Crossbrace + low jump numbers

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

It is incredibly unlikely that someone is going to "max out" any canopy in 200 jumps.

[Stumpy 256]

No i agree - but i was just curious i would imagine that smaller, x-braced, high performance canopies take a lot more time due to the size of the performance envelope.. just my thoughts thats all.

If it takes 2000 jumps to max out any canopy then presumably there aren't many people out there who should be flying anything much smaller than a 150??!

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Ron 7]

Quote

but would it not be true that it is going to take a lot longer to max out a canopy like yours than it is to max out something more docile and lightly loaded? Kind of like the difference between a van and a formula 1 car?

Chuck said it best.

I'm only adding this part...Chuck or me, hell almost anyone could not "Max out" ANY new canopy in 200 jumps.

I had 1500 jumps before I ever tried to land an accuracy canopy...I sucked at it. I did 160 jumps in ONE MTH, and I was still not hitting dead center all the time. In my time jumping an accuracy canopy (That was a big, boatlike, 7 cell) I maybe put 500-600 jumps on it in 3 years...And I still didn't "Max it out".

And that was just trying to do ONE thing well. and I was still not perfect.

CRW jumpers do hundereds of CRW jumps a year..and they would take more than 200 jumps to max out a canopy.

Some guy with 300 total jumps is not going to Max out a canopy in 200 jumps.

Think about it....Thats only 200 landings.

Thats not alot.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quote

If it takes 2000 jumps to max out any canopy then presumably there aren't many people out there who should be flying anything much smaller than a 150??!

and there are not.

Look at it this way....The PRO's..Guys that jump for a living, that even swoop for a living are jumping everyday and they jump canopies around 90-100 SF....What makes anyone think they are able to jump the same canopy as a PRO?

I don't see many people flying Extra 300's. Or many weekend riders with the SAME type of race bikes as the racers do. I have been driving a car for 15 years and I have NEVER driven a formula 1 racecar.

What makes a weekend fun jumper think he is able to fly the same canopy that a PRO does?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

then presumably there aren't many people out there who should be flying anything much smaller than a 150??!

You got that right, brother. It was not that long ago at all that a 150 was considered to be a very small canopy. When I first started jumping 150's (F111 nine-cells) people thought I was out of my mind. Same thing when Sabres came out in the smaller sizes. Nowadays, some people will arbitrarilly advise young jumpers that such canopies are great first or second mains after student status. That's nuts, but I read it on here and hear it in the field all the time. The bottom line here is that very, very few people have any business flying anything more HP than a Sabre2, Pilot, or Safire 2 and then not loaded beyond about 1.5:1. Very few skydivers these days keep a canopy long enough to exploit its full potential, instead "trading down" due to vanity, regardless of inexperience. Read some of the downsizing plans that people on here have posted and you will see what I mean. Many, many people list having put as little as 50 jumps on a main before they traded down. People will spit out as many cockamamie excuses as they can dream of to quantify their purchases, but in the end they are just asking for trouble. Wearing the label "freeflyer" does not mean that you "must" swoop, or "must" have a x-brace. Jumping the right tool for the job makes much more sense. I jump my Sabre2 as much as I do my Velo. There is nothing I can do under the Velo that I cannot do under the Sabre2. Yes, I lose some distance on swoop, but I turn it the same and land it the same.

Chuck

[Stumpy 256]

Thanks chuck - that was pretty much my lines of thinking but it does give a whole new light to watching the few hundred jump people coming in on their small stillettos and xfires etc.
I teach kitesurfing and the problem there is that anyone can buy any kite and there is no DZO or S&TA to stop them, hence 3 deaths in the last 6 months so i do appreciate where your coming from.
Going back to my original question though - when you "learnt" to fly your velocity did it take you longer to reach the limits than on your sabre, or did your extra experience by then mean that you got there quicker? (Or are you not there yet?!)
(I'm just very interested in canopy control and wish there were more courses around)

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[billvon 2,435]

>If it takes 2000 jumps to max out any canopy then presumably
>there aren't many people out there who should be flying anything
> much smaller than a 150??!

Took me about 1000 to max out my Sabre 150. You can speed that up with intensive training, and you might be able to get away with skipping some skills, but you are taking a risk by doing that.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Before I got my first crossbrace (a VX 74), I had jumped Stilletos (107 and 97 for over five years) there was nothing I could not do on those canopies. Before that, I had two Sabre 135's and two Monarch 135's. Before that, an Excallibur 150, etc, etc, back into history. There was nothing left to wring out on those canopies. That said, the "break-in" period on that first x-brace was much shorter than it would have been for someone who was only barely working their previous canopy. When I did get that first crossbrace, I actually found that I was getting more consistent swoops out of my other main, an Alpha 84. Eventually, I realized that the longer-diving ZP nine-cells were a smarter canopy for what I was doing at the time, so I sold my VX and jumped modified Cobalts for a while. I jumped them for two seasons on tour and had very respectable finishes (over many competitors under braced mains). Ultimately, when I could not get a single ounce more in distance (remember, I compete), I realized that I was going to have to get back under a braced canopy to remain competitive with my peers on tour. My setup is identical, my turns are identical, but it was the edge afforded me by my Velocity that got me the results I needed in that set of circumstances. Again, I still get remarkable swoops out of my Sabre2 97 and don't need to jump my velo to spank lesser pilots under their vanity canopies.

