DOCsa 0 #1 September 27, 2004 hey there i was wandering which one i should do go and jump with an instructor to get better at rw or to go to a wind tunnel for half an hour and jump with an instructor there ? please help I need to choose soon thanx for you support in advance oh and by the by i suck at rw _________________________________________ SO many places to jump so little time ! _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #2 September 27, 2004 Ok, this is just -me- talking, but . . . canopy coaching. I'm not talking about monster swoop coaching. I'm talking about basic, fly the pattern, land accurate and standing up coaching. Try it the next time you're at the DZ. With what level of certainty can you touch down and stop standing up inside a 20 meter wide circle? 9 times out of 10? Seriously, try it and find out. You can learn to fly your body any time, but unless you can reliably fly your canopy safely and accurately, you might not get the chance. Then again . . . that's just me. edited to add . . . Oh and I forgot to -directly- answer your question of tunnel or jumping. Unless you have a tunnel right at the DZ or at least within driving distance, I vote for jumping. The money spent on travel would buy quite a few jump tickets and you get a lot more practice flying your canopy during actual jumps than inside the tunnel. That's not to say that tunnel time isn't a very valuable training tool. If you have one nearby -- take advantage of it! However, I think there is simply too much emphasis placed on flying your body early on in a lot of people's jumping careers and not enough emphasis placed on flying their canopy.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #3 September 27, 2004 ditto, granted that I've never been in the WT. I would like to go sometime to polish up my skills but as a beginner it might lead to a false sense of security. You got 20 jumps, FF like 200, and still no canopy skills. You see where I'm going...Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #4 September 27, 2004 ***Ok, this is just -me- talking, but . . . canopy coaching Then again . . . that's just me ===================================== Nope, not just you, I agree 100%. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #5 September 27, 2004 If I was local to a windtunnel I would use it occasionally. But since I would have to travel about ~900 miles to get to one I would vote for more jumps. It is amazing to me how overemphasized tunnel training is getting. Personally I think overdosing on tunnel as a newbie skydiver is akin to taking a high-performance driving school when you only have a learner's permit. Sure you can get some benefit from the experience but not as much as if you wait until you have a better grasp of the sport as a whole. It amazes me at how many highly skilled RW-ers out there I see tumbling across the desert after biffing their landings... I would guess many of them have more tunnel time in minutes than actual skydives. That said, I appreciate the advantage the tunnel can give you in that you can work on freefall skills in a safe, controlled environment.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DOCsa 0 #6 September 27, 2004 I have my FIA B license i did all my landing within the circle ,so canopy control ain't to bad but I was thinking if i hop on the eurotrain go to paris windtunel for half and hour then start jumping again that would be better ? it'ss cost ab out £200 so people tell me so that ain't bad ? _________________________________________ SO many places to jump so little time ! _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #7 September 27, 2004 I think a canopy course is also a good idea, but for learning RW, I'd say go to the tunnel. There are things you can't learn in the tunnel... exits, diving, tracking, etc, which are all a very big part of RW. You could spend some jumps with an experienced RW coach working on those sorts of things. But the tunnel is GREAT for learning about fallrate, turns in place, sidesliding, etc. Get a good coach in there... it makes a HUGE difference, especially if you want to do a whole hour. Also might wanna split that hour up into a few shorter sessions. The tunnel is very tiring and it's hard to get a good debriefing while wating your turn to get back in. It's more useful to get all the way out, get a video debriefing, think about what you learned, and get back in nice and refreshed. If you want to work on a particular RW skill in freefall, for example keeping eye contact during turns, you might have a bad exit and spend half the jump just getting close to your coach. In the tunnel, you're able to concentrate on one skill for as long as you're in there. One minute in the tunnel can mean a lot more "working time" than one minute of freefall. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xavenger 0 #8 September 27, 2004 > It amazes me at how many highly skilled RW-rs > out there I see tumbling across the desert after > biffing their landings... I would guess many of > them have more tunnel time in minutes than > actual skydives. Yup. I have more than 18 hours in the tunnel .. I'm pretty good in freefall .. plus I have .. a broken tib, broken fib, broken foot, broken knee, damaged ankle (I'm not joking). That tunnel thing never did help me with my landings. ;-) In response to the original poster, the tunnel is a great place to learn certain freefall skills and it's great fun - but it doesn't help you land your canopy safely and that's the bit that really counts. Go to Deland in FL and see Scott Miller for some canopy coaching .. or ask around at your DZ and find someone clued up who can do something similar. The freefall skills are cool - but so long as you're stable when you pull .. you can track .. and are not all over the place .. that's all it is - it's "cool" .. Flying and landing that there canopy is what counts. Get to the tunnel if you can (also soon after you'll need to learn about debt management), get some real in-air RW coaching, get both if you can - but as a newbie skydiver remember that nothing is more important than canopy control. regards James :-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #9 September 27, 2004 wow, someone agreed with me for once... NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daveb 1 #10 September 27, 2004 Quote hey there i was wandering which one i should do go and jump with an instructor to get better at rw or to go to a wind tunnel for half an hour and jump with an instructor there? Do both! If you must choose, choose jumping, but there is almost always a way to do both. You got in the sport to skydive, and if you're on really limited funds, put them towards what you value most. The tunnel is a most excellent tool to improve your skydiving, and I highly recommend its use. But skydiving it ain't, and if I had to choose only one, I'd jump (then beg on the corner to fund some tunnel time). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #11 September 28, 2004 Quote In response to the original poster, the tunnel is a great place to learn certain freefall skills and it's great fun - but it doesn't help you land your canopy safely and that's the bit that really counts. I just spent the weekend on a really good one (Germain's), BUT THAT WASN'T THE QUESTION! Sheesh - the guy asks a simple question about getting better at RW and half the responses were, to put it bluntly, useless. It might have been different to say, if money needs to be prioritized, canopy training is a good investment right now. But who's to say he needs it, or didn't already do one?! I don't have a good answer myself. The tunnel is good for skills like side slipping, fall rate, and backsliding problems where a better parter may mask your flaws. But I find ungripped exits and keeping track of everyone while remaining altitude aware important skills too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #12 September 28, 2004 >go and jump with an instructor to get better at rw or to go to a >wind tunnel for half an hour and jump with an instructor there ? It depends on what you want to get out of it. If you want to get better overall at RW, then real air is the hot ticket. You will be working on exits, subterminal stability (and eventually motion) breakoff etc. If, on the other hand, there are very specific skills you want to work on (turns in place, for example) the tunnel can help. In general, I recommend that people with low jump numbers who can only afford one or the other do the skydiving part; currency makes you a safer skydiver and the tunnel can teach you bad habits like not worrying about being in freefall for 90 seconds or like using the walls as a reference. If you can afford both, then the tunnel can be a great tool. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #13 September 28, 2004 If you didn't have a good answer then why did you post in the thread??? Instead of critisizing others, why don't you just post your opinion and move on... I thought xavenger had a worthy point in that a lot of people are neglecting the most important aspect of the skydive... like uh... the landing!!! Hence the high numbers of injuries/fatalties related to poor decisions under canopy above and beyond what is reported at the almighty DZ.com... which are many to say the least. RW is cool and all but if you constantly divot up the landing area you won't be able to actually skydive since you are constantly injured. But I guess that is okay for all the tunnel rats out there. NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #14 September 28, 2004 QuoteIf you didn't have a good answer then why did you post in the thread??? To refocus the discussion in a useful direction. I'd like to know myself because I intend to focus the next 50 jumps on basic RW, and I have the option of going to Perris, doing coaching, or just meeting up with friendly folks. And I did take a canopy class, so suggesting it offers nothing to me. I liked Bill's answer, particularly his point that actual jumps will improve the overall. I think that's a far more helpful answer to the guy. Quote RW is cool and all but if you constantly divot up the landing area you won't be able to actually skydive since you are constantly injured. But I guess that is okay for all the tunnel rats out there. You have this odd obsession with tunnel rats, but it's really besides the point in this thread. (and btw, I have less tunnel time then air time) By 73 jumps, like the OP, I think you have either got basic landing down, or recognized the need to get some help. It's no fun aching on Monday. Certainly training will make one better. But these aren't the people that are thumping into the ground doing hook turns on tiny canopies. They show up somewhere after 100. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #15 September 28, 2004 Moderators are here to refocus the threads... get over yourself... NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #16 September 28, 2004 QuoteBut these aren't the people that are thumping into the ground doing hook turns on tiny canopies. They show up somewhere after 100. This is your inexperience showing through. A LOT of injuries are from inexperienced jumpers initiating "panic turns" when they realize they're going downwind or flying into an obsticle or flying towards canopy traffic. This is also very true on off field landings. If you really want, I can give you personal stories about the injuries and deaths I've seen. Out of all of them 2 and only 2 were from someone actually trying to swoop. PM me if you'd like to hear them.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #17 September 28, 2004 QuoteModerators are here to refocus the threads... get over yourself... Nah, moderators are here to squish people for personal attacks. Hey, greenies, my thin skin is burning from his mocking! Dave, I won't dispute injuries, but deaths point rather clearly elsewhere. And still is irrelevent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #18 September 28, 2004 Dave -- Doncha love it when instructors and pros tell newbies how to save their skins and the newbies say "nawwww . . . that isn't a big deal. I've got that handled."? quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #19 September 28, 2004 QuoteDave -- Doncha love it when instructors and pros tell newbies how to save their skins and the newbies say "nawwww . . . that isn't a big deal. I've got that handled."