why tandem before AFF ???

[President 0]

BigWay,

the least thing I want from this forum is flames.
And you are the only one so far who keeps calling me names - "troll", "president of trolls", "tosser".
What else ? What are you trying to achieve ?
It is my impression it is YOU who's trying to get reaction. All I'm doing here is asking questions - in case you didn't noticed I am a VERY INEXPERIENCED STUDENT.

I don't need morales from you, I don't need you to tell if this sport is for me or not, Okay ?
Just look around and see how ppl with way more jumps than you respond - cool professional answer or none. If you can't do this, don't say anything.

---end of rant

[bigway 4]

yes fair enough, you dont need me saying that and i apologise. ...but president i told you it was important that you know your canopy size, you did not ask a question instead you responded that it does not matter for you what the size of your canopy is...you said they are all close enough, and it does not matter what size your reserve is...well, it does, and you need to know, and not switch gear every jump.
You saying this really got me going. so my apology and i will edit my rude, pissed off in the moment comments of abuse.
But speak to an instructor, dont learn from the internet, until you know your basics. I have had a couple of pm's from other students thanking me for flaming you. they did not want to because they feel like their jump numbers do not hold up but you need to know that safety and knowledge of your equipment is more important than posting on the net.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[bigway 4]

president, what is your name? maybe someone from byron here knows you and can give you some advice in person when they next see you at the dz. They might be able to explain in person how safety comes first. I know it is easier to verbally talk about pros and cons in person that the forums. Just know, there are no cons about knowing your equipment or jumping the same gear.....they are all positive unwritten rule, or in some countries written rules of skydiving.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[President 0]

Point taken, apology accepted, let's just get along.
Skydiving seems to be pretty small world, who knows we may bump onto each other, and I'd prefer to have you as a friend, not foe.

As to my "bad attitude" I think I explained myself in previous posting where I made an analogy with a car. My point was just that I don't think it matters to me because well, I won't be able to tell the difference anyway. I can't help jumping different equipment every time - our DZ gets busy at times and I just take what's available - they're all Nav's after all, just different sizes. I never noticed any difference in the way it flies - just because with 8 jumps I don't feel it yet.

But if this is what I have to change - Okay, point taken, thanks ! Next time (this Sat) I'll go and get all the info I can from my JMs.

[pilotdave 0]

Which country is it that has a rule that you need to know the size of your canopies and always need to jump the same rig? I dunno where you jump, but at many dropzones, it isn't possible to jump the same student rig every time. And I don't think I knew what type/size of reserve was in the student rigs I jumped. All I knew is they were sized appropriately for me because my instructors said so. Always knew my main size, but again, only because my instructors told me what main I had. As a student, you don't know what you don't know or should know. You ONLY know what your instructors choose to tell you. I dunno why you feel the need to argue with someone about what they don't know.

As for tandems before AFF, well... my first tandem was jump #135. It was tandem #7 for the instructor. That tandem stuff is scary!

Dave

[kelpdiver 2]

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As to my "bad attitude" I think I explained myself in previous posting where I made an analogy with a car. My point was just that I don't think it matters to me because well, I won't be able to tell the difference anyway. I can't help jumping different equipment every time - our DZ gets busy at times and I just take what's available - they're all Nav's after all, just different sizes. I never noticed any difference in the way it flies - just because with 8 jumps I don't feel it yet.

You should be able to discern a difference of 210 versus 290. And probably for smaller deltas as well, unless you're loading it pretty lightly. At least they're all the same canopy type. But mind you, even if you don't know the size, someone does. If the rigs aren't marked with the size, they probably do have a number and a corresponding entry on the white board.

If you're light enough you can get away with the lightest student rig, but for someone like me that could lead to trouble.

[kelpdiver 2]

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If you hesitate on the exit count you can lose one of those AFF-I's off the bat.

No.

If you hesitate on the count, you should get exited by the instructors.

