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pajarito 0
I do brief the student, however, they rarely do exactly what they're supposed to do. I've been doing them since 93 and I haven't broken one yet. I have surfed a couple in my day, though. 
Designer 0
Thanks everybody!When the TM says"OH S**t",what can he really do?The slide,sideways PLF to the left or right really makes sense.Yeah,that is why you also make the big bucks.Tough Job!TY again.
gjhdiver 0
QuoteKeep your bullshit responses to the talkback forum please. We do not tollerate one-liners and facetious answers in the topical forums.
Chuck Blue
D-12501
Do try to be less self important.
That was a genuine reply to the question. If you don't like it, feel free to ignore it. However, if you don't want candid answers to questions, then you shouldn't be posing them.
QuoteKeep your bullshit responses to the talkback forum please. We do not tollerate one-liners and facetious answers in the topical forums.
Chuck Blue
D-12501
I see nothing funny about his reply. For thirty bucks I am not likely to break myself for someone I dont know who who would more than likely sue me in a heartbeat on a good day. YMMV.
I might take a bullet for a good friend who might do the same for me but not for someone off the street who more than likely wont remember my name in a week.
ETA. In over 2000 tandem jumps I have had only one broken tandem passenger. 5'2" 220lbs. Stuck a foot out and broke her ankle.
It never ceases to amaze me the people who wouldnt put down their bag of Oreos and get off the couch to walk around the block that think they they can just whiz out to the DZ and make a skydive.
A tandem instructors job IS NOT to get hurt for the student. Its to provide the oportunity to experience freefall. The student MUST be able to participate to complete the jump safely.
DZOs and other people have lost sight of this.
Skydiving IS NOT A WALK IN THE PARK. IT IS AN INHERENTLY DANGEROUS ACTIVITY!
Edited again to add:
This is my briefing for landing, word for word:
"When we get to a thousand feet, I will take over for the landing. If you're going to get hurt, this is probably where it will happen. If you listen to me and do what I tell you, your chances of getting hurt get a little bit less." Then I explain what I want them to do on landing.
I look them in the eyes when I say that and I mean it.
Lots of experience highly trained skydivers get hurt landing and they are just as at risk as we all are.
Make no mistake, I take as much care of myself on a tandem as I do on a solo skydive, but when you accept the responsibility of doing tandem skydives you are also responsible for the safety of your passenger. Simply stating that you are going to pile in on top of a tandem student and not give a shit is incredibly callous. I see that a lot in people who have simply done too much of one thing and for whatever personal reason just stop caring. If you do not feel that you are equally responsible for the safety of your tandem (or AFF) student, then perhaps you need to find something else to do. Lord knows there are easier ways to make $30. Your 2000 tandems versus my 500 mean nothing if you have stopped caring for the ultimate safety of your passengers. In my past line of work we did tandems as a means of delivering packages and assets to the ground safely. Getting those packages to the ground was ultimately more important than my "taxi service". My opinion, but what the fuck do I know; I have only been jumping 23 years.
Chuck
Chuck
gjhdiver 0
QuoteMake no mistake, I take as much care of myself on a tandem as I do on a solo skydive, but when you accept the responsibility of doing tandem skydives you are also responsible for the safety of your passenger. Simply stating that you are going to pile in on top of a tandem student and not give a shit is incredibly callous.
Chuck
Nonsense. It's just honest. As the previous poster said, for $25, I'm not going to place myself in a situation where I'm going to generate thousands of dollars in injury. Does that mean I deliberatly hurt them or go out of my way to expose them to danger ? No. I have so many tandems that I have lost count in 8000 jumps, but if the passenger decides to ignore me and stick their legs down on the landing, I'm not about to try to hoist them back up in the last two feet and break my leg doing so. I have a living to earn, and if drop zones were not still paying the same for tandems as they were when I got the rating in '89, and offered decent medical, then the situation might be different.
When you do a tandem, you're exposed to a huge risk, from the behavior of the passenger, to the complexity of the system. I've learned that the best way to ensure a safe skydive is to take care of yourself first and fly the system protectively, just like you would as the pilot of an aircraft. That way, everybody has the best chances of survival when things go wrong. When something goes wrong for me on a skydive, pure self interest is what drives my actions, and by a consequence, the passenger benefits from that.
pajarito 0
QuoteNonsense. It's just honest. As the previous poster said, for $25, I'm not going to place myself in a situation where I'm going to generate thousands of dollars in injury. Does that mean I deliberatly hurt them or go out of my way to expose them to danger ? No. I have so many tandems that I have lost count in 8000 jumps, but if the passenger decides to ignore me and stick their legs down on the landing, I'm not about to try to hoist them back up in the last two feet and break my leg doing so. I have a living to earn, and if drop zones were not still paying the same for tandems as they were when I got the rating in '89, and offered decent medical, then the situation might be different.
When you do a tandem, you're exposed to a huge risk, from the behavior of the passenger, to the complexity of the system. I've learned that the best way to ensure a safe skydive is to take care of yourself first and fly the system protectively, just like you would as the pilot of an aircraft. That way, everybody has the best chances of survival when things go wrong. When something goes wrong for me on a skydive, pure self interest is what drives my actions, and by a consequence, the passenger benefits from that.
