel they have given their word not to sue whatever may happen.

You are right that according to the law they could in certain cases and probably win. They feel though that their word supercedes that option.

Personally I agree with Bill and Lisa, but I understand that other people feel differently. It would be interesting to know how many of those people also say or claim that skydiving is safe.

[SkyDekker 1,145]

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It doesn't say that. No where in the document does it include intentional harm done directly to my person. Hence I feel ok suing if a dzo chases me down with a lead pipe while I'm boarding the plane. [stranger things have happened]

I was talking about skydiving related issues.

[Nullified 0]

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Personally I agree with Bill and Lisa, but I understand that other people feel differently. It would be interesting to know how many of those people also say or claim that skydiving is safe.

I also agree 99.9% with them.
However, if a pilot on crack flies the Otter into the hanger on takeoff, you won't find me laying in the burn unit, proudly tapping out in Morse code that I have superior integrity because I won't sue.
By the way, I don't think Skydiving is safe.

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[Kennedy 0]

As I said, whether I sue depends on whether it's skydiving related or whether is somebody intentionally doing me harm on the DZ.

One set is covered by the waiver, but I wouldn't sue for those anyway, and the other is not and you better believe I'll have one hell of a lawyer if they happen
.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[newsstand 0]

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But give me a break a drunk packer is someones responsibility.

Yeah, yours. Nobody made you use a packer. Nobody made you use a packer that you couldn't trust. Most people are perfectly capable of packing their own main parachute. If you flip someone a five-spot and get screwed, well, shame on you.

The rig was left at the DZ for maintenance of some sort. Was packed at a time when the owner was not around. Sure he could have opened and repacked himself but in our normal lives we don't do things like that do we?

Do you take this same attitude in all things in life? If your breaks fail after a break job do you just say, damn I should have done it myself?

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[skypuppy 1]

>I remember a couple years ago one skydiver sued another because
>of a freefall collision. That's ridiculous.

Commonplace now. Skydivers sue gear manufacturers because hard openings damage their canopies or because a poorly set grommet catches a line. Not much different than suing someone who collides with you.
__________________________________________________
Actually I believe you're talking about the case of Gerry ****** vs. Rob Laidlaw in Alberta. In that case I don't think it was Gerry's idea to sue - he suffered brain damage and I believe the suit was brought by his guardians... And incidently, they won...

As I said in the last thread, I don't think you can sign away another's right to sue - even if you could sign away your immediate family's right, what's to stop your uncle, aunt, etc. from suing... The best thing is not to depend on waivers, but to talk to your family... and don't get hurt.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[pilotdave 0]

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It's my responsibility to make sure that my gear is ready, and safe, to jump. Not my packers, not my riggers. Mine.

You've got the FAA's attitude when it comes to aircraft maintenance. The mechanic is responsible to sign off his work at the time the aircraft leaves the shop. After that, it's the pilot's responsibility to ensure the aircraft is safe to fly, regardless of whether or not it's possible for him to know.

So how do you know your rig is safe to jump? If your rigger signs off the repack and then you cut away and find out your reserve wasn't actually connected to your reserve risers, it's then your fault?? You somehow magically should have known? I don't think so.

Now I accept the risk that my sober, professional rigger may have packed a malfunction. I do not accept the risk that my rigger may have packed my reserve drunk or high.

I guess you must borrow skybytch's x-ray goggles she uses to inspect planes before she gets in to inspect your rig before you jump.

Dave

[Jimbo 0]

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After that, it's the pilot's responsibility to ensure the aircraft is safe to fly, regardless of whether or not it's possible for him to know.

I would certainly hope that a pilot knows enough about his aircraft to determine whether or not it is safe to fly. I don't know much about flying, but isn't the preflight check used to determine whether or not the aircraft is ready for flight?

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So how do you know your rig is safe to jump? If your rigger signs off the repack and then you cut away and find out your reserve wasn't actually connected to your reserve risers, it's then your fault?? You somehow magically should have known? I don't think so.

I know that my rigger has thousands of pack jobs and to the best of my knowledge he hasn't made a fatal mistake yet. I have to trust that when he puts his seal on my rig that my rig is airworthy. However, after the seal has been applied, that rig is 100% _my_ responsibility.

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I do not accept the risk that my rigger may have packed my reserve drunk or high.

Get to know your rigger, if you don't have 100% trust in his ability and his professionalism then it's probably time to find a new rigger.

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I guess you must borrow skybytch's x-ray goggles she uses to inspect planes before she gets in to inspect your rig before you jump.

Maybe. I got mine from the back of an old comic book, not sure where she got hers.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[VNugget 0]

Wuffo you jumping outta them airplanes, anyway?

[skybytch 259]

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I guess you must borrow skybytch's x-ray goggles she uses to inspect planes before she gets in to inspect your rig before you jump.