Chuck

[orbitjunkie 0]

Ron
so you edify me dude..if you think I am going to fast
what do you think about the others. I was trying to say that it takes alot to really max a canopy if you tell me it is more than I think then i will listen and take your advice and I will be here along time.
Edited for PA. Consider this the one warning.

[NeedToJump 0]

Quote

but sombody needs to tell you you are a dick regardless of knowledge

Yo Ron, you're a dick! Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

Craig - Ron is definitely not a dick, he's just very blunt and doesn't feel the need to sugar coat his opinions when he gives them. He will also only talk about thing he knows about - his opinion is definitely one to listen to if given.

Back to the topical stuff:

Quote

If it takes 2000 jumps to max out any canopy then presumably there aren't many people out there who should be flying anything much smaller than a 150??!

I've thought about this kind of thing a lot with my downsizing. I feel that I downsized very quickly regarding knowledge of canopy flight, but didn't know any better in the beginning.

The first canopy I bought was a Sabre 150 recommended to me by the S&TA of the dropzone - I had no business on something that small.

I put about 250 jumps on that and then went to a Stiletto 135 - again, I had no business going to that.

After about 350 jumps on the St 135 I downsized it to a St 120 - no business downsizing - see a trend?

It was on the St 120 that I started to become aware of how serious canopy flight really is and realized how stupid I had been with my previous canopy choices and how lucky I had gotten. I did a lot of hop and pops on the 120 and got a lot of canopy coaching.

I was planning on putting at least 700 - 1000 jumps on the St 120 and then checking out the Katana but I was recommended to switch over to the canopy by some very knowledgable canopy pilots whose opinion I definitely trust. So I demoed a Katana 120, loved it and bought it.

I've put about 100 jumps on the Katana 120 and have absolutely no desire to downsize any time soon. I'll probably put another 1000 jumps on it before I'm getting anywhere near maxing it out. Then there's the 107, the 97, etc.. all to jump before I'd go to a Velocity.

I can't see having "earned" the canopy experience to fly a Velocity for another 2000 jumps or so (putting me at a total of about 3000 jumps.) How can people with 200 jumps, or even 1000 jumps for that matter, have gotten the experience necessary to fly such a high performance canopy like that?

I'll stop ranting and rambling now...

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[Ron 7]

Quote

so you edify me dude..if you think I am going to fast
what do you think about the others

I would say they are going to fast as well. And if you read my posts you will see that I said ANYBODY...And Chuck said the same thing, and Bill...But I'm a dick? Funny.

Quote

I was trying to say that it takes alot to really max a canopy if you tell me it is more than I think then i will listen and take your advice and I will be here along time.

Not just me, but a lot of others think the same way...Like I said not many people need to be under the uber performance canopies...They just THINK they need to be under them. You are no different than the rest. Or me for that matter...I jump a ST107 could I jump a Velocity?...Yep, but I don't need to and I don't have the giant EGO that makes it so I feel I need to.

Quote

I think you might be a dic ron

I really could not care what you think. Your ego is hurt since I said you have not "MAXED OUT" your canopy like you think you have. That does not make me a dick...It makes you wrong, but it does not make me a dick.

Quote

I have seen your posts you regal yourself with knowledge

Well I do have a lot more knowledge than you do. Just like you have more knowledge than a guy in a first jump course. Same thing really..I bet you think a guy that just finished AFF1 saying he felt his stomach drop when "The canopy opened and then went up".. Or other such nonsense...Kinda like the nonsense you just said about "I have MAXED OUT my canopy".

Quote

I am a worm to you

No, you are less expereinced than me...That does not make you less of a person to me. But your EGO got hurt when I told you you didn't MAX out your canopy yet.

Think about this...If I didn't care about you, why would I even bother?

Quote

I know that you could do circles around me

Where did I say I could do that????? Maybe I could. I would be willing to bet you are a better freeflier than I am. I really suck at freeflying...

Quote

but sombody needs to tell you you are a dick regardless of knowledge

Again other than the personal attack on me....

Where in this did I piss in your corn flakes?