Can and should are on different realms, Remster. It happened to my bud, and we were always briefed on what to do if we ended up in freefall alone. Relying on having 2 backups on an AFF jump is a bad idea.

I believe he did the out in out routine, but just didn't leave, i guess surprising the outside hanger.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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I'm happy my first jump was NOT made strapped like a drooling baby to his daddy's chest but a real one :)

The thought of doing a tandem skydive scares me. I probably wouldn't have thought so when I started, but now that i've jumped my own rig for a year+, it sounds pretty scary to not have one on and trust someone else with my life.

I don't think anyone is a 'drooling baby' just because they do a tandem. The threat of dying is still very real. Student rigs have cypres, so your reserve is coming out even if you screw up. And, your jms will pull for you before that happens quite likely. I don't see how that's any more scary than a tandem... which you have NO control over, really. Tandems sound more frightening to me, anyhow.

Angela.

[bigway 4]

Yeah Dave it probably is not a rule about jumping the same equipment but to memory in The nzpf new zealand parachute rules, ( maybe it was just advised) or maybe it was just said to me but i think i remember it in writing saying that you must familiarise yourself with your equipment. I also think it sai.....ah actually i know what i am remembering and it is when i did a high alttitude course. this is where it says you must jump the equipment you are familiar with and usually jump. So it is not a written rule, but it is an unspoken rule. I know i dont need to argue with this guy but i am glad i did. He is doing something about it. On the note that you did not know your the size of your canopies, well you should have, even if it meant nothing to you. This is what log books are for....where it says equipment for this jump, or what ever yours says, you write the container and the make and size of your main.
You only know what your instructors choose to tell you, well students ask alot of questions here in the forums, i think they should be asking half these questions to their instructors. You would think when you start learning how to jump you waould want to know how big your reserve parachute is? You can all tell me that this does not matter....but it does!.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[President 0]

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The thought of doing a tandem skydive scares me. I probably wouldn't have thought so when I started, but now that i've jumped my own rig for a year+, it sounds pretty scary to not have one on and trust someone else with my life.

I don't think anyone is a 'drooling baby' just because they do a tandem. The threat of dying is still very real. Student rigs have cypres, so your reserve is coming out even if you screw up. And, your jms will pull for you before that happens quite likely. I don't see how that's any more scary than a tandem... which you have NO control over, really. Tandems sound more frightening to me, anyhow.

The reason I called it "more real" is because a) I have my own rig and b) I land it myself.

And yes, the idea of not being in control scares the living daylights out of me - that's why I find tandems scary. I'm one of those guys who hates being driven in a car by someone else - again because of the control issue.

[mattjw916 2]

Control is just an illusion... sometimes it is more fun to just sit back and enjoy the ride.

I would have no problem going on another tandem for fun or as a training jump for a new tandem instructor (I think you need a C license for this if I am not mistaken). It would be rather entertaining to try and mess with the TM on the exit or before they get the drogue out. (as long as we discussed it first obviously)

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

I also thought it to be a better experience, that's why I chose AFF as well. But, in hindsight, there is so much work on AFF dives, I didn't get to enjoy the view until later on, but when your fresh, you probably really enjoy it. Maybe I should've gone tandem:)

I was just saying, speaking of tandems as if they are for drooling babies makes no sense when you think about it. They are leaving that plane just like anyone else, that is a very "real" experience.

Angela

[President 0]

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I would have no problem going on another tandem for fun or as a training jump for a new tandem instructor

Dude, you surely got big balls !
I'm scared even to think of being a playdoll for a "new tandem instructor".

Skydiving is pretty relaxing anyway - the only mandatory actions are pull and flare - and technically speaking even pull isn't that mandatory
(Warning - the last sentence *is* a troll)

[President 0]

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I was just saying, speaking of tandems as if they are for drooling babies makes no sense when you think about it. They are leaving that plane just like anyone else, that is a very "real" experience.

