Zoter 0 #76 March 8, 2004 Breaking my own rules on this one ( and consider you did have the last word Ron) " Ask yourself one tiny question...Why do you think I even post here? Ya think I just love to type? Or could it be I'm trying to give back to the sport? " hmm...judged by the length of your posts...I think that question answers itself ! Now really...this is my last post on this....frankly ...Im bored with your confrontational attitude, which has made me respond likewise, and I have no desire to give you a public forum to continue this childish tit for tat... I respect your ability and knowledge....but IMHO...your interpersonal skills are still on their first jump ! Relax....really...Im not posting again on this topic.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #77 March 8, 2004 Ron often goes beyond what needs to be said (and believe me I have bashed horns with him in the past). But please be aware of one thing here. He does speak from experience. He speaks from an experience level that for sure you don't have and also from an experience level that someone like myself doesn't even have. So don't forget the title of this thread. "Keeping one's mouth shut" and it's often best to just walk away ... You may not agree with me, but you still have a lot to learn (as do I) about this sport and until we've been around for years, we must respect what the more experienced people tell us. Just my two cents of course ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #78 March 8, 2004 Quote You have so much to learn....I really hope you get over your childish nature and open your ears to learn. This may appear to be too logical of a question...or like it's a facitious question...but I assure you that it's not and I'm genuinely curious as to the answer. If jump numbers and years in the sport is what is important...then how can anyone learn from listening to you? Now, before you try and make this out to be a personal thing that I'm attacking you or disrespecting you or something, let me ask it again and make sure you understand that I'm not talking about you, Ron...I'm talking about experienced skydivers... there's two parts to skydiving... 1. Didactic knowledge - knowing what the terms are, what the malfunctions are, what the fatality reports say, what proceedures should be for any given situation, etc etc etc. 2. practical skills - being ABLE to fly in freefall, being able to fly your body (not mentally knowing how to do it - but physically being able to fly your body), being able to fly and land your canopy, being able to swoop, etc. You (Ron) place such emphasis on years in the sport and experience ( jump numbers, how many body bags you've seen carried away, what you can do under canopy) - and yet you jump up and down and scream, "You (newbies) don't want to LISTEN to us (high jump numbers)!!!" Yet it seems like someone could shut up, follow you around for 4 months, absorb every word you say - they could tape record you and play it back while they sleep - they could read every book out there, look at every website - they could try to become a mini-ron by trying to absorb your very essense... yet they would "know nothing" because in that 4 months they only got 50 jumps. they can have no opinion or useful information to share with anyone else because they are still 'newbies'... Having that attitude, I can imagine, could make a lot of people roll their eyes at you and say, "Then what's the point?" What's the point in listening to anything you have to say if it doesn't make a difference? You have more respect for someone who hasn't read any books and keeps to himself and yet has 1000 jumps - than you do for someone who seeks didactic learning and is looking everywhere and talking to everyone and yet doesn't have the "time in the sport" yet... and I'm not sure why. Why you respect jump numbers more than anything else. Quote Quote QuoteNobody doubts your experience /qualifications as being excellent......but IMHO you are lacking what is a very admirable quality in a person as well as an instructor.....non confrontational approachability Again...I am very approachable...If you are not a jerk when you ask, or if you don't act like you already know it all....Or if you don't attack me. You may be in real life (as I told you in PMs - someone told me that in RL you are much more...what's the word I'm looking for....you just come across differently in real life) however, that translates very very poorly on the computer. There are people that approach you with kid gloves and preempt their questions with, "You are a God and carry with you infinately more wisdom than I do..but....*ask a question*" and your response to them is oftentimes very abrupt and on the edge of degrading, usually bringing jump numbers or experience into it. I think the bottom line is...it's hard for people to respect you (as a person) when you don't show respect for them (as a person). Quote Until you have 100 jumps you really don't know anything. You just think you do...And that is even more dangerous. Which, again, invalidates any reason any of us might have for listening to you. Nothing you say will have any value...because you simply can not know anything until you have X number of jumps. So why SHOULD they listen to you.....when they are incapable of learning sub-howevermany jumps? (they just can THINK they know something) Quote Here is a good example of a newbie giving bad advice. bad advice is not limited to newbies.. or intermediates... or 10,000 jump skydivers... bad advice is like a cold - anyone can have it, it's not limited to one section of the population - and you don't always know right away that you got it, but eventually you probably will. Quote Here is a great example of a person with less than 100 jumps argueing with an instructor. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=805200#805200 You seem to mistake "questioning" with "arguing". If my JM says something to me, and I heard different advice somewhere else....are you suggesting that it's arrogant and wrong for me to bring up what I'd heard and open a dialogue about it? "this is what I heard..." or "this happened to me..." are you suggesting that those are things that shouldn't be said to an instructor? Quote Well it IS a personal attack..It seems to be the only thing you are good at. and that is a personal attack right back at him. You don't know him...you don't know what he is and is not good at...yet you're pissed at him for insulting you and are lashing back. Understandable? Sure. However..you're doing exactly what you accused him of doing. Quote If I could go back in time to when In had 70 jumps...I'd smack myself for being so dumb and thinking I knew it all. However, Ron....everyone isn't like you. Maybe that's the problem...maybe you're looking back to what YOU were like as a newbie...how arrogant YOU were...and assuming that all newbies must be exactly like you were. I can almost with a 100% certainty say that not all newbies are like you were. However...I can also say that I bet that very few newbies are as stupid as you treat them... Sometimes it's the person thumping their chest the hardest that makes you not want to listen. Billvon....he and I have disagreed about things - but I have learned SO SO SO MUCH from just reading what he writes. he writes with a subtlety that just draws my interest when I see his name on a post...and he has earned respect from me as much from his experience as he has from the way that he treats others. (sorry Bill....got off on the Billvon fanclub spiel... ) -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #79 March 8, 2004 QuoteBreaking my own rules on this one ( and consider you did have the last word Ron) " Ask yourself one tiny question...Why do you think I even post here? Ya think I just love to type? Or could it be I'm trying to give back to the sport? " hmm...judged by the length of your posts...I think that question answers itself ! See you still fail to answer the question...And still just try and slam me. QuoteNow really...this is my last post on this....frankly ...your boring me with your confrontational attitude and I have no desire to give you a public forum to continue this childish behavoir I would like to point out how YOU are acting like a child..... Reference this post http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=963352#963352 where you start the name calling. Quoteyou tend to emphasise the skygod quality that makes students not 'dare' ask instructors for fear or ridicule Thats an insult. Quotebut IMHO you are lacking what is a very admirable quality in a person as well as an instructor.....non confrontational approachability Thats just flat out wrong. And how is this for a personal attack? *** And when I brougt up how you are acting like a child...Calling people names instead of listening... Then you do this...I ask you a question..and you reply with more BS. Quote Ask yourself one tiny question...Why do you think I even post here? Ya think I just love to type? Or could it be I'm trying to give back to the sport? " Can't you have an adult conversation? You were the one to start calling me names and insulting me as soon as you felt bad. Typical attitude for a 5 year old. hmm...judged by the length of your posts...I think that question answers itself ! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #80 March 8, 2004 What part of "knock it off" was unclear? That goes for everyone involved in this little vendetta, not just Zoter. Take it to PM's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #81 March 8, 2004 QuoteIf jump numbers and years in the sport is what is important...then how can anyone learn from listening to you? I told myself that I was not going to respond to you since we get into really stupid debates.... But I'll answer this one. You are correct that there are two types of knowledge....Sort of. One is knowing what to do. A whuffo knows you have to pull....But he does not know how. A FJC student knows how to fly a canopy..At least on paper. All skydivers know how to handle a mal...In theory..Why is it that so many bounce in real life then? Its cause they can't put theory into practice. You can know something, but not be able to do it. I *know* how to freefly...But I can't do it. So I don't give freefly advice. I do know how to fly a canopy (Pro rating, jumps on canopies from rounds to Xbraced 69's) so I CAN give canopy advice. I have two Instructor ratings (SL, Tandem)...But you don't see me giving AFF advice do you? QuoteYou (Ron) place such emphasis on years in the sport and experience Yep, the only real way to KNOW how to do something is to do it. I can give you book after book on how to fly. From canopies to the space shuttle...And it will all mean NOTHING to you if I put you out on a 69 Xbraced canopy in the FJC. However, a guy that has read all that is better off than a guy that we just pull off of the street. So while you can't *learn* just by listening...It is better than not listening. QuoteYet it seems like someone could shut up, follow you around for 4 months, absorb every word you say - they could tape record you and play it back while they sleep - they could read every book out there, look at every website - they could try to become a mini-ron by trying to absorb your very essense... yet they would "know