Quote

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1015437#1015437

Re: [orbitjunkie] Crossbrace + low jump numbers [In reply to] Edit | Delete | Quote | Reply

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I am not a slow learner either, at least average or better.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No offense , but almost everyone thinks they are better than average.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I have more than 200 jumps on my canopy and am just now really learning how to max it out and still land safely

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Again, no offense ...You only think you can max out that canopy...I have almost 2,000 on my canopy and am still learning on it.

I would REALLY like to know what it was I said that pissed you off enough to call me a Dick?

Cause I aint seeing it.

I mean I'd really like to know...I really tried to not piss in anyones corn flakes on this one...Call it a kinder Gentler me.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

Ron
so you edify me dude..if you think I am going to fast
what do you think about the others. I was trying to say that it takes alot to really max a canopy if you tell me it is more than I think then i will listen and take your advice and I will be here along time. I think you might be a dic ron I have seen your posts you regal yourself with knowledge, I am a worm to you, and I know that you could do circles around me, but sombody needs to tell you you are a dick regardless of knowledge

As I am not a mod in this forum I cannot delete your blatant personal attack, but just know that you are out of line here. Ron is very-opinionated, but isn't out there running his mouth and telling people it's OK to do dangerous/wreckless stuff. Your calling him a dick because of his opinion on this matter is uncalled for. Until you have met Ron in person, you will have to refrain from calling him a dick. I, on the other hand, am a personal friend of Ron's and can absolutely call him one if I choose.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

This has been a very good thread with tons of good information from the experienced people out there. I'm not sure how much I can help here (after all I still am very much a newbie to this sport). But if we can get more people (myself included) to slow down and think about what they are doing with their canopy choices, then maybe a few less incidents will occur this summer.

It looks like I am slightly bigger than NeedToJump (Ari), but I seemed to have followed a similar (fast) downsizing progression.

- Triathlon 220 (50+ jumps) downsized to a Sabre2 190 at the right time.

- Sabre2 190 (90+ jumps) downsized to a Sabre2 170 likely a little early, but not critical nor dangerous.

- Sabre2 170 (220+ jumps) downsized to a Crossfire2 139 without truly maxing out the Sabre2 170. I learned a lot from my Sabre2 and was able to swoop great distances with it. My only beef with it was the short recovery arc (and for that I don't regret my Crossfire2 downsizing choice). But I will openly admit that I didn't learn everything I could have learned on that Sabre2 and did downsize sooner than I should have (all except that recovery arc issue).

So now I am flying my Crossfire2 and I will admit that I have been tempted to buy one of my friend's Crossfire2 129 (and another friend has or had a 119 for sale as well). But I still have NOT mastered this canopy. To me maxing out a canopy and mastering a canopy are different beasts. I say this because there has been a number of swoops which I did well and believe I came close to maxing out the canopy's potential. But there have been other jumps where I have messed up (not dangerously ... knock on wood) and bleed off a lot of my speed due to numerous factors. So instead of thinking about all those good landings/swoops I may have had with this canopy, I still can't help but think about the times were I haven't efficiently piloted the canopy. So I can see myself on my current wing for many many moons to come. Like NeedToJump, I doubt you will see me on a x-braced canopy anytime soon as I still have four Crossfire2 canopy sizes to master before I ever think about flying a x-braced canopy. Oh and for what it's worth, my 2nd rig (it'll be my wingsuit rig) has a Spectre 150 in it (a canopy I'd love to get my PRO rating with). So not every jump I make is a jump where I am looking to swoop.

We should be swooping for our own reasons and not swooping to try and impress other people. Unless your name is Clint Clawson (or one of the other PST guys/gals), there's always going to be someone at the DZs better than you.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Ron 7]

Quote

Your calling him a dick because of his opinion on this matter is uncalled for

I'd really like to know where in that post I pissd him off...Hell I got a PM about the post he replied to telling me to stop being a wuss.

Quote

I, on the other hand, am a personal friend of Ron's and can absolutely call him one if I choose.

What up monkey?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pajarito 0]

So...you want to be an action guy?...Do ya?.......Eeeeeverybody want to be an action guy...

[Praetorian 1]

I like that people are Talking about their own downsizeing even if it was a little fast (or really fast) but your only giving wing size .. what about loading?

I'm having fun with my own stupidity, one instructor of mine (I'm now convinced was pulling my leg) commented on how he thought I'd be flying a Sam or Stiletto 150 right off student status.. big boost to my ego, considering the only landings he had seen were under a sabre2 190. So for a few months (ending in january) I was under the dillusion I'd get a Sam 150 for my 1st main following my A ... then I pulled my head outta my ass after reading posts on here (at 150 I'd be loaded about 1.2:1) as I currently jump a 190 Sabre2 as a student but probably get to finnish my last 6 or 7 jumps on a 170 I'm planning on a 170 lotusMAX (already ordered)
so my progression would be:

oh I weigh just at 160 dressed but without gear
288sf Manta first 9 jumps
Sabre2 210 3 jumps
Sabre2 190 3 jumps probably 4 or 5 more
Sabre2 170 10 jumps or so
LotusMax 170 A lisence through the next few hundred jumps or more

I know I didn't "max out" not by a long shot ..even the Manta 288 I didn't max the 210 or 190 but I'm but buying my gear I decided on the 170 Lotus which will be about 1:1 and my instructors and some friends agreed (more then one implied I would be looking to downsize by the end of the summer I dont think so. but now that I've put mine up to comment on I'm curious in this day and age would any of you really jump a manta 288 until you had MAXed it before going down in size?