Oh, sorry, I guess you misunderstood - that was a joke of course. The reason that wording was chosen, as I explained in that same posting, was because I used to have my own baby strapped on my chest in that "kangaroo pouch" harness and when I first saw a tandem I immediatly thought of that :)

[PhreeZone 15]

Angela... go along for a ride for an instructor getting current again or just earning their rating. Its a lot of fun and it showed me just how different things become after a while. On my first tandem it went by so fast I could'nt remember parts of it. At 300+ jumps I was amazed at how long it lasted and how much fun it was just to be able to look around and enjoy freefall with out having to worry about turning points, docking on anyone or anything like that. So totally relaxing...

Plus its a free jump usually and you don't have to pack afterwards

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

That sounds pretty cool, actually. It's a little freaky thinking about not having my own system, and relying on someone else. I don't know anyone going for their rating, but maybe if the opportunity arises i'll give it a shot! :) Free is good and I am all for not packing! :D

Angela.

[pilotdave 0]

Yeah I've done a couple of those. Tried to kill us both times. Gave me a LOT of confidence in tandems afterwards though. The first was my 135th jump, my first tandem, and the instructor's 7th. He told me to arch on exit like a tandem student, but then once the drogue was out I could do whatever I wanted. So I spent most of the skydive trying to do anything I could to make us go unstable. The istructor just countered every attempt I made to turn and I couldn't make us do anything but fall nice and straight. I was in a tuck, touching my toes for like half the jump. Wish we had video. Second one was a recurrency jump with another instructor after winter. Did the same stuff but this time it was out of the 182. I wasn't paying any attention to altitude and I was trying my hardest to make us spin right at pull time. No problems though! I'd do another tandem any time. I have no problem putting my life into someone elses hands. Do it on a daily basis anyway and any tandem instructor is a better skydiver than me anyway.

Dave

[crwmike 0]

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And, while I don't want to sound critical, I think the notion that you must be a pussy if you rely on an expert to initiate you into a life-threatening and frightening sport is macho crap. You have the rest of your life to throw yourself out of the plane alone. There's nothing noble about doing it on your first jump.

First, I wonder how you know this. Second, how many times in our life do we have the opportunity to dig deep down into your soul and discover who you are and what you are capable of? How many times would you pass?

I don't think you a pussy. I do believe most DZ businesses deny you the opportunity to find out more about yourself.

AggieDave says his DZ saves you$300. If everyone who did 2-3 'working' tandems went on to AFF, he might have a valid point. Thing is, few do and so the DZ herds everyone through the tandem ride cause it is a lean, green money machine. The saving the AFF student money (assuming your premise is valid) is thrown in as the rationale for selling more rides.

No offense Dave, if you give a good ride and are pleasant with your customers, I have no gripe with you.
Your desire and enthusiasm are admirable. I felt much the same way about medical care in my early career.

Michael

[AggieDave 6]

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No offense Dave, if you give a good ride and are pleasant with your customers, I have no gripe with you.

I can understand your response. Its rare to see a DZ that's as motivated to turn out really good skydivers instead of just herding everyone through, but that's my DZ's niche. We turn out students that are fucking amazing, taking the time to train and really going above and beyond anything else I've ever seen. It all starts with our working tandems and the kind of training and what we train and how we train.

Also, it works out, since the student isn't paying for 2 AFF instructors to go up on those first two dives, and we sell the second tandem for $99, that those two dives alone save the student over $200. The transition course from tandem to AFF although as comprehensive, is shorter since the student already know80% of the course (although the student may not realize they learned all of that until they get to the course) due to the working tandems. So we're able to charge less for the course as well.

Once you really look at it, you can see how it can save money and how my DZ set up our program to save the skydiving student money AND teach them really well.

(Really well to the point that it just about pisses me off, students are coming out with 25 jumps and their A license flying much better then I did with over 100 jumps).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[pilotdave 0]

I think you must realize that your DZ is not the norm. Many DZs require at least one tandem before AFF 1. I'm not talking about tandem progression. I'm talking about a "tandem ride" before taking the first jump course. Doesn't save a single penny, but rather adds $200 or so to the cost of getting a license. Sure, some students might pass AFF more easily after a tandem and not have to repeat an expensive AFF level, but it won't generally save the student money.