nothing" because in that 4 months they only got 50 jumps. they can have no opinion or useful information to share with anyone else because they are still 'newbies'... Any information they might have would just be from being a parrot. they would not really *know* the subject..they would just be repeating something they heard 1,000 times. If you could learn from just hearing it...We would not have people still panic turning into the ground. And the thought of a Mini me even scares me. QuoteWhat's the point in listening to anything you have to say if it doesn't make a difference? It makes a difference...But its only part of it...You have to DO it to really understand it. Having didactic knowledge is better than having no knowledge at all...But didactic is not as good as having practical knowledge. So yes I think a guy with 1,000 jumps knows more than a guy with 50...Even if the guy with 1,000 does not know how to read. There is a saying in SCUBA diving...The best way to stay in shape for diving is to.....dive. The best way to remember how to dive is to....dive. The best way to learn is to.....Thats right to Dive. The best way to learn how to skydive is to jump....You can't get true skills by a book, a website, or sleeping with someone (Refered to as the Hot Beef Injection of skill or HBIS). No matter how much you read....No matter how much you listen...The only way to really learn is to do it. Try to explain how a skydive feels to a whuffo...They will not understand. Still reading a lot and LISTENING (Which is something people don't do enough of) are better than nothing...But they fall short of experience. Quoteand I'm not sure why. Why you respect jump numbers more than anything else Its called proof. A guy that has done something 10,000 times has done something 10,000 times. That will make him better than a guy that has done it once. Now there are plenty of guys with less jumps than me that are better at freeflying than me....But guess what? I don't give freeflying advice, and when I do freefly (on the very rare occasion) I listen to anyone that has more expereince than me...Even if he has only 200 total jumps...He has more expereince and I listen. Folks that have 100 jumps and no ratings should not teach....They cause more harm than good. QuoteThere are people that approach you with kid gloves and preempt their questions with, "You are a God and carry with you infinately more wisdom than I do..but....*ask a question*" and your response to them is oftentimes very abrupt and on the edge of degrading, usually bringing jump numbers or experience into it. #1...Im not a god. I have a lot of experience (More than I ever thought I would get) and I try to share it as much as I can. #2. If someone came to me with the "You are a god" line...I'd laugh at them. I don't know any gods. #3. The only time people get attitude from me is when they "know it all". When a person with 100 jumps starts arguing with a guy with 1400 jumps...Well thats fucked up. When a person with very little expereince thinks his voice should count just because he thinks it should. Guess what? If a guy with 4,000 jumps starts to talk to me...I listen. Know why? He has done something 1,000 more times than me...and that is a lot. QuoteI think the bottom line is...it's hard for people to respect you (as a person) when you don't show respect for them (as a person). I respect people till they prove to me they are stupid. And I respect people not only for skydiving. I respect Winsor, I respect billVon (Don't tell him), I respect Kallend when it comes to School..I sent him an Email about me going back to college when I needed more info. (Really don't tell him). I respect Tony Hathaway..He has 10,000 jumps..Good God thats a lot. Oren and Laura who are on here I respect. And I ask them several questions about life in general. I respect HeatherB who corrects my speling mistakes. I respect my riggers who know more about gear than I will ever know. I respect lots of folks...I respect the students who come out for the FJC and try to learn something that scares the hell out of most of the population...I respect the tandem student that puts his fears aside to push their personal limits. I don't respect a person with 100 jumps that thinks they know it all...I don't respect a student that will not listen....I don't respect a tandem student that makes one jump yet acts like an experienced jumper. I respect everyone till they prove me wrong...except for cats...I hate cats. QuoteYou seem to mistake "questioning" with "arguing". If it starts with you don't know...Its an argument. If you have to use Well in my canopy control class I was told..... Then you don't know. you are being a parrot...But some confuse haveing book learning with knowledge....Big difference. There is an old Tshirt saying. It says "At 2,000 feet the last thing you need is a college education". QuoteHowever, Ron....everyone isn't like you. Yep my friends told me to get the Stiletto 97...I bought a 120..And hooked that fucker in on the third jump. I was never as cocky as some of todays jumpers...I was eager as hell, and I listened to EVERYONE. But I was still stupid, and what I thought I knew was less than I did know. I bet its the same with you...But maybe you have just not realized that yet. QuoteI can almost with a 100% certainty say that not all newbies are like you were If they were my life would be easy...I listen to those with more experience. QuoteI can also say that I bet that very few newbies are as stupid as you treat them... And I bet there are plenty that are and just don't know they are. QuoteBillvon....he and I have disagreed about things - but I have learned SO SO