That's bullshit. It's not about the money. Your primary concern on a tandem jump should be your passenger. That person is willingly putting their life in your hands and that is a huge responsibility. The student doesn't have a clue as to what they are doing. You do. The student is going to do stupid things and probably won't do half of what you tell them to do. It's just because they've never been in that kind of a stressful situation before. Like you on your first jump. It is up to you to do everything in your power to get them to the ground safely. Aside from the limited teaching that may be involved, that is what being a tandem instructor is all about. If the passenger wasn't my primary concern, I would feel the need to stop doing tandems.
douwanto 22
When a passenger puts their feet straight down or is not willing to do what is needed to help them self then I cant do much else.
I try to assess each passenger to see if they can perform and even have them sit on a table and lift their legs for 5 seconds just to give me an idea of their strength. I have had people who cant get their legs up in the new Sigma harness now thats bad.
There are ways to minumize injurie such as butt slides but if the passenger wont or cant lift their feet on a no wind landing I just try to minumize the load I transfer to them when we go over.
They are my responsibility that doesnt mean I will break myself with them. My job is to make their skydive and landig as safe as I possibly can.
You stick your hand in a meat grinder and I will try to pull you out but I aint stickin my hand in with you.
Chris
Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421
I try to assess each passenger to see if they can perform and even have them sit on a table and lift their legs for 5 seconds just to give me an idea of their strength. I have had people who cant get their legs up in the new Sigma harness now thats bad.
There are ways to minumize injurie such as butt slides but if the passenger wont or cant lift their feet on a no wind landing I just try to minumize the load I transfer to them when we go over.
They are my responsibility that doesnt mean I will break myself with them. My job is to make their skydive and landig as safe as I possibly can.
You stick your hand in a meat grinder and I will try to pull you out but I aint stickin my hand in with you.
Chris
Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421
QuoteWhen a passenger puts their feet straight down or is not willing to do what is needed to help them self then I cant do much else.
I try to assess each passenger to see if they can perform and even have them sit on a table and lift their legs for 5 seconds just to give me an idea of their strength. I have had people who cant get their legs up in the new Sigma harness now thats bad.
There are ways to minumize injurie such as butt slides but if the passenger wont or cant lift their feet on a no wind landing I just try to minumize the load I transfer to them when we go over.
They are my responsibility that doesnt mean I will break myself with them. My job is to make their skydive and landig as safe as I possibly can.
You stick your hand in a meat grinder and I will try to pull you out but I aint stickin my hand in with you.
Chris
Tandem instructors are not hired martyrs. Body guards do that and get paid well for it. I do my best to get them to the ground safely but if they cant do their part I aint taken a break for anyone.
AFF instructors stop gettin paid at two grand. A taxi driver is not paid to jump into a burning taxi after an accident and I'm not paid to break my leg for anybody.
Skydiving is a dangerous and risky endeavor. You pay your money, you take your chances.
If you want a nice safe existence, stay home on your couch with your bag of cheetos and your remote.
If you want to skydive the simple reality is that you can get hurt or killed. Take it leave it but dont ask me to break myself because you are to fat or old or lazy to do your part. If you cant accept that, stay the F home.
lug 4
I have been a few time about 10’ to 15’ and came crashing down. We are usually set for landing, student feet are above mine with both of our knees bent. My feet touched first then the students we both absorbed as much as possible before the ass ground contact. I once did sudo PLF drop and role, but our momentum was going in the right directions. The helper was the canopy was drifting sideways just enough. As for teaching PLF I think it would be vary difficult to perform in real situation so its not worth it.
As for placing my own safety above the students, I believe that is a conceited act if done on purpose where the student is doing eveything right. If I ever developed that mentality, to where the money is worth more then the student’s safety then I would stop doing tandems and get a real job.
As for placing my own safety above the students, I believe that is a conceited act if done on purpose where the student is doing eveything right. If I ever developed that mentality, to where the money is worth more then the student’s safety then I would stop doing tandems and get a real job.
Memento Mori
QuoteThat's bullshit. It's not about the money.
Yes it is. Tandem is all about the money. That's why you have to take care of the passenger;because you took the money.
If you think the've had too many cheetos and can't protect themselves on landing, then you have to refuse to take them. Is there a limit to what you are obliged to do in the air to protect them? Yes, I suppose there is. But if that limit is crossed before you leave the ground, you cannot, as a professional, get in the plane.
QuoteQuoteThat's bullshit. It's not about the money.
Yes it is. Tandem is all about the money. That's why you have to take care of the passenger;because you took the money.
If you think the've had too many cheetos and can't protect themselves on landing, then you have to refuse to take them. Is there a limit to what you are obliged to do in the air to protect them? Yes, I suppose there is. But if that limit is crossed before you leave the ground, you cannot, as a professional, get in the plane.
You missed this part of my post:
QuoteA tandem instructors job IS NOT to get hurt for the student. Its to provide the oportunity to experience freefall. The student MUST be able to participate to complete the jump safely.
DZOs and other people have lost sight of this.
