jedisk8r 0 #1 March 30, 2004 Ok, so now that i have done my first tandem jump, I wanted to see what dropzone.com folks thought about how I should approach my training. Should I do tandem progression or just jump right into AFF? Also is there a difference in the amount of time it takes to be licensed (not that I want to rush it, I want to be comfortable, very well trained and confident in my training. So, what do you think? Thanks. All Feedback Greatly Appreciated I don't really feel qualified to say it yet but out of genuine respect to everyone else on this site... ....Blue Skies! ***"Life Moves Pretty Fast, If You Don't Look Around Once In A While You Might Miss It!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 March 30, 2004 It depends on the DZ. My DZ offers a great tandem progression, you do 2 working tandems (you do turns, handle touches, forward movement, deploy the canopy and help fly the canopy home) that really teaches you a lot. After that you go through a 4hr transition course and drop into the AFF program at basically a Level3. From what I've seen, the learning curve that transisiton students have over regular AFF students is much better. They tend to learn faster and do better, especially with their canopy control. Also, this depends on the DZ, but I know at my DZ the tandem progression method ends up saving students a bit over $300 compared to regular AFF. Also, I guess this helps, but my DZ uses USPA Coaches to their fullest and have integrated aspects of Skydive U into the training. We have students walking away with 25jumps and the A flying so much better then I did when I had 150 jumps that's almost frustrating for me.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #3 March 30, 2004 If you've never done a skydive do a tandem. you get to enjoy rather than concentrate on a million different things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzit 0 #4 March 30, 2004 Even though it may sound strange coming from an AFF Instructor, I have to agree with Dave and recommend Tandem progression. Many, many individuals come out to make their first jump and do an AFF jump, just to leave disappointed because they didn't perform their assigned tasks well. That first jump is overwhelming, a working tandem allows you to get a taste, learn some stuff, and leave feeling that you had a good time. By the time you finish your second working tandem, you will be well on your way to learning the basics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dj-seus 0 #5 March 30, 2004 greets (i'm not an instructer, so this opinion should be taken for face value only - it's just my opinion) when i think about my first jump (AFF), it amazes me that despite all the millions of things i had to think about, and all the millions of ways that things can go wrong, everything went smoothly and safely... that's not to say that i didn't feel confident and ready at the time, because i did... in fact, i doubt there would've been any way that somebody could have stopped me from jumping out of that plane... ;) but as anyone that spends any amount of time in this sport realizes, the more you learn, the more you have left to learn. After every skill you master, there will be a thousand new skills you'll need to master that will pop up on you... it is this attitude that keeps us safe... i passed AFF with no repeats or problems, but i think someday soon i may do a tandem jump, just to see what it's like... if i knew then what i know now, i probably would have done a tandem progression and i'll tell ya why... it's very tricky for a newbie to figure out canopy control from watching others fly or from videos... having never done it before, it's an experience unlike anything... after you have just a little experience, you can watch someone else and imagine in your head exactly what needs to be done in a particular situation (like a braked turn), whereas somebody that has very little canopy experience will not really understand until they are in that situation themselves... so i could see how a student on a tandem progression could initially start out as a better canopy pilot... just some thoughts... sorry for the long length... ciao -dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #6 March 30, 2004 The TAF tandem progression will get you better results for learning. The 1 on 1 training you get doing the tandems and landing the canopy with the Instructor will help you learn faster. "BUT", make sure the tandem instructor is AFF rated, and can possibly do ALL you jumps with you? Some tandem instructors are just that, "tandem instructors". Some will just tell you to just "put your legs on my ass" and leave them there so they dont get in their way, and some could care less what your body position is or what your legs and feet are doing during the tandems. This will only lead to you having BAD body position and BAD leg awarness during your AFF segment of your TAF progression. Thus a curtain backsliding spin with your AFF Instuctor holding onto you with both hands sticking his tongue out at you? I do ALL my own Private Training now, from the 2 tandems, the FJC,and all the AFF jumps so I dont have to put up with a bad tandem master anymore. Just my .02 from EXPERIENCE Be safe.www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #7 March 31, 2004 one tandem to see if you like it and to get over the rush then aff starting with leval 1 you will learn the most this way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #8 March 31, 2004 Since you posted this in two different locations, so shall my reply be. For a TM that isn't an AFF-I, I'm insulted. Have you seen the new certification program that is used for TMs? You have to be a coach and you have to go through regular freefall eval dives to get the rating. So you know some about body position. When I train a CatA tandem, it takes me roughly 30 minutes. The dive is a simple dive, just handle touches, alti checks, arm turns and pulling. During that entire time, I'm working on their body position (even if the student doesn't realize it). Oh, and for you AFF instructors out there, while talking to the student, I use my hands, giving hand signals that correspond with what I'm talking about. I don't explain them and I don't use them on the jump, but after 2 jumps with me talking and using handsignals, the signals come to them quicker. Even though they didn't know they were being trained for them.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prost 0 #9 March 31, 2004 Talk to the AFF instructors at the Drop Zone where you will be jumping. They will have a good feel for how well the tandem progression has trained students once they get to them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jedisk8r 0 #10 March 31, 2004 Wow, alot of opinions out there, I guess the consensus is to do tandem progression in conjunction with AFF, while making sure my DZ programs are very well integrated, Sound About Right? I really appreciate everyones feedback here you all are awesome ***"Life Moves Pretty Fast, If You Don't Look Around Once In A While You Might Miss It!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #11 March 31, 2004 As I said..... *** Evidently Dave, you have MISSED the "some" in my reply to her? Glad your an exception!Keep up the good work!www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #12 March 31, 2004 QuoteFor a TM that isn't an AFF-I, I'm insulted. Have you seen the new certification program that is used for TMs? There is now a difference. Tandem Masters are certified by the manufacturer. "Tandem Instructors" have a USPA Instructor's rating. A TI can take a student through the entire program up to an "A" license. The only exception is that a TI cannot do a harness hold exit or pull for the student. Well... at least in the last version of the SIMs (2004) I read - has it changed? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #13 March 31, 2004 QuoteA TI can take a student through the entire program up to an "A" license. The only exception is that a TI cannot do a harness hold exit or pull for the student. Well... at least in the last version of the SIMs (2004) I read - has it changed? Since when can a student do a solo exit after just 2 tandems? The Instructor has to be AFF rated when a student is jumping with their own parachute and have a harness hold.www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #14 March 31, 2004 Right, a USPA TI can take a S/L student after a Cat D dive, although the SIM and IRM aren't real clear on if he/she can take an AFF student after a Cat D (after an unstability dive). I keep meaning to e-mail the USPA S&T folks about that.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #15 March 31, 2004 QuoteSince when can a student do a solo exit after just 2 tandems? Not after 2, but after 3. May go on a Cat D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #16 March 31, 2004 QuoteFor a TM that isn't an AFF-I, I'm insulted. Have you seen the new certification program that is used for TMs? You have to be a coach and you have to go through regular freefall eval dives to get the rating. So you know some about body position. Dave, I think you missed Ed's main point: as a dual-rated instructor (T and AFF), he is best able to take that student from zero to hero. I completly agree with him on that point. The absolute best example of the "one man show" is Paul Rafferty. There is a lot to be said for one-on-one instruction from start to finish. Tandem Progression (use whatever acronym you please) is fantastic for dropzones with fewer, but more qualified instructors which have a heavy student load. I can't imagine a scenario where taking a student on three training tandems, then taking him on a full altitude release dive (solo exit especially) without an AFF-rated I would be within the BSR's. Chuck (another dual-rated instructional machine) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #17 March 31, 2004 I see the point about 1 instructor through to the A license, I just felt it was an unfair slam on non-AFF TMs. As for doing 3 tandems then an AFF as a TM, that was Bigun talking about that, I was commenting about the possible grey area at Cat D, after atleast 1 AFF jump. Even if it is true, from the students I've seen, Cat D is a bit early to get away from an AFF instructor. With that said, I'm not an AFF, so take that comment with a grain of salt.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jedisk8r 0 #18 March 31, 2004 Ok so now you guys have totally lost me with all of the banter.... In layman terms what is my best bet. a- Find an Instructor with both T and AFF Instructor ratings that can manage my whole training, and incorporate 2 more tandem jumps at the beginning for hands on instruction b- Immediately start with AFF c - it doesn't matter, just work with what ever is available thanks guys."Life Moves Pretty Fast, If You Don't Look Around Once In A While You Might Miss It!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #19 March 31, 2004 You'll have to forgive us for diverging into a little discussion between instructors. You sort-of got it. 1. Do a tandem progression, have a dual rated instructor (AFF and TM) if possible, but that is not something that is life threating or even a bad thing. I have seen many good students benifit from having multipul instructors. If anything, it keeps students from getting the "MY instructor is god, is always right, etc" 2. Go the traditional AFF route. It works, it has worked for many years, although students tend to learn faster and do better with a good tandem transition method (just from what I've seen at various DZs). 3. Right you can work with whats available, but most likely there are other DZs in your area, find the one you like, that has the people you can like and has a training program that you feel like you will be able to learn from. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what a DZ does, if you don't feel comfortable learning there, then you won't learn. If you can find a DZ that you feel comfortable with what they tell you the training is, with the people and the vibe, then you'll have a good time and learn skydiving. If you want, feel free to tell us where you are and folks in that area could help you find a couple good DZs. You might even find someone here on DZ.com that jumps there as well.Edit: Other instructors will most likely chime in with what they think. That's another fun aspect of the sport, is that there is usually more then one way to do something, neither way may truely be the right way. However, two people will argue long and hard over many beers that their way is the only right way.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #20 March 31, 2004 Yes, exactly with Dave said... But I would suggest going somewhere that will let you attempt a solo exit with a tandem Instructor after 3 tandems. Be safe and have fun.www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jedisk8r 0 #21 March 31, 2004 Thanks for the feedback. I am actually in NYC so if you have any suggestions that would be great. Also my previous post was actually meant as a multiple choice question, but thats cool, I think I've got my answer. Any help on the DZ or instructor would be great."Life Moves Pretty Fast, If You Don't Look Around Once In A While You Might Miss It!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #22 March 31, 2004 Try these The Ranch Skydive Crosskeys Be safewww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #23 March 31, 2004 Above the Poconos Skydivers is another choice. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flyer2Diver 0 #24 March 31, 2004 I'm in NYC and doing tandem progression at The Ranch now - just finished my tandems last Saturday, next time (after the course this Sunday hopefully) I wear a rig myself.If you decide on The Ranch, I've got a car so let me know if you need a lift up there._______________________________ 30005KT 10SM SKC 23/05 A3006 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #25 March 31, 2004 Tell Andrey HEY from the west coast And Sabastian too when he get there after the long drive from Cali.... Be safe.www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