SO MUCH from just reading what he writes. he writes with a subtlety that just draws my interest when I see his name on a post...and he has earned respect from me as much from his experience as he has from the way that he treats others. Ya know I get PM's about how people listen to everything I say...Huh...Funny huh? Some don't like how I say it...But I don't like how some people don't listen so I guess we are even then. Anyway...Im done here. This thread has been done about 100 times on here. The funny thing is the guys who used to argue your side are now on the other side and the newer jumpers are on their old side. Notice how most of the guys with a lot of experience say that younger jumpers should not teach...and the younger jumpers say they should? Kinda funny really. And the reason that people think Im an ass is I don't just put my two cents in and leave...I, like a dumbass, actually try to get people to listen. My life would be much happier if I just didn't give a shit about the newer jumpers."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #82 March 8, 2004 QuoteYet it seems like someone could shut up, follow you around for 4 months, absorb every word you say - they could tape record you and play it back while they sleep - they could read every book out there, look at every website - they could try to become a mini-ron by trying to absorb your very essense... yet they would "know nothing" because in that 4 months they only got 50 jumps. they can have no opinion or useful information to share with anyone else because they are still 'newbies'... I think the issue isn't what they know, but what they don't know and not knowing that they don't know it. I got in a bad off landing yesterday that could've easily led to an incident(landed next to a busy highway and my canopy partially went up onto the road). I got into that situation because of things I didn't know, stuff that wasn't obvious to me at the time but sure as hell is today. I'm sure I have a lot more of those mistakes to make and there will be a lot more things that are obvious to me after I make those mistakes. If I teach people then, I can help to make sure they avoid those potential mistakes or work to minimize the consquences of them. If I try teach them today, I don't know about those mistakes so I could actually end up leading them into those dangers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #83 March 8, 2004 QuoteI think the issue isn't what they know, but what they don't know and not knowing that they don't know it. Bingo. QuoteI got in a bad off landing yesterday that could've easily led to an incident(landed next to a busy highway and my canopy partially went up onto the road). I got into that situation because of things I didn't know, stuff that wasn't obvious to me at the time but sure as hell is today. I knew about that danger...read this. I also know..or rather heard about a jumper in Ark. that landed fine, and then his parachute got hit by a train. QuoteI'm sure I have a lot more of those mistakes to make and there will be a lot more things that are obvious to me after I make those mistakes. If I teach people then, I can help to make sure they avoid those potential mistakes or work to minimize the consquences of them. If I try teach them today, I don't know about those mistakes so I could actually end up leading them into those dangers. Yep, I have heard low timers tell other people to land near roads...Since it makes it easy to get into the recovery vehical....Bet they never thought it could kill them...Now you know, and I hope others now know."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,402 #84 March 8, 2004 >Anyway...Im done here. Agreed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 4 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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Ron 7 #79 March 8, 2004 QuoteBreaking my own rules on this one ( and consider you did have the last word Ron) " Ask yourself one tiny question...Why do you think I even post here? Ya think I just love to type? Or could it be I'm trying to give back to the sport? " hmm...judged by the length of your posts...I think that question answers itself ! See you still fail to answer the question...And still just try and slam me. QuoteNow really...this is my last post on this....frankly ...your boring me with your confrontational attitude and I have no desire to give you a public forum to continue this childish behavoir I would like to point out how YOU are acting like a child..... Reference this post http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=963352#963352 where you start the name calling. Quoteyou tend to emphasise the skygod quality that makes students not 'dare' ask instructors for fear or ridicule Thats an insult. Quotebut IMHO you are lacking what is a very admirable quality in a person as well as an instructor.....non confrontational approachability Thats just flat out wrong. And how is this for a personal attack? *** And when I brougt up how you are acting like a child...Calling people names instead of listening... Then you do this...I ask you a question..and you reply with more BS. Quote Ask yourself one tiny question...Why do you think I even post here? Ya think I just love to type? Or could it be I'm trying to give back to the sport? " Can't you have an adult conversation? You were the one to start calling me names and insulting me as soon as you felt bad. Typical attitude for a 5 year old. hmm...judged by the length of your posts...I think that question answers itself ! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #80 March 8, 2004 What part of "knock it off" was unclear? That goes for everyone involved in this little vendetta, not just Zoter. Take it to PM's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #81 March 8, 2004 QuoteIf jump numbers and years in the sport is what is important...then how can anyone learn from listening to you? I told myself that I was not going to respond to you since we get into really stupid debates.... But I'll answer this one. You are correct that there are two types of knowledge....Sort of. One is knowing what to do. A whuffo knows you have to pull....But he does not know how. A FJC student knows how to fly a canopy..At least on paper. All skydivers know how to handle a mal...In theory..Why is it that so many bounce in real life then? Its cause they can't put theory into practice. You can know something, but not be able to do it. I *know* how to freefly...But I can't do it. So I don't give freefly advice. I do know how to fly a canopy (Pro rating, jumps on canopies from rounds to Xbraced 69's) so I CAN give canopy advice. I have two Instructor ratings (SL, Tandem)...But you don't see me giving AFF advice do you? QuoteYou (Ron) place such emphasis on years in the sport and experience Yep, the only real way to KNOW how to do something is to do it. I can give you book after book on how to fly. From canopies to the space shuttle...And it will all mean NOTHING to you if I put you out on a 69 Xbraced canopy in the FJC. However, a guy that has read all that is better off than a guy that we just pull off of the street. So while you can't *learn* just by listening...It is better than not listening. QuoteYet it seems like someone could shut up, follow you around for 4 months, absorb every word you say - they could tape record you and play it back while they sleep - they could read every book out there, look at every website - they could try to become a mini-ron by trying to absorb your very essense... yet they would "know nothing" because in that 4 months they only got 50 jumps. they can have no opinion or useful information to share with anyone else because they are still 'newbies'... Any information they might have would just be from being a parrot. they would not really *know* the subject..they would just be repeating something they heard 1,000 times. If you could learn from just hearing it...We would not have people still panic turning into the ground. And the thought of a Mini me even scares me. QuoteWhat's the point in listening to anything you have to say if it doesn't make a difference? It makes a difference...But its only part of it...You have to DO it to really understand it. Having didactic knowledge is better than having no knowledge at all...But didactic is not as good as having practical knowledge. So yes I think a guy with 1,000 jumps knows more than a guy with 50...Even if the guy with 1,000 does not know how to read. There is a saying in SCUBA diving...The best way to stay in shape for diving is to.....dive. The best way to remember how to dive is to....dive. The best way to learn is to.....Thats right to Dive. The best way to learn how to skydive is to jump....You can't get true skills by a book, a website, or sleeping with someone (Refered to as the Hot Beef Injection of skill or HBIS). No matter how much you read....No matter how much you listen...The only way to really learn is to do it. Try to explain how a skydive feels to a whuffo...They will not understand. Still reading a lot and LISTENING (Which is something people don't do enough of) are better than nothing...But they fall short of experience. Quoteand I'm not sure why. Why you respect jump numbers more than anything else Its called proof. A guy that has done something 10,000 times has done something 10,000 times. That will make him better than a guy that has done it once. Now there are plenty of guys with less jumps than me that are better at freeflying than me....But guess what? I don't give freeflying advice, and when I do freefly (on the very rare occasion) I listen to anyone that has more expereince than me...Even if he has only 200 total jumps...He has more expereince and I listen. Folks that have 100 jumps and no ratings should not teach....They cause more harm than good. QuoteThere are people that approach you with kid gloves and preempt their questions with, "You are a God and carry with you infinately more wisdom than I do..but....*ask a question*" and your response to them is oftentimes very abrupt and on the edge of degrading, usually bringing jump numbers or experience into it. #1...Im not a god. I have a lot of experience (More than I ever thought I would get) and I try to share it as much as I can. #2. If someone came to me with the "You are a god" line...I'd laugh at them. I don't know any gods. #3. The only time people get attitude from me is when they "know it all". When a person with 100 jumps starts arguing with a guy with 1400 jumps...Well thats fucked up. When a person with very little expereince thinks his voice should count just because he thinks it should. Guess what? If a guy with 4,000 jumps starts to talk to me...I listen. Know why? He has done something 1,000 more times than me...and that is a lot. QuoteI think the bottom line is...it's hard for people to respect you (as a person) when you don't show respect for them (as a person). I respect people till they prove to me they are stupid. And I respect people not only for skydiving. I respect Winsor, I respect billVon (Don't tell him), I respect Kallend when it comes to School..I sent him an Email about me going back to college when I needed more info. (Really don't tell him). I respect Tony Hathaway..He has 10,000 jumps..Good God thats a lot. Oren and Laura who are on here I respect. And I ask them several questions about life in general. I respect HeatherB who corrects my speling mistakes. I respect my riggers who know more about gear than I will ever know. I respect lots of folks...I respect the students who come out for the FJC and try to learn something that scares the hell out of most of the population...I respect the tandem student that puts his fears aside to push their personal limits. I don't respect a person with 100 jumps that thinks they know it all...I don't respect a student that will not listen....I don't respect a tandem student that makes one jump yet acts like an experienced jumper. I respect everyone till they prove me wrong...except for cats...I hate cats. QuoteYou seem to mistake "questioning" with "arguing". If it starts with you don't know...Its an argument. If you have to use Well in my canopy control class I was told..... Then you don't know. you are being a parrot...But some confuse haveing book learning with knowledge....Big difference. There is an old Tshirt saying. It says "At 2,000 feet the last thing you need is a college education". QuoteHowever, Ron....everyone isn't like you. Yep my friends told me to get the Stiletto 97...I bought a 120..And hooked that fucker in on the third jump. I was never as cocky as some of todays jumpers...I was eager as hell, and I listened to EVERYONE. But I was still stupid, and what I thought I knew was less than I did know. I bet its the same with you...But maybe you have just not realized that yet. QuoteI can almost with a 100% certainty say that not all newbies are like you were If they were my life would be easy...I listen to those with more experience. QuoteI can also say that I bet that very few newbies are as stupid as you treat them... And I bet there are plenty that are and just don't know they are. QuoteBillvon....he and I have disagreed about things - but I have learned SO SO SO MUCH from just reading what he writes. he writes with a subtlety that just draws my interest when I see his name on a post...and he has earned respect from me as much from his experience as he has from the way that he treats others. Ya know I get PM's about how people listen to everything I say...Huh...Funny huh? Some don't like how I say it...But I don't like how some people don't listen so I guess we are even then. Anyway...Im done here. This thread has been done about 100 times on here. The funny thing is the guys who used to argue your side are now on the other side and the newer jumpers are on their old side. Notice how most of the guys with a lot of experience say that younger jumpers should not teach...and the younger jumpers say they should? Kinda funny really. And the reason that people think Im an ass is I don't just put my two cents in and leave...I, like a dumbass, actually try to get people to listen. My life would be much happier if I just didn't give a shit about the newer jumpers."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #82 March 8, 2004 QuoteYet it seems like someone could shut up, follow you around for 4 months, absorb every word you say - they could tape record you and play it back while they sleep - they could read every book out there, look at every website - they could try to become a mini-ron by trying to absorb your very essense... yet they would "know nothing" because in that 4 months they only got 50 jumps. they can have no opinion or useful information to share with anyone else because they are still 'newbies'... I think the issue isn't what they know, but what they don't know and not knowing that they don't know it. I got in a bad off landing yesterday that could've easily led to an incident(landed next to a busy highway and my canopy partially went up onto the road). I got into that situation because of things I didn't know, stuff that wasn't obvious to me at the time but sure as hell is today. I'm sure I have a lot more of those mistakes to make and there will be a lot more things that are obvious to me after I make those mistakes. If I teach people then, I can help to make sure they avoid those potential mistakes or work to minimize the consquences of them. If I try teach them today, I don't know about those mistakes so I could actually end up leading them into those dangers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #83 March 8, 2004 QuoteI think the issue isn't what they know, but what they don't know and not knowing that they don't know it. Bingo. QuoteI got in a bad off landing yesterday that could've easily led to an incident(landed next to a busy highway and my canopy partially went up onto the road). I got into that situation because of things I didn't know, stuff that wasn't obvious to me at the time but sure as hell is today. I knew about that danger...read this. I also know..or rather heard about a jumper in Ark. that landed fine, and then his parachute got hit by a train. QuoteI'm sure I have a lot more of those mistakes to make and there will be a lot more things that are obvious to me after I make those mistakes. If I teach people then, I can help to make sure they avoid those potential mistakes or work to minimize the consquences of them. If I try teach them today, I don't know about those mistakes so I could actually end up leading them into those dangers. Yep, I have heard low timers tell other people to land near roads...Since it makes it easy to get into the recovery vehical....Bet they never thought it could kill them...Now you know, and I hope others now know."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,402 #84 March 8, 2004 >Anyway...Im done here. Agreed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
