What if? (Toggle torn off)

[Sabre2th 0]

If your toggle tore off during opening, and you held the canopy stable with the opposite (since even released there may be "some" tension on the steering lines), what should you do? Can you:

1. Cut the other toggle via hook knife, and land on rears?
2. Chop

Thanks for the info.

Edited because I suck at spuelliong

Nick.

Those who dance, are cosidered insane by those who can't hear the music.

[Dougiefresh 0]

If I can hold the canopy stable, I'm gonna try my flare a few times, then land the sucker.

If I can't control it easily, see ya.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams

[mnealtx 0]

I'd try releasing the other brake and see if it's controllable. I don't think I'd cut off the other toggle.

Do some rear riser turns and flares. If it's controllable, ride it in. If not, chop it.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[pilotdave 0]

Personally the next time I can't steer or flare properly with toggles, I'm probably cutting away (unless I've recently done a lot of practice on rear risers). I tried landing on rear risers once when one brakeline was stuck and it didn't go so well. I know another jumper (much more experienced than me) that broke his back trying to land on rear risers after a steering line broke.

Not something I plan to try again anytime soon if I don't have to... not without specifically practicing it first anyway.

Dave

[skyhighkiy 0]

Quote

I'm gonna try my flare a few times

assuming you mean w/ your rears, because your steering line will be flapping in the wind w/ no toggle to hold the line in the guide ring.


I'm curious about what you guys mean by "holding the canopy stable" ??

BE THE BUDDHA!

[Sabre2th 0]

I mean Stable, because, with one steering line compleatly removed, the other will have some tension on the back of the canopy, and you will have to compensate by either pulling the opposite rear riser, or releasing the tension (cut the remaining toggle) to even out the trailing edge of the wing.

Otherwise you will have a slight turn to the side with the toggle intact. No?

Nick.

Those who dance, are cosidered insane by those who can't hear the music.

[skyhighkiy 0]

so that means you'll be comming in with one toggle and one riser???????

....like...planning on landing it that way?

if you need to throw in some rear riser input because your brake lines are too short, chop the other off or chop the canopy...



Edit to add: if you did mean landing it this way, take a look at some diagrams about distortion of the canopy from different types of input (riser vs. toggle, shifting weight vs. pulling something down, pulling apart vs. pulling down of rears, etc, etc, etc)

BE THE BUDDHA!

[LawnDart21 0]

If you lose a toggle and unstow the other brake to full flight, the canopy will fly straight. The full flight setting (where the toggle attaches to the line) on control lines is designed so that when the toggle stops at the guide ring, their is enough line above the ring so as not cause any tail deflection. If you see tail deflection on any canopy in full flight then the steering lines are too short. (there are some exceptions to this, such as a person with short arms that has their steering lines shorten to assist them to get a better flare, in full flight their tails may show some uniform deflection on each side)

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Sabre2th 0]

Lol No, I was wondering what everyone here would do, try to land on rears, or chop. and what, if anything, to do with the remaining toggle.


That would be a messed up landing tho

Nick.

Those who dance, are cosidered insane by those who can't hear the music.

[Sabre2th 0]

Thats what I thought too. My canopy's tail is nice and straight, I have seen other that are not tho.

Nick.

Those who dance, are cosidered insane by those who can't hear the music.

[Dougiefresh 0]

Quote

you mean w/ your rears

I don't have much choice, do I?

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams

[skyhighkiy 0]

would make for one hell of an eventful landing!!!

and definately beer worthy!

BE THE BUDDHA!

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

If your toggle tore off during opening, and you held the canopy stable with the opposite (since even released there may be "some" tension on the steering lines), what should you do? Can you:

1. Cut the other toggle via hook knife, and land on rears?
2. Chop
[

1. With the toggles released there won't be any tension on the steering lines unless you've let the brake lines shrink too much. You won't need to cut anything.

2. It depends on the canopy. With a 245 square foot F111 seven cell I'd land it. With my Samurai 105 I'd trust my reserve pack job more than my ability to safely land on rear risers.

[GeordieSkydiver 0]

I saw a guy at OFR who snapped one brake line, he released the other and steered/landed using rear risers.

He landed a little harder as his flare wasn't so good, but it was workable.