At least I think about aircraft maintainence, and make a guess at how well a plane is being maintained based on my experience - however limited that experience may be and however uneducated that guess may be - instead of blindly climbing on the plane like so many people do.

My "xray vision" inspection may save my ass someday, it may not. I'm okay with that. I accept all aircraft related risks - risks that are obviously out of my control and many of which I lack the knowledge to determine - when I climb on that plane.

Blows me away that I'm getting this much shit from people for my choice never to sue a skydiver after a skydiving related incident.

[SkyDekker 1,145]

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Now I accept the risk that my sober, professional rigger may have packed a malfunction. I do not accept the risk that my rigger may have packed my reserve drunk or high.

I guess you must borrow skybytch's x-ray goggles she uses to inspect planes before she gets in to inspect your rig before you jump.

Or, you do your own research and find out about the rigger you use. If something happens after that, maybe you screwed up the reasearch part?

[SkyDekker 1,145]

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Wuffo you jumping outta them airplanes, anyway?

Excuse me?

[pilotdave 0]

Jimbo:

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However, after the seal has been applied, that rig is 100% _my_ responsibility.

I understand what you're saying. But just because your rigger has never fucked up before doesn't mean he isn't responsible for his first fuckup. I'm not talking about lawsuits, I'm talking about personal responsibility. I am 100% confident my rigger packed my reserve to the best of his ability, and that he actually has the skill required to pack it correctly. But that doesn't make it my fault when he packs it incorrectly. He can still be blamed. And again, I'm not talking about a regular malfunction. I'm talking about negligent packing.

skybytch:

I'm just giving you shit. No offense intended. But my point is the same. A mechanic has determined the aircraft, engines, and systems to be airworthy. The pilot preflights the aircraft looking for obvious problems. A casual glance, well, could catch a major problem, but in reality you're trusting the mechanic and pilot to determine the airworthiness of the plane. They hold more responsibility in that determination than you do. You can choose not to get on a plane because it looks unsafe. But looking safe doesn't mean it is safe, and you have no way of making that determination. Again, not talking about suing anyone here. Just saying you are willing to take the RISK by getting into a plane, but you are not responsible for determining if that plane is safe to get into.

SkyDekker:

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Or, you do your own research and find out about the rigger you use. If something happens after that, maybe you screwed up the reasearch part?

I dunno about you but I don't do a background check and drug test before choosing a rigger. I have to trust other peoples' opinions and my own intuition. I've never even asked to see a riggers license. But all the checking in the world doesn't help when the rigger makes one bad decision. And when he does, it's his fault, not mine. I am trusting him to hand me an airworthy reserve system. If he signs it off as being packed correctly when in fact he packed it under the influence, he is responsible because I have no way of determining the packjob was done incorrectly.


It is very cute to think you can know your rig is safe and take responsibility for it. I think my rig is safe too. But I'm willing to admit that I don't KNOW that my rig is safe. Now I watched my rigger pack my reserve last time it was done. I know he was sober and packed it carefully. If something goes wrong with it, well, shit happens in this sport. My problem. I accept that. But if I had left it with a rigger who packed it full of dirty socks, well, still my problem but his responsibility. If I survived, he'd be lucky if I sued him instead of taking the law into my own hands.
Actually that brings up a good question for those of you that wouldn't ever sue. Would you, assuming you physically could, beat the crap out of someone that deserves to be sued?

Dave

[Kennedy 0]

I don't see why people are giving Dave issues about his stance on a rigger doing something ridiculous like that.

(A) I never signed a waiver saying I wouldn't sue and/or beat ths shit out him for pulling a fandango on me.

(B) I am not allowed to inspect the reserve once he closes it. He says it's safe and I have to take his word for it. You know my solution to the rigger/reseve issue? I watch them pack it. And eventually I'll get myself a ticket so I can pack my own.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kallend 1,647]

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Blows me away that I'm getting this much shit from people for my choice never to sue a skydiver after a skydiving related incident.

I don't think anyone gave you a hard time about your personal decision.

People ARE giving you a hard time for implicitly impugning THEIR integrity, as in the following statement of yours:

"For me this is about personal integrity. When I sign a waiver I feel I am giving my word that I won't sue - period. To me the question isn't "What can I get away with even though I signed this document?" it's "How good is my word?"

Now, you may think whatever you like about what you signed, but when I sign a LEGAL DOCUMENT, I think it means what the law in the governing jurisdiction says it means, and not what the DZO's attorney wants me to think it means.

For a DZO to word a waiver in such a way as to suggest to their customers that they have signed away rights that they haven't signed away is, IMO, UNETHICAL.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skybytch 259]

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People ARE giving you a hard time for implicitly impugning THEIR integrity

That perception was not my intent. I apologize to any who took it that way.

