Low pulls and the rules

[JaapSuter 0]

Hi,

does anybody know what the rules are for low-pulls? I'm especially interested in Canadian and CSPA law, but like to hear about the USPA rules too. Are there laws, rules, guidelines or DZ specifics?

I did spend two minutes looking at the online SIM, but couldn't find much information.

For the record, I'm often called a high puller (> 3500), but I've been skydiving my base-rig recently wearing a belly-mount reserve. As far as I'm concerned, the belly-mount is purely for show, and I'll happily smoke my base-rig a little lower (<= 2000). However, I don't want to break any laws or rules, nor do I want to piss off my DZO.

Oops, maybe somebody will actually read this and put me on a blacklist. Hi Rob!

Cheers,

Jaap Suter

[PhreeZone 15]

You probally already are breaking the rules because the Cadanian rules are structred just like the FAA rules in which you need to jump a TSO'd dual parachute container. The Belly mount does not count because the harness is not certified.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

the Cadanian rules are structred just like the FAA rules in which you need to jump a TSO'd dual parachute container.

I discussed this with a bunch of people, and Canada is a lot more flexible apparently. I was not breaking any laws; at most a guideline.

As far as I know, that's why it is much easier to be a small container or canopy manufacterer in Canada, because you don't have to pay to get TSO approval. Unless you want to start selling in The States of course.

The Canadian repack cyle is only a recommended guideline too, and it is up to dropzones to enforce it, recommend it, or not care at all.

That is to my knowledge. Somebody that knows what he's talking about, please step in.

Cheers,

Jaap

[Andrewwhyte 1]

YOU ARE SO BUSTED.

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

YOU ARE SO BUSTED.

Ah crap...

Hey, nothing wrong with opening at 2k, right? You do it all the time...

[Andrewwhyte 1]

For the record:
TSO'd gear is not manditory in Canada by decree of either Transport Canada or CSPA.
CSPA's equipment doctrine mandates two canopies.
Minimum opening altitude for A CoPs or higher is 2200'. It is not the law but it is the rule at our DZ. If you break the min opening BSR, your insurance is not valid, if your insurance is not valid you may not jump, therefore, open your damn parachute.

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

Minimum opening altitude is 2200'. It is not the law but it is the rule at our DZ.

Thanks Andrew. Sorry if my post came off a little rebellious. I will always respect DZ rules, since it is their hospitality that allows me to skydive in the first place.

In fact, I don't think I'll take my base-rig for more skydives. Packing takes too long. I'll slap it back in that student rig and take it for normal skydives. Of course, opening plenty high again (3.5) because I wouldn't trust my normal packjob.

Thanks!

Jaap

[tombuch 0]

Quote

does anybody know what the rules are for low-pulls? I'm especially interested in Canadian and CSPA law, but like to hear about the USPA rules too. Are there laws, rules, guidelines or DZ specifics?

I did spend two minutes looking at the online SIM, but couldn't find much information.

In the United States the regulations covering pening altitudes are by USPA, not FAA. The regulations are covered in the Basic Safety Requirements, section G as follows:

Tandem-4,500 feet AGL
All student and A license holders-3,000 feet AGL
B-license holders-2,500 feet AGL
C and D license Holders-2,000 feet AGL

All USPA drop zones agree to follow the BSR's, so breaking one is a pretty big deal. With that said, I've watched a few very low openings, and usually handle them on a case by case basis. I hate intentional low openings by inexperienced jumpers on a busy weekend. I can be convinced to look the other way on a weekday, as long as the violation is not too obvious, and the jumper is very experienced and current. The intensity of enforcement is really drop zone dependent.

On the issue of using a BASE rig...that is an FAA bust in the United States, and I won't tolerate it at all. Period. Using non-TSO'ed gear in the United States puts the pilot and drop zone at risk, and our pilots really depend on us all to keep them trouble free. When you are in the United States, please use your BASE rig for BASE jumps.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

Using non-TSO'ed gear in the United States puts the pilot and drop zone at risk, and our pilots really depend on us all to keep them trouble free.

Absolutely. This is why I asked, since I don't want to cause any trouble.

Quote

When you are in the United States, please use your BASE rig for BASE jumps.

I most certainly will. Thanks for explaining Tom!

[speedy 0]

Quote

I'll happily smoke my base-rig a little lower (<= 2000).

and I have exited a c182 with my sport rig at < 1700 ft

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[veter_ 0]

How about using BASE canopy with skydiving container? Afterall, it's just a canopy.

[skybill 19]

Hi Jaap,
Bottom line,"DON'T BOUNCE!!!!!!!!" I don't know about Canada but unless the rules have changed (they probably have with all these whiney ass hi-puller wierdos taking over the sport!!) 2.5K if you are a student, D-license is 2K. I miss the old daze when we would take a 10 man to 3.5K break, turn track and dump at 2.5K. And like that's considered conservatively high!! Like, 1000' or 5 seconds to get away from each other "should be enough time!!! Now everyone won't jumo unless they have a Cypress and 3 kinds of audible alts!!! What ever happened to using your eyeballs to check alt????

