Transition question

[Raistlin 0]

To shun away the "have him talk to their instructor" answers, the instructor says "go if you feel like it, I think you can handle it". :)

Basically, a low-jump friend has been jumping a Spectre 190 at 1.19 and been fine. I think he's got around 30 jumps at this point, with at least 5 on said Spectre, in nil and very low winds. What he is having doubts about, is going to his own Sabre2 170 (at 1.33 respectively). Problem is that the Spectre 190 is not rental and not going to be available for some time (the owner going on vacation), and the only rental canopy, a Hornet 210 (1.08), he lands no problem.

He is either going to have to wait a few weeks to jump the Spectre 190 a few times again, or go with his Sabre2 170. I said I'd ask the DZ.com folks what they think about it...

The DZ is pretty small and nobody else jumps anything 190 there - a few 150s and a 230...

[quade 3]

Very few people have ever killed themselves by jumping a slightly larger than required canopy.

Quite a few have killed themselves by jumping a smaller canopy than they could handle.

Seems like a pretty easy choice to me.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Dougiefresh 0]

So he's jumped 5 times on his current rig and wants to downsize?

Let me know when he's gonna do it, I'll come watch him bounce when the winds pick up.

Stick with the Hornet until the dude gets back from vacation, this sounds like disaster waiting to happen.

But if the instructor trusts him, then what do I know.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams

[lummy 4]

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I'll come watch him bounce when the winds pick up.

He'd probably do fine on a windy day, it's the hot summer no wind day that'll be the femur breaker (IMO)

I'd say if he has doubts, he should probably follow his gut and go big

I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1

[GravityGirl 0]

Wow! That's a neet little attitude you got there Dougiefresh. Not very constructive.

But in fact, I do agree with sticking to the 210 until the 190 returns. The summer has just begun. It sounds deep down he already knows the answer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[bch7773 0]

I'm just concerned about going 1.33 at 30 jumps. especially since its a sabre2, which may only be semi-eliptical, but it will lose altitude in turns much faster then a lighter loaded spectre.
If him and the instructors feel comfortable with him jumping the 190, why doesn't he demo a 190 spectre or sabre2 from PD?

MB 3528, RB 1182

[slotperfect 7]

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Let me know when he's gonna do it, I'll come watch him bounce when the winds pick up.

This kind of attitude when replying to a post doesn't contribute to the conversation at all. There are many other ways of conveying a strong opinion (lots of those here in the forums) without being rude.

Assuming your profile is up to date, at less than 100 jumps you are likely still learning the canopy you are flying yourself. Also, you are flying a canopy that is the same size as the original poster's friend's current canopy, and missed out on a perfect opportunity to give helpful advice from your own downsizing experience.

Arrive Safely

John

[Raistlin 0]

"why doesn't he demo a 190 spectre or sabre2 from PD?"

Stupid ocean gets in the way, y'know :p

So going from 1.19 on a 7-cell to 1.33 on a 9-cell is too risky I guess? My own transition to Hornet 170 at the exact same wingloading, at about 50 jumps, was marked by a few landings on concrete which accounted for bruised palms, knees, elbows, and ego... though frankly I don't see how one could break leg if they made no stupid low turn close to the ground (that's exactly why I landed on concrete - I didn't want to turn 60 ft up and the canopy was going faster than expected). The main problem seems to be the proper flare, which at worst results in that you flare too early / too jerkily and don't have a stand-up landing.

Looks like he gets to jump the 210, and I get to jump his sweet rig as backup meanwhile :)

Thanks everybody for the answers and patience, as it's been discussed to death before.

[slotperfect 7]

At 30 jumps, with only 5 jumps on his current canopy, he should go back to the Hornet 210 until his rental Spectre 190 comes back. He needs to be patient and learn the 190 well before moving on to something else. Crawl, walk, run. Your friend should read billvon's downsizing checklist, get training from his instructors on each segment, and get good at each segment before moving on.

For comparison, I load my own Sabre2 190 at 1.33, and I have over 3000 jumps. I am a bit more conservative than most at my weight and skill level, for these reasons:

-much of my jump experience has been on big, non-ZP canopies (military canopies, tandems, etc.)
-this Sabre2 is the first all ZP canopy I have ever owned.
-my work canopy is a Silhouette 210 (I need to land it at night at a DZ that's 1900 FT). I can fly both canopies nearly the same way and achieve the same very swoopy result. I land both using a 90-100 degree front riser carving turn.

When I bought the Sabre2 I intended to move on to a higher performance canopy at some point. I am almost at that point now. I have almost 100 jumps on this Sabre2. My plans? I printed billvon's checklist last weekend . . . even though I have performed each segment but one with this canopy, I'm gonna start from scratch and use it as a training tool, then go to a Stiletto 190 (higher performance, same size). I plan to put 100-150 jumps on it, then consider downsizing to a 170, which would I would load at 1.47.

Hopefully that will put your friend's downsizing ideas in perspective.

Arrive Safely

John

[nbblood 0]

My first canopy was a Spectre 190 loaded at 1:1. My next, and current canopy, is a Sabre2 170 loaded at about 1.2:1. I noticed a tremendous difference in going from one to the next. It is a downsize and a planform change.

I downsized at over 100 jumps and in retrospect feel it was about the right time, but if I had it to do again, I would've put 50 more jumps on the Spectre and gone through Billvon's checklist again. Like John, I tend to err on the conservative side.