? But I didn't say any such thing. Neither did the OP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #20 September 28, 2004 You may not have actually said it, but that's certainly what I'm hearing. Maybe my hearing is faulty, but it sure sounded to me like you think with your vast experience you have it all figured out and not just for yourself, but for the original poster of this thread as well. Yeah, maybe after your sessions with Brian -you- don't need additional canopy instruction right now, but I'm guessing that doesn't apply to most of the sub-100 jump folks out there. And I'll bet you a bag of doughnuts you still can't consistantly land and stop standing up inside a 20 meter wide circle 9 out of 10 times. Not at 44 or so jumps you can't. No freekin' way. Now, mind you, I'm not saying that's a prerequisite to moving on and getting tunnel and other coaching, but for cryin' out loud understand what the priority ought to be here. Ya gotta stay in one piece otherwise you just aren't going to be jumping for very long. That's all.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DOCsa 0 #21 September 28, 2004 kewl I probably will be able to do like 3 jumps this month if I go to the tunnel so being current isn’t to much of a problem I know it's better to jump more but I think the tunnel is where I need to be for now my landing are fine ,Yes they could be better but then again so could most of ours but I’ve landed in the circle enough time in a row to receive my FIA b licence just waiting for the number from the FAI but then again I didn't ask if I should learn to land I asked if the tunnel would help me more than jumps to learn RW I’m quite a big boy and fall very fast I can handle myself in the air I passed the South African RW CAT2 program which says I can cope with RW just I haven't done any since like jump 30 and have been FF since then but I want to get my IC1 in BPA and I need to do a 4 point 4 way so I would like some coaching for RW. Maybe this helps decide which I should do Please help this fool in the U.K. _________________________________________ SO many places to jump so little time ! _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #22 September 28, 2004 QuoteI passed the South African RW CAT2 program which says I can cope with RW Well.. not really. The SA Cat 2 program is the equivalent of the USPA ISP. It simply means more dives while under some supervision by more senior FS exponents. There is no national "Cat 2 coach" test or course. As a Cat 2, you're deemed "safe" to jump flat with one other Cat 2 and probably not kill them. Nothing more. Tunnel time will help your skills, sure, but as an instructor, I wish people - all people - would spend just 5% of the time they spend dirt diving looking at the wind sock on the way out - the direction of the previous jump run - the spot - their order in the exit - their time in the door depending on uppers - their possible out's if deep or shallow. That's the stuff that keeps you jumping - and if you keep jumping, the skills will come. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DOCsa 0 #23 September 28, 2004 thanx for the info i'll deffinatly do that and hopefully i'll get better _________________________________________ SO many places to jump so little time ! _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcandalysse 0 #24 September 28, 2004 I agree wholeheartedly with the advice to do canopy classes. But to respond to your question 'tunnel or jumping'.... If you are staying current in your skydives and have the cash for a slot in the tunnel, then I recommend tunnel coaching as a great way to build your confidence in the air. You will still have to work on exits in the air, a bad exit can ruin the rest of the skydive. But to get a good feeling for controling your body in 125mph winds, the tunnel with its longer time to repeat over and over the move you are training, plus the walls to give you reference to how stable you are.....is a wonderful tool. For example, some of the recent practice we have done in the tunnel involves our coach (Sally) pushing or pulling on a grip, or producing a burble to induce instabilities. Using the walls as reference we can see how well we maintain our postion. This is good practice for RW when others' actions often need to be compensated for. marc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #25 September 28, 2004 QuoteIf I was local to a windtunnel I would use it occasionally. But since I would have to travel about ~900 miles to get to one I would vote for more jumps. It is amazing to me how overemphasized tunnel training is getting. You will find that those that either spend a lot of money at the tunnel or those that make money from the tunnel are the ones that push it the most. Yes, it can help you correct bad habits - sometimes in a shorter period of time. But then again, so can a bunch of jumps. Like Quade said, if you have to get a plane ticket, lodging, meals, coach, etc....it all adds up and you could afford more jumps at home possibly with a good coach to help you advance. The more jumps you make will help you see more experiences and make you safer as well - you will be able to react better during a skydive if you have experienced it before. The skills will come with every jump, but it takes time. Experience in the air cannot be matched by any tunnel. There is a lot more to a skydive than just the freefall. Many jumpers for many years progressed in the sport and became champs without the tunnel. It can be done - the key is desire, motivation and dedication (lots of money doesn't hurt either). There are going to be those students that just are not able to relax in the air - and the tunnel will help. I've seen it help a few people correct major issues that almost got them to quit the sport. Tunnel time is not a waste, and I have done it myself. New skydivers want instant gratification and want to be world class by 100 jumps and swooping canopies at 100 jumps, and fully sponsored by 150 jumps. What is the rush? I see the tunnel as only helping fuel this scenario. Make goals, progress and learn and keep it on a steady pace. If you want, make the tunnel a part of your training, but don't use it only as a short cut to advance to another level. And I can't agree with Quade any more than the rest have. Focus on the canopy training. We lose more jumpers each year under good canopies than anything else. That should cause you concern and make you want to focus on that._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