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[tombuch 0]

Quote

How about using BASE canopy with skydiving container? Afterall, it's just a canopy.

I have no problem with that from a legal standpoint. Just be aware that opening characteristics can be very different. Most BASE canopies are designed for best openings at slow descent speeds with no horizontal movement. Also consider the possible loss of a direct bag system unless it is attached to the canopy. Also consider the effect of a large BASE specific pilot chute at terminal velocity. With all that said, some BASE canopies can be packed for terminal openings from very big objects, and pilot chutes can be matched for airplane style openings. It can work.

My point is that if you are going to use a BASE specific main parachute from an airplane, think the process through, just as you would if using a skydiving specific parachute for a selected BASE jump. If you lack experience, talk it out with a rigger who understands BASE equipment. Heck, even if you are the worlds most experienced BASE jumper, anytime you change equipment or technique it's a good idea to chat about your plans with other jumpers first as a mean of peer review.

Be safe, have fun.

(...adding BASE-128 to my sig for this post)
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[dropoutdave 0]

Quote

All student and A license holders-3,000 feet AGL
B-license holders-2,500 feet AGL
C and D license Holders-2,000 feet AGL

Is there any reason at all why there should be different minimum altitudes? Under canpoy i've had people go past me in freefall because they were pulling low and i've gone past people in freefall because they pulled high. For the sake of 5 seconds extra freefall is it really worth putting people at risk? Can't see any logic in it at all.

------------------------------------------------------
May Contain Nut traces......

[Martini 0]

The reasoning behind different opening altitudes for low-time jumpers is pretty clear, lack of experience decreases the safety margin when the time arrives in the skydive to save your own life and possibly deal with a malfunction. Low-timers are also typically less altitude and speed aware, a higher pull altitude goal gives them more slack. The USPA has developed these minimum altitudes to decrease injury in the sport.
Your imposing your idea of how much freefall is worthwhile or what pull altitude is reasonable on others is totally bogus, you have neither the experience nor the personal right to do so. If I decide to do a 2500' hop and pop what business is it of yours? Are you thinking of deciding for others what canopy and size to fly as well? BTW most experienced jumpers (generally jumping snivelly canopies) pull well above 2k. Their decision of when to pull was made by experience and reason not by the USPA or narrow minded whiners.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[riggerrob 558]

The whole concept of senior license holders pulling lower (i.e. 2 grand) is old school.
Back when the rule was written, everyone jumped 220 square foot canopies that opened quickly and descended slowly. Even a rapidly spinning mal on a 220 rarely descended half as fast as a spinning mal on a modern 100 square footer.
Nowadays few senior jumpers pull below 2500' and many prefer the extra "hang time" that comes after pulling at 3000'.

The only time you should not pull above 3000' is during busy boogies, when there are dozens of jumpers in the air, way more than one brain can keep track of.

[Zennie 0]

Quote

How about using BASE canopy with skydiving container? Afterall, it's just a canopy.

Well, a BASE canopy has quite a few differences from your typical skydiving canopy (low aspect ratio, F-111, Dacron lines, etc). The better analogy is that a skydiving container is just a container.

You can freepack (i.e. no bag) a BASE canopy with a BASE packjob into a sufficiently large skydiving container. If you use a 9' bridle & a BASE PC you pretty much have a "legal" BASE setup at that point.

I wouldn't smoke it down to 300 at terminal like I would with a fully dedicated BASE system. But I wouldn't be uncomfortable pulling at 500 or so.

Of course, pretty much the rest of the dropzone WOULD probably be uncomfortable seeing something like that.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[jose 0]

Quote

I miss the old daze when we would take a 10 man to 3.5K break, turn track and dump at 2.5K. And like that's considered conservatively high!! Like, 1000' or 5 seconds to get away from each other "should be enough time!!! Now everyone won't jumo unless they have a Cypress and 3 kinds of audible alts!!! What ever happened to using your eyeballs to check alt????

There are very good reasons for the way things are now. Freefall speeds are greatly increased when freeflying and things happen very very fast at these speeds. During your 10 ways, not only are you on a average traveling up to 80 MPH slower, you have the ability to look at the ground during the whole jump. In freeflying, especially headdown, you are not always able to keep an eye on the big rock. This is why we wear 2-3 audibles in addition to our wrist alti. Its all about safety for what freeflyers do, so why knock it just because its not your cup of tea? Belly flying skills and needs do not always apply to other disciplines.

[jose 0]

Quote

[
All USPA drop zones agree to follow the BSR's, so breaking one is a pretty big deal. I can be convinced to look the other way on a weekday, as long as the violation is not too obvious, and the jumper is very experienced and current. The intensity of enforcement is really drop zone dependent.

Tom,

So whats with the low pull contests that seem to happen at WFFC with no BSR enforcements? Is it that the event is so big that it is hard to find the ones responsible for this kind of stupidity? Or is it that there is a deficiency in how these large scale events are treated safety wise?

B.

[jose 0]

Quote

Is there any reason at all why there should be different minimum altitudes? Under canpoy i've had people go past me in freefall because they were pulling low and i've gone past people in freefall because they pulled high. For the sake of 5 seconds extra freefall is it really worth putting people at risk? Can't see any logic in it at all.