My intent was solely to explain how I think about my signature on a waiver.

Trust me, I'm well aware just how far from perfect I am.

[Vertifly 0]

And Jim, that is only if you are renting it:

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That rig (all of it, including the reserve) is my responsibility from the second I put it on until the second I take it off.

I would argure that, regardless of wearing a rig or not, that YOUR rig is ALWAYS your responsibility. Whether it is getting packed, in your car, on your back, in the closet, whatever!!!

[murps2000 86]

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I can't sue for negligence. That's what it says. Ok. I won't. I probably wouldn't win anyway, so why bother?

I can, however, sue for GROSS negligence, which is a very different thing. The waiver says "negligence" not "gross negligence", which, legally speaking, are two entirely different things.

Actually, in Virginia, you may soon be able to sue a DZ for simple negligence. Nightingale, you obviously have more than barstool knowledge of the law, and this may be of particular interest to you. Check this link out and read section C.

http://www.uspa.org/news/current_news/BILL584.HTM

The proposed bill was initiated by USPA in it's draft form, but it has changed somewhat as I understand it. It is out of USPA's hands, now, and has already passed the Va. house. It's now on it's way to the senate. If passed in it's current form, I think you'll agree, it sets a scary precedent, and could open a pandora's box by establishing a statutory cause of action for negligence.

[livnbored 0]

If I were a judge I'd be like... skydiving... You got hurt skydiving? This person died skydiving? hahahha, get out of my courtroom!!!
But, of course, I watch too much tv....
Sometimes I think we have to wonder what the world is coming to. People seem less and less to want to take any responsibility for themselves. It's like it's everyone elses job to watch out for everyone else. I thought we were supposed to be looking out for number one? When and how the hell did that get twisted around to mean screw everyone else and no one will be left to fuck with you?

[kallend 1,647]

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If I were a judge I'd be like... skydiving... You got hurt skydiving? This person died skydiving? hahahha, get out of my courtroom!!!
But, of course, I watch too much tv....

What if you didn't get to make the skydive because the plane crashed on takeoff due to improper maintenance?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[livnbored 0]

unfortunately, i might not be around for that... depending
But, if the maintenance failed, they'd have to prove it... but we all know that equipment can fail... no matter how good you take care of a plane, it can crash... So, it crashes because it wasn't properly maintained... Well, i'd probably be pissed off a bit, but after I got used to the feeding tube I would wonder what life had in store for me next. See, than to explain this, I'd have to get all spiritual, which I'm not gonna do. Everything happens for a reason. If i could sue everyone for every thing they did that I thought affected me negatively... I'd sue that kid in first grade for repressed trauma, but what if it doesn't affect me negatively.. what if I do live, what if I'm fine, what if I find more reasons to live a fuller life? Why would I want to sue anyone than? Sure I'm not thinking of medical costs if there is a feeding tube, but rest assured, somehow that feeding tube will be there, even if I'm too out of it to know.

[AggieDave 6]

(this is to no one in general)


GET THIS RIGHT!

It isn't a "waiver" it is a "release of liability" which is a MUCH different item.

A waiver implies you are signing away your rights, which is actually illegal.

A release of liability is what you actually sign, which is a contract. Being a contract that is signed and witnessed, it becomes a legal document. What it does is say you are release the DZ of liability if you get hurt/killed.

It does not mean you have "waived" your rights to sue. You can still sue, however, you have signed a document that states you will pay for all the court costs, legal fees, etc. That has stood up in court with a DZ (Precsion's case is a different animal), recently with the SD Las Vegas court case.

Here's the run down: the family sued for gross neglagence, SD Las Vegas gave them 4 opportunities to drop the case and walk away clean from the lawsuit. The family was suing for something like $3,000,000. The family lost, the family lost the appeal, the DZ counter sued for the all the legal fees, etc and won. When the family counter sued the DZ's suit, the family lost, since it was documented that 4 seperate times the DZ gave the family the opportunity to drop the case.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Kennedy 0]

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Sometimes I think we have to wonder what the world is coming to. People seem less and less to want to take any responsibility for themselves. It's like it's everyone elses job to watch out for everyone else. I thought we were supposed to be looking out for number one? When and how the hell did that get twisted around to mean screw everyone else and no one will be left to fuck with you?

Yeah, I totally agree. Riggers need to fess up and take responsibility for their rigging, mechanics need to fess up and take responsibility for their maintenance, pilots need to take responsibility for their flying, etc etc etc.

Got some more silly absolutes you want to throw around?

[for all who missed it, that's sacasm]

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

Why does it seem so hard for peopel to grasp that the chain of legal responsibility is broken by an intervening criminal act, such as theft?

Somebody steals it, it's not your responsibility anymore, unless you somehow facilitated the theft.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*