I started with AFF1. Ended up failing AFF4 my first time. Cant remember prices, but the AFF4 redo was cheaper than a tandem, and I seriously doubt a tandem or two woulda made any difference in my ability to pass AFF4.

Tandems are a great way to get exposed to skydiving. But also not 100% necessary before AFF. Tandem progression might even be a superior teaching method than traditional AFF, but that's not what I'm talking about. I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is a very big financial benefit to a dropzone in requiring a tandem before AFF.

Dave

[AggieDave 6]

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Tandems are a great way to get exposed to skydiving. But also not 100% necessary before AFF. Tandem progression might even be a superior teaching method than traditional AFF, but that's not what I'm talking about. I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is a very big financial benefit to a dropzone in requiring a tandem before AFF.

I understand that. That's also why if you'll notice in my posts about this topic to newbies, I specifically state training tandems or tandem progression tandems or Cat A/Cat B tandems. I specifically seperate the "fun" tandems from the training tandems.

Yes, my DZ is definately not the norm, BUT there are a lot of DZs out there that have a really good tandem progression method, similar to what is laid out in the USPA's ISP.

So clumping all DZs together that "require" a tandem prior to AFF as money grabbers is very very incorrect. Actually, its kind of insulting.



Oh, btw, as a side note, my DZ offers regular AFF as well as IAD, but only a few have decided not to do the tandem progression. Especially once they see the price break down.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Perplexiti 0]

I have had a total of 5 jumps 2 of wich were tandem. I am going this weekend to take my lvl 5. I know I jump a sabre 170 with a pd 160 reserve so I guess my instructor is not teaching me the right things? Or maybe my instructor wants me to be educated in all aspects of the sport. You have to know the size so you will know what you are comfortable and safe in if not I hate to see what you buy when you do get ready to purchase your own rig! Your log book does have an entry space for the equipment you use its in the top left corner check it out. The safety aspect of teaching you sizes of canopies main or reserve is so you are prepared when you are on your own and have to know what you need to buy. So what were you planning on buying? Btw the red handle is not the oh shit bar!

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Hello, Bigway, HELLO !!! Anybody home ?

Tell me how is your posting any relevant to AFF vs Tandem ???
I don't think with my 8 jumps knowing exactly how many square feet my canopy is makes any difference to me. With either size this canopy is very benign and easy to navigate, that's all I care about at this point. Plus, there's no guarantee I get the same size each time I jump - I just grab whatever's available. When I buy my own I'll know what I have. Now when I put the rig on nobody even knows exactly what color it is, to say nothing about size. And I couldn't care less - all I care about is that it is a student rig, period. I'll handle it whatever size it happens to be.
As to logbook entries - student logbook doesn't have an entry for size, plus my JMs never fill the equipment line anyway, only harness size (M,S or L)
The only really important info in a student logbook is progression - so next time instructor doesn't have to guess who you are.

As to safety: again, tell me how knowing my reserve size change anything in the emergency procedures ?
I don't give a damn how big it is - I know my handles, I know it is there and I checked the FAA seal, that's it.

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--------------------------------------------------Live for today, Love as if there will be no tomorrow!

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[President 0]

Dude, this discussion has kind of ended naturally - re-read the thread, all my answers are there. As well as opinions of the gurus. Oh, and this was off-topic anyways.

Not sure what the "Btw the red handle is not the oh shit bar!" statement was supposed to mean.

[bigway 4]

I think she might have been letting you know that students should know the size of their equipment, just like us guys like to know. It is naturall. lol.
But yes it did end naturally.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[President 0]

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I think she might have been letting you know that students should know the size of their equipment, just like us guys like to know. It is naturall. lol.
But yes it did end naturally.

Opps, the "dude" is a girl ! Sorry Yeah I figured, just didn't want to come back to it again - I already got my butt kicked on this issue.