I'm not gonna say what's right or wrong cause I just don't think it's my place, just thought I'd relate my experience as I did the exact same transition.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[Unutsch 0]

well, i've made a bit more drastic transition (from a Raider 220 to Ace 100 @ 1.6), with some 150 jumps under my belt... i know it may look stupid to someone, but i am still alive with no injuries and can post a reply with some advice for your friend...

the most important advice comes from one of my instructors: the landing starts the same moment your canopy opens...
the other are:
- take it easy, and then when you think you're on the safe side, take it even more easy;
- he should learn all there is about flat turns...
- and he should never forget how fragile human bones are

have fun and stay safe

Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation:
http://www.padliangeli.org

[Raistlin 0]

As noted before, I went 1.3 at 50 jumps and frankly stayed quite fine. The only two scenarios I can envision in which a broken leg might be expected are:

1) a low turn close to the ground (no comments - gotta avoid those),
2) a way too early flare that throws you up and slams you into the ground (happened to me - I flared a couple feet too high / too hard - got bruised in a few places)

Am I missing something here?

[AggieDave 6]

Well, 30 jumps and going at a 1.33:1 wingloading is kinda a stretch of imagination and I'm NOT very conservative with canopy downsizing and haven't been since the first chance I had.

Basically, it seems like a bad idea, but this is coming from someone who doesn't know the story, the person, etc. At 30 jumps, if a student asked me about that, even a "prodigy" I'd have a very very hard time saying "go ahead." At the same time, him being on a 170 loaded at 1.3 isn't the same as being on a 120 loaded at 1.3, its still kinda high for 30 jumps, though.

Summary: Bad idea, have him jump the 210 and tell him he has to have atleast 75% accuracy (in the peas) to prove he's a good canopy pilot.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[nbblood 0]

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As noted before, I went 1.3 at 50 jumps and frankly stayed quite fine. The only two scenarios I can envision in which a broken leg might be expected are:

1) a low turn close to the ground (no comments - gotta avoid those),
2) a way too early flare that throws you up and slams you into the ground (happened to me - I flared a couple feet too high / too hard - got bruised in a few places)

Am I missing something here?

I think you see the end result of a set of circumstances. These are the last things that happen. What you don't reference is any of the circumstances that led to this.

Things happen at a faster pace under a higher wingloading and a higher performance planform. There is less time to think and react.

Situations that often lead to bad decisions are bad spots resulting in landing out. Obstacles in landing areas. Traffic from other canopies, etc., etc., etc.

Yes the actions you described are what causes the damage, but the question is, what led to those actions by the jumper.

Bottom line, jumper needs to be ready to react faster.

Just things to think about. I'm still not gonna say what's right or wrong.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[pilotdave 0]

I just don't understand why someone with 30 jumps WANTS to jump such a highly loaded canopy. Is that hornet 210 really THAT boring? I jumped PD230s until I bought my own PD150 (loaded around 0.86) at somewhere around 40 or 50 jumps. I downsized to a wingloading of about 1.05 or so at about 130 jumps or so. And I can't see a single reason why I'd want to go to a higher loading anytime soon. I'm nowhere near maxing out the performance of my canopy, and don't plan to try to. This canopy flies so much faster than my old one, and comes down MUCH faster.

I found out the hard way on my last jump that I have very little time to deal with any problems with this canopy. Everything happens very fast. (Brake unstowed on opening, recovered from the spiral too low to make the DZ. Realized at about 1100 feet my left brake line wouldn't move past my shoulder. Attempted a rear riser flare and probably came close to breaking a leg). And it's a fairly lightly loaded sabre2. No jump on this canopy has been boring yet, and no jump on my PD150 was boring either.

So, smack your friend upside the head and tell him not to even think about jumping the smaller canopy. And ask him what the fuck he's even considering it for.

Dave

[tonyhathaway 0]

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though frankly I don't see how one could break leg if they made no stupid low turn close to the ground (that's exactly why I landed on concrete - I didn't want to turn 60 ft up and the canopy was going faster than expected). The main problem seems to be the proper flare, which at worst results in that you flare too early / too jerkily and don't have a stand-up landing.

If you don't see how you could break a leg......you obviously haven't seen too much. One of the video guys here hasn't been jumping for 2 weeks because he twisted his ankle. He has 9000 jumps and 5-6000 on this size canopy. Nothing out of the ordinary when he landed. Shit happens. 5 bucks says the person here in question goes with the downsizing. In this type of scenario, they almost always do. -Tony

My O.C.D. has me chasing a dream my A.D.D. won't let me catch.

[slug 1]

Tony

You only got 11,000 jumps your pictures been published in national pubs maybe international.

What the hell do you know?????? (Joke)

Downsizeing is cool and where it's at, plus the guy's got a cypress that can save his life from a low pull . IOW the dudes young and dumb wants to play like the big boys Hope he don't hurt himself to bad

R.I.P.

[jose 0]

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1) a low turn close to the ground (no comments - gotta avoid those),
2) a way too early flare that throws you up and slams you into the ground (happened to me - I flared a couple feet too high / too hard - got bruised in a few places)

Am I missing something here?

Yeah, a profile to start......

And really, in the end, what could a couple weeks of accuracy work towards another rating hurt. He should really take the opportunity to check off a bunch of canopy flying and landing skills for the future. Make a game of it, like put a soccer ball on a pylon and try to kick it. Of course if he feels that he can handle the ball and landing at the same time.......then again....maybe not a good idea for 30 jumps.... Got a tuffet? Drag that out for him and let him at it..... All is see is opportunity to learn new things that would be unsafe under a smaller canopy. Like landing from brakes so he knows how that works. Landing right out of a half brake turn....its saved my ass several times when getting cut off.

I think you get the point. And really, put up a profile already, it gives credibility.

Later