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

I like that people are Talking about their own downsizeing even if it was a little fast (or really fast) but your only giving wing size .. what about loading?

I didn't put the wing loading on my last post for a couple of reasons. First off, all you need to do is look at my profile and you'll see that I'm currently loading my Crossfire2 at about 1.5:1 which falls within Icarus's recommended wing loading for this canopy (but is still under loaded compared to what many people think is the optimal wing loading for the Crossfire2). It is tempting to get to that optimal wing loading, but I must also remind myself that I have NOT mastered this current canopy (I have stood up all but two of what 210 or so landings on this canopy, but I think about my two crashes more than I think about all those successful stand ups). Secondly, I didn't post wing loadings because I have lost about 10-15 pounds since last summer and my wing loading on my Crossfire2 isn't all that much higher than the wing loading on the Sabre2 170. Plus how my wing reacts will be different than how someone else's with the same wing loading will react because I jump in a high density altitude region of the world (my home DZ is 5000 feet MSL and on a hot summer day, then density altitude could be approaching 9k-10k MSL).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[bodypilot1 0]

"an Excallibur"
Damn, I thought I'd never hear that again...

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Ron 7]

Quote

I know I didn't "max out" not by a long shot ..even the Manta 288 I didn't max the 210 or 190 but I'm but buying my gear I decided on the 170 Lotus which will be about 1:1

Which is probably a good WL.. And you will be under a square which is good also.

Quote

more then one implied I would be looking to downsize by the end of the summer

Thats the dangerous thing...

Quote

I'm curious in this day and age would any of you really jump a manta 288 until you had MAXed it before going down in size?

Nope, but student canopies are there to keep you alive...A 1.1 wingload is not THAT bad for a guy with 20-30 jumps...I however did around 300 on a 0.7 WL back in the day.

And when I got my cool and groovy Stiletto...I hooked that fucker in on jump #3.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[StearmanR985 0]

Quote

(I'm just very interested in canopy control and wish there were more courses around)

Me too. In fact, I just wish there were canopy control courses around this area period.

[dgskydive 0]

Quote

Some people just can't stand hearing "You can't/shouldn't be doing that." Yet some of these very same people are ALL ears when someone tells them HOW to do it and how to do it CORRECTLY.

They don't want the truth if they don't want to hear that. I commend Ian for helping the guy, but agree with him that the guy is a D.G.I.T. How can they be all ears when you can't tell them the real truth. They shouldn't be doing it in the first place. It is a case of people having their cake and eating it. Show him the right way by pulling his cutaway handle, get him a bigger canopy and take the time to do it RIGHT. This guy knows he is wrong or he would have been at his home DZ jumping that canopy.

It just amazes me that everyone things they are bullet proof. I guess it shouldn't because I used to be the same way. Maybe new jumpers should sit through a video kinda of like "Blood on the Asphalt" from Drivers Ed. We could call it "Dumbass New Jumpers that think they are different the the Rest". Or if they want that new X-Brace at 200 jumps, They must have stood over 5 people that got all broke up by doing the same thing. New jumper sees and hears all the pain they will rethink their actions.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

Quote

Me too. In fact, I just wish there were canopy control courses around this area period.

Take a road trip. Come to the DZ.com Boggie in May and see Team Extreme. They will be happy to take you up and see how you are doing.

Also, take charge! If you can get a big enough group of folks together they may travel to you!

Dom

[twnsnd 1]

Quote

I seemed to have followed a similar (fast) downsizing progression.

I just wanted to add a personal opinion to this whole thing on posting progression. My progression up to this point has been fast, very fast. But you will never ever see me post it anywhere. One reason is that I already know what everyone's reaction would be so what is there to learn from it. However, my main gripe with this practice is that regardless of how much you say "I don't recomend this", or " I had no business". New jumpers are still going to see it as "It worked for them, it will work for me too" I think that it sets a bad example no matter how hard we try to label it a mistake.

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[stateofnature 0]

Something about a "Para-Performance Ambulance Tour"

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

In my time jumping an accuracy canopy (That was a big, boatlike, 7 cell) I maybe put 500-600 jumps on it in 3 years...And I still didn't "Max it out".

Hey, hey. I resemble that. No personal attacks.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals