Things we take for granted...

[flyingarab 0]

This weekend a friend of mine boarded the plane and intentionally left his chest strap undone in an attempt to see how many people would notice. He even went a step further to get attention by giving each of us the famous skydiving bird (middle finger skydiver style) and although we all had a great laugh, none of us, including myself, ever noticed that his strap was not on.

When we landed, he made an announcement at manifest regarding what he had done and brought special attention to the fact that no one noticed.

As the season picks up, being aware of your gear and the gear of those beside you on the plane will become more important. This has taught me a very valuable lesson in regards to making this sport a more safe one. I believe that pin checks and gear checks on the plane should be done by ever jumper and would also like to see everyone check the person's gear sitting beside them.

We have 14K feet to get this done. It only takes 1K feet to do it and it could save your life or the life of someone else. This is just a thought that I had and wanted to present it to the rest of the SD community as we grow closer to a busy season.

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[towerrat 0]

ya know, I kinda got a problem with this. I agree to a point that we should all look out for each other.But for me, priority number one is to look out for myself. I'll take a look if I'm going with newer jumpers, but for the most part I'm concerned with my own gear. I know I'll get flamed for this, but I really don't concern myself with other peoples gear. I'll do pin checks if asked, and if your chest strap is in my face I'll look at it. Other than that, you're on your own. I check my chest strap , leg straps, three rings and pin twice before I exit. If you aren't checking your equipment, that's your problem. Let's take a little responsibility for our own actions ( or lack thereof).

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[askir 0]

yes indeed:
I have caught 3 of those in the the last 10 years, one already floating on the door.
The term "pin check" is misleading and I beleive it comes from the old military static line days.
Gear check is done pre-boarding and then pins are checked prior to exit or something like that.
Gear Check, Gear Check, leg straps, chest straps, 3 ring release, handles securely in place, loose BOC pockets, pin seating, cypress on (if possible) altimeter set correctly, and please add others if i missed something, all a great Idea.
Some of you may remember Tom Piras and how he died, his cypress was not turned on and a student whom he was coaching had a very loose BOC pouch, premature deployment just below Tom, knee in the face and Tom goes in (I have seen the video)
This was an individual with over 10,000 skydives and a world champion... no one is invulnerable.
One of the things that attracts most of us to skydiving is the comradery...not the selfish few, besides a guy with gear that is not in safe condition not only poses a danger to himself but to the rest of us in the plane. 3 years ago my best friend was killed along with 2 others because someone in the plane had a frayed reserve loop (discovered after examination of the rig by six riggers) when this individual went on the step, the reserve came out, destroyed the tail of the plane, the craft spun so badly that the pilot (my buddy) and the two left in the plane were stuck to the ceiling or walls until the ensuing impact and explosion.
So next time you think you are doing someone a favor think twice; you may be saving your own hide.

LIFE IS LIKE A CIGARETTE, YOU CAN SIT THERE AND WATCH IT BURN AWAY OR YOU CAN SMOKE THAT BITCH TO THE FILTER

[damion75 0]

At my DZ (Netheravon) and also I think it is a BPA regulation, everyone has a flightline gear check from someone else B licence or better (it is part of the IC1 test to be able to complete this check on someone). This is then signed off on the manifest - or you dont get on the plane.

I know people hate extra regulation but I am sure that this saves lives - even if it is only one life every ten years. Particularly from those little things, like misrouted chest straps and uncocked P/Cs.

There seems to be little to lose and everything to gain.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[crzjp20 0]

i have to agree with you here, i am a mear student in this sport and i have caught chest straps already. one this weekend. But at the same time i have been caught once with mine routed the wrong way. Some one saved my life, why, cause someone was concious enough to notice the small details we ofetn overlook.

I alwas ask for a pin check and double and tripple check my rings and straps. And most of the time i am give the people i am jumping with a pin check as well.

Blue skys

--------------------------------------------------
Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[askir 0]

GEAR CHECK...GEAR CHECK...GEAR CHECK

LIFE IS LIKE A CIGARETTE, YOU CAN SIT THERE AND WATCH IT BURN AWAY OR YOU CAN SMOKE THAT BITCH TO THE FILTER

[Zenister 0]

you could just train everyone to check and double check their own gear in the first place...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[askir 0]

and the military could just train you to shoot only the guy shooting at you not the one shooting your buddy.