Skydiving IS NOT A WALK IN THE PARK. IT IS AN INHERENTLY DANGEROUS ACTIVITY!
I dont know how many times I have seen skydivers bring their old, fat and frail parents, siblings, friends out for a skydive. If the DZ takes their money and sends them out to me I dont have much choice except to take a walk and find a new job.
The simple fact of the matter is some people shouldnt be jumping out planes and if they insist on doing so their chances of getting hurt go up, not mine.
Would you take your 75 year old Mom/Gramma out for a game of touch football? No. I wouldnt either.
You're right. It IS ABOUT THE MONEY. DZ's for the most part routinely refuse to turn anyone away from doing a tandem whether or not they are fit enough.
Tandem skydiving isnt far removed from regular skydiving but people who would never be allowed to jump on their own are routinely allowed to jump tandem and you expect me to get hurt for them.
I give them every opportunity to survive the jump on their own but I will not get hurt for anyone.
I am already risking my life for their entertainment.
gjhdiver 0
Quote***That's bullshit. It's not about the money. Your primary concern on a tandem jump should be your passenger. .
Nope. My primary concern on a tandem is my safety, and by extension, the passengers. As a professional, it's certainly about the money. Do you work for nothing ? That $25 buys them my considerable experience. It doesn't buy my health or future.
Look at the tandem waiver video closely sometimes. The passenger gives up all right to sue for even deliberate negligence on the part of the operator.
I've been doing tandems since 1989, and to date, not one passenger has taken an injury or complained on my watch. Just because I'm not going to sugar coat the reality of doing tandems for a living doesn't mean that I don't do them correctly.
pajarito 0
In response to gjhdiver:
I skydive because I love it. I do tandems because I like to see others, who might not skydive otherwise, enjoy it like I do. I definitely do not only do it because I’ll make $25-30. I’ve got a real job to make money. I take care of my passenger, not because “I took their money” but because I’ve got a human being attached to the front of me who’s put their trust in me that I’ll get them to the ground safely. Yes, they assume a risk to perform the activity. Yes, they sign a waiver that says the give up their rights and won’t sue (good luck on selling that to a jury). Yes, they might freak out and not do what you tell them to do. There might not be anything you can do about it. I personally, however, would risk a scratch or two to ensure their safety. Not for monetary reasons but for personal ones. Of course, I’m not going to put my life in danger. Not only because I like to live but because my living directly corresponds to them living at that point. When I used to do a lot of static-line instruction, I had a female student that didn’t get out far enough on the strut of a C-182. When she let go, her arm hit the step and it hurt her. She didn’t quit and went right back up. The next time, despite me telling her that she needed to get further out, she didn’t do what I told her. While controlling the static line all the way to her container with my right hand, I covered the step with my left arm just in case. She hit my arm instead of the step. I agree that there’s a limit to what you’re able to do in order to protect your passenger. I just think you should do everything in your power because they’re your responsibility when you take on the roll of tandem instructor. And yes, I sometimes do work for nothing. It’s not work to me. I guess I’m just in it for different reasons.
In response to burbleflyer:
I took my 72 year old Mother-in-law on a tandem over the Thanksgiving holidays. I evaluated her beforehand and decided that I could accommodate for anything she might not be able to do. We made the jump, it went perfect, and she loved it. As a tandem instructor, I would make the decision and not rely on the DZ to just send me people in order that I make $25-30.
I skydive because I love it. I do tandems because I like to see others, who might not skydive otherwise, enjoy it like I do. I definitely do not only do it because I’ll make $25-30. I’ve got a real job to make money. I take care of my passenger, not because “I took their money” but because I’ve got a human being attached to the front of me who’s put their trust in me that I’ll get them to the ground safely. Yes, they assume a risk to perform the activity. Yes, they sign a waiver that says the give up their rights and won’t sue (good luck on selling that to a jury). Yes, they might freak out and not do what you tell them to do. There might not be anything you can do about it. I personally, however, would risk a scratch or two to ensure their safety. Not for monetary reasons but for personal ones. Of course, I’m not going to put my life in danger. Not only because I like to live but because my living directly corresponds to them living at that point. When I used to do a lot of static-line instruction, I had a female student that didn’t get out far enough on the strut of a C-182. When she let go, her arm hit the step and it hurt her. She didn’t quit and went right back up. The next time, despite me telling her that she needed to get further out, she didn’t do what I told her. While controlling the static line all the way to her container with my right hand, I covered the step with my left arm just in case. She hit my arm instead of the step. I agree that there’s a limit to what you’re able to do in order to protect your passenger. I just think you should do everything in your power because they’re your responsibility when you take on the roll of tandem instructor. And yes, I sometimes do work for nothing. It’s not work to me. I guess I’m just in it for different reasons.
In response to burbleflyer:
I took my 72 year old Mother-in-law on a tandem over the Thanksgiving holidays. I evaluated her beforehand and decided that I could accommodate for anything she might not be able to do. We made the jump, it went perfect, and she loved it. As a tandem instructor, I would make the decision and not rely on the DZ to just send me people in order that I make $25-30.
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My other ride is a RESERVE.
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