This sounds like there is a communication problem within your group. Opening alti's need to be covered before leaving the aircraft, and sometimes more than once for low time jumpers that have their mind on more than one thing. I see this to be one of the common problems with groups in your jump #'s, I know this because I was there too. I have been on several jumps where all hell broke loose and people were everywhere.

Things to think about:
- If people are sniveling past you, is opening alti the real problem, or seperation.
- If they wern't in your group, there is a group seperation problem at the aircraft. Remind the following group to give you plenty based on ground speed.
- In a group, you must open at the same alti, as predetermined. I really dont care what alti, as long as you are all doing the same and the group behind you knows what that alti is.
- If you covered all your bases, and these things don't improve, you might want to not jump with them until they get thier shit together.

[Martini 0]

Quote

The whole concept of senior license holders pulling lower (i.e. 2 grand) is old school.
Back when the rule was written, everyone jumped 220 square foot canopies that opened quickly and descended slowly. Even a rapidly spinning mal on a 220 rarely descended half as fast as a spinning mal on a modern 100 square footer.
Nowadays few senior jumpers pull below 2500' and many prefer the extra "hang time" that comes after pulling at 3000'.

Mostly I agree, Rob, but still think that its important that newer jumpers are better off throwing much higher than 2.5k. I generally throw at or just under 3k with a very snivelly canopy but like to hum it down a lot lower on wingsuit jumps with my very fast opening and reliable Sabre, more like 2k. Since our DZ has a minimum deployment policy of 2.5k I never officially throw lower than that though.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[skybill 19]

Hi Jose,
Dude, like 80 mph slower eh? Guess again? Gutter gear, Pioneer suits, French boots, Bell helmets yer talkin the home sick brick club!!!! BTW I still jump and I know all about this koolie head down, head up and doing it sideways too. Flying butt to earth is nothing new, watch "Freak Brothers Convention" video circa 1982!! Anyway, this thread is suppose to be about "Low Pulls!!" I still consider 2K as my "Hard deck" for general skydiving. If things get exotic, e.g. head down, micro hi-performance canopys, etc., I would adjust accordingly. And if yer doing head down and you ain't payin' attention to the ground, you gonna' make a real interesing crater!! Reaper beepers are nice accessories to but should not replace your eyeballs!! I use a beeper but I don't trust any of them. If you've been in freefall for a while and your beeper hasn't gone off, I'd scrutinize where I'm at for about a new york second and probably pull!! If you "trust" your beeper that much, go ahead and wait.
Don't blow me off because we did 10 man! That was over 35 years ago!! I've been here every step of the way and I'm not leaving! BTW The further back you were from the exit (base and pin were always first out till things got exotic) the longer you got to go "Head Down" (nothing new) to get to the star. Total awareness of the people in front of you, behind you, the star and the ground was paramount!!! Go to www.airtrash.com and go into the blast from the past section and read the hisory of RW by Pat Works SCS#1 and enjoy. It has been a long but fun ride!
PS. Where the hell were you 40 years ago? I was Skydiving!!!and I still am today!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[jose 0]

Your reply is exactly what I was expecting. Out of context and sarcastic. You can try to undermine me all you want, your only showing your underbelly....... You know exactly what I am talking about, but decide to act immature. Why are so many old timers threatened by freeflyers?

[skybill 19]

Hi Jose,
Well, May the 8th will be the 41st anniv of my first jump and I hope to celebrate on that day if not the weekend! That's 41 continuous consecutive years by the way. 41 years ago there was no RW competition. Just Style and Accuracy and us "Fun Jumpers" Funny about contempt, it was around then too!! Somebody always had to bitch about sombody else "NOT" doing what they do as un cool, hahahah!! Oh well! Oh Brother! I've done Style, I've done Accuracy (down wind with cheap-po 7-TU's), I've done Fun Jumps aka Relative work, 10-man and sequential, I've done some free-style and some head down (V-RW) too!!!!!!! To each his own!! I can't speak for other "old Timers" being threatened by V-RW freaks but I don't think it is being threatened as much as it is just plain old contempt as I said above!! Seems like not too many years ago, people would try to lurk the hot-shot RW dives and get blown off. (been going on for years,hell, I got blown off too!) so they would go "do their own thing" and try pawn it off as V-RW or what ever!! Now they who march to the beat of a different drummer and have their own following!! I just hope it's not the pied piper and we're all just rats!!!!!
The point I was tying to pick up on was the thing about your claim that during a V-RW desent you don't have the ability to see the ground too well!! Wow! personally I'd make it a point to see the ground but since I'm an old fart I guess to you I don't count. Sorry I blew your feathers up but if you want to see how the other half lives, you are welcome on any of my dives. We usually break about 4K and generally we have a good time! One thing that bugs me though is the new generation being so "device dependant!" I've heard people remark that they refuse to jump unless they have an AAD in their rig!! Others get blown away if they don't have their beeper or alt.!! By now you probably have a good visual "feel" of 3 grand and your alti. and beeper should only be "back-up" not "primary!"
Maintaining good aerial/ground awareness is no low-pull!!!!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out