LIFE IS LIKE A CIGARETTE, YOU CAN SIT THERE AND WATCH IT BURN AWAY OR YOU CAN SMOKE THAT BITCH TO THE FILTER

[flyingarab 0]

you know what the differnce between a real skydiver and a guy that jumps out of a plane? The difference is that a real skydiver considers his fellow jumpers to be family and his DZ to be his home away from home. This means that a real skydiver would treat the facility with the most respect and would do what was necessary to make sure his "family" was safe.

A jumper, well he or she would just get on the load, jump, land, and go home at the end of the day.

I love being a skydiver and am thankful I am not just a jumper.

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[Zenister 0]

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and the military could just train you to shoot only the guy shooting at you not the one shooting your buddy.

not the point...what they dont train you to do is check your buddy everytime he fires to make sure he's aiming at the right target....

if you develop and continually practice your own checks and procedures everytime you get on the plane and repeat them on the ride to altitude then we dont have to rely on 'mothering' regulations to make sure your safe.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Ron 7]

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you know what the differnce between a real skydiver and a guy that jumps out of a plane? The difference is that a real skydiver considers his fellow jumpers to be family and his DZ to be his home away from home. This means that a real skydiver would treat the facility with the most respect and would do what was necessary to make sure his "family" was safe.

YOU are responsable to make sure YOUR gear is on.

That's a good point; the rest of your post is a thinly disguised personal attack on the poster. Cut it out.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[flyingarab 0]

Hey Ron...Wooosaaaa Wooosaaaa

PA deleted

I wish you luck bro as your health, heart, and mind will need it with an attitude like that.

For the rest, I am not saying it is time to babysit, but the point was, assisting your fellow skydiver is a good thing. I will do it to someone now no matter how many jumps he or she has. It is just a simply thing that could one day save a life.

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[davelepka 4]

***But for me, priority number one is to look out for myself.
===============================

Your attitude sucks. It also demonstrates your lack of experience and foresight.

Other's gear issues can quickly become your issues. Deployments in the plane or on the step. Thats trouble for everyone. Anyone on your skydive with a gear issue can quickly become a very personal problem for you. The checks needed to avoid the above situations (eyeballing pilot chutes and ripcord handles, looking for exposed bridle or open pin cover flaps) are so close to a complete visual gear check, why not take a look at the rest of the rig?

Addtionally, is it that much trouble to give a visual once-over to every rig in the plane to possibly avoid an injury to a fellow jumper?

If you're not concered about anyone but yourself, consider that an accident usually brings the DZ to halt with ambulances and helicopters showing up. That'll ruin your day at the DZ anytime.

[justdumi 0]

Gees steady there Ron. You dont have to be that hard on him! Man and you are an instructor as well.

All he said is take time to cast your eye around or check gear. We know it aint your job unless you have a student under you but on the same level it doesnt take long...shit happens for whatever reason. It dont hurt...but to be fair your attitude to this discussion sucks.

Its our own responsibility for our gear...but...no one is invinsible. Better safe than sorry....or probably in Rons case..better sorry than have him do something he aint paid for.

[Ron 7]

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Wow, it is true, stupidty in up jumpers does exist. Good to see that you excercised your apparently limited vocabulary in hopes of impressing me.

Well I am glad in all your "experience" that you can tell who is a "skydiver" and who is just a "jumper".

That is my issue. You claim that unless a guy checks out everyones gear he is not really a "skydiver"

And that is a bull shit argument.

Quote

However, with 2,500 jumps less than you there is one thing I can say, your attitude is pathetic and your insight, although comical in an uneducated sort of way, does nothing but prove that some up jumpers have forgotten what it means to enjoy the sport and lend a hand.

No my coments are to ask you who the hell you think you are to say who is what?

And to inform you that your "opinon" of who is what is Bull Shit.

You may think I am pathetic, but your childish attempt to use emotion in a discussion to try and prove a point is pretty pathetic.

You claim to know who is what....Thats ego.

As for what I do...I bet I have worked with more low timers than you, and that includes low times with more jumps than you.

But your BS attitude about who is what was my beef.

You want to start ramp checks...? Go ahead. I think its a great idea.

But for you to say:

Quote

you know what the differnce between a real skydiver and a guy that jumps out of a plane? The difference is that a real skydiver considers his fellow jumpers to be family