Lee _______________________________

In a world full of people, only some want to fly, is that not crazy?
http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk

[billvon 2,435]

>the other will have some tension on the back of the canopy . . .

It shouldn't, unless your canopy is mistrimmed. The brake lines should bow out and not deflect the tail during full flight. If not, either lenghten the brake lines or get the canopy retrimmed. Not only will a deflected tail make it hard to fly when you lose your toggle, it will cause you problems with penetration and landing performance.

[rsein 0]

It all depends... Have you done much rear riser turns/flares up high before? Do you know what a high speed stall is and how to prevent it? Have you ever land on your rears before? Is it windy today? etc.
This is what I would do:
Release the other toggle, fly to a open space where other jumpers do not usually land. Fly a good pattern to your spot and land up wind.

If you are unsure that you can do all this safely, then, (altittude depending) chop it.

If too low to even chop it, fly to an open space, flare with rears and PLF!
A sprain ancle is much better than a line sretch touch down

Edit to add: I have landed a Vengeance 97 and a Velocity 90 on rears (windy days) just to learn and prepare for something like what you ask.

HISPA #5

[rsein 0]

I tried landing on rear risers once when one brakeline was stuck and it didn't go so well. ***


That is a different story... when you have a brakeline stuck you have a canopy that is in half brakes. It is landable but I have seen a few people (some good friends of mine) getting hurt landing a canopy in that configuration. I would personally chop that canopy.

That is exactly why people should not wait until 1,000 ft to release their brakes. You would limit your choices.

HISPA #5

[JYorkster 0]

Been there, done that...

As others have already said, there should be no control problem once the unbroken steering line is released. No need to get out the hook knife.

As for landing it, it should be fairly simple with a reasonable wingloading and a current jumper. I landed my Saber 170 (loaded at about 1.1)on rear risers just as softly as I would have with toggles. Those that watched me land didn't even notice a difference until I showed them the unattached toggle in my hand.

This may be another argument for not downsizing too quickly (or at all). Had I been under a ridiculously small canopy, I may have chosen to chop it and go to an equally ridiculously small reserve, but at least it would have toggles.

As has also been noted, experience helps. Practice flying with your risers to see what capabilities and limitations you have. Get some basic CRW training to make you really learn the flight characteristics of all your control options. That way if (when) the time comes, you can make an informed decision about whether or not to chop.

Rock

[hottamaly 1]

Quote

I saw a guy at OFR who snapped one brake line, he released the other and steered/landed using rear risers.

He landed a little harder as his flare wasn't so good,
but it was workable.

I was there and if I remember right, he chopped it. I've been known for a poor memory though,

I would chop it. I don't think I have enough strength to do a rear riser flare.

Skydiving gave me a reason to live
I'm not afraid of what I'll miss when I die...I'm afraid of what I'll miss as I live

[GeordieSkydiver 0]

Quote

I was there and if I remember right, he chopped it. I've been known for a poor memory though,

I would chop it. I don't think I have enough strength to do a rear riser flare.

He didn't, he landed it, he landed right next to me, I followed him down in the pattern, cos I wanted to watch what happened. I touched down seconds before he did.

I've spoke to him on here, so maybe he'll pipe up.

There was a few malfunctions that weekend (mine included) so maybe someone else had a similar mal and did chop.

Lee _______________________________

In a world full of people, only some want to fly, is that not crazy?
http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk

[dreamsville 0]

If you don't have enough altitude to chop (which I recommend if you have little experience with rear-riser flares), bear in mind that the flare input is MUCH LESS on the rear risers for the same amount of canopy flare, as compared to the brakes. My Stilleto 135 may have over a foot of flare on the brack lines to about flatten the canopy, while the input for the same effect with the rear risers is about 3 inches.
|

I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[pilotdave 0]

No the brake wasn't stowed.... I don't know what it was stuck on, but it happened after unstowing. I had a brake fire....I swear it was the right brake that fired, putting me into a left hand spiral (but it's definitely possible I mis-remembered). Grabbed the brakes, came out of the spiral, and made a right turn toward the DZ. I was already too low to make it back (long spot, took too long to get the spiral stopped), so I started heading for a back yard. I was at 1100 feet when I first tried a left turn. I could get the toggle about down to my shoulder and no further. Too late to mess with it so I just grabbed the rear risers, did one practice flare on downwind, and set myself up for an open area.

Didn't prepare to PLF and landed very hard, twisting a knee (no serious injury), putting me out for about 6 weeks. Not sure if I flared late or flared too hard and stalled, but either way it was as if I hadn't flared at all, but I was expecting a softer landing so I wasn't ready to hit so hard. I'd DEFINITELY suggest PLFing whether you think you need to or not....it all happens very fast.

I just got lucky that an old paratrooper happened to be standing there watching the landing. He didn't seem overly concerned.... looked like a normal landing to him! His first comment was "you're lucky you missed the dog shit."

Dave

[sundevil777 94]

Some swoopers on little canopies use the risers to flare regularly.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Amazon 7]

I had one get loose at the Mardi Gras boogie last spring...( someone put it on wrong) When I unstowed the brakes.. OOOPS.. there went the left steering line trailing out behind the canopy while I am sitting there holding the toggle in my hand.

At first I thought.. oh god time to chop.. NOW.. here I am hanging out a mile from the DZ .. over a Bayou.. lookin down into the gathering gloom of sunset..... and thinking about looking for my canopy at night.. with SWAMP THING and his reptilian buddies watching me in the dark...... uh huh right..lets see if we can fly this.

SO I did a controllability check... riser turns.... riser flares... all the while flying back to the airport at Moss Point. there was a bit of a right turn in the canopy... but manageble.... so I flew it.. set up and butt slid in a rear riser flare....in no wind.. on my Triathalon.

NOW on the other hand.. would I do that under my Samurai.. I have no idea how controllable it would be.. It has a tendency to be very reactive to any toggle or harness or riser input.... IF.. I could fly it straight.. and flare it.. I may cut the brake provided it did not start into a spin while trying to get the other brake released. As long as its controllable... and its flying ok.. its a known quantity....and even though i have a jump on my reserve.. I would stick with the controllable and landable canopy over my head.

The trick is.. PRACTICE.. can you fly it.. and HAVE you flown it under varying conditions... including landing on rear risers in optimal conditions.. so you are closer to knowing what to expect in less than optimal conditions.... that is why we train for all the possible things that can occur.. leading to cutaways... spinners.. line twists..broken lines... etc..so why should canopy flight be any different. Get out high and FLY your canopy.. talk with an instructor for ideas of things to do under canopy. In the end.. knowledge of how it flies can only help you .

[mattlyle 0]

I had this happen actually about 6 weeks ago. Kind of freaky since it was on a canopy with about 80 jumps at the time :-/

Anyway, it was a fairly brisk opening... nothing bad, but worse than usual. I look up and the left steering line has sheered off and is trailing behind the canopy in the wind... The right toggle was still stowed fine... so obviously I was spinning, so releasing the right toggle restored normal flight. I was at around 2000 feet, so plenty of time to make a decision... I *could* chop it, but the parachute is flying perfectly fine, it's just the flare you have to consider. It's easy to fly the landing pattern using risers, so I practiced a few rear riser flares and honestly I felt perfectly confident I could land the sucker without a problem (for me it's a littler easier than some of you... it's a Lotus 190 loaded at 1.1)

So I just sat in rear risers to let the landing pattern clear out a little, then came in and flared using rear risers... even stood up the landing. Obviously ready to butt slide it in, but landing on that canopy is so easy, so I wasn't concerned... it flared awesome and landed easily in rears.

People were looking at me a little funny because they noticed I didn't flare (it looks different with the whole trailing edge coming down, not just where the brake lines attach), and holding the sheered off toggle in my hand as I walked back through the packing area to the loft was amusing.

The hardest part is actually hanging onto the rear risers. The front riser dive loops make it really easy, but the risers themselves are pretty slick, so it's harder to grip. I also notice I pulled one down a slight bit faster because it's not as smooth as toggles... takes more muscle which I wasn't as precise with.

When we got it back to the loft we saw that the line had sheered where it was fingertrapped, and it was only like a 1-inch long fingertrap, so they thought maybe that all the force was applied to that short area, and it exploded?!

All in all I'm glad I didn't chop. It was a perfectly functional canopy, so why get rid of it and be down to my last shot? I understood canopy flying enough to be safe landing with rear risers, even if it might not be as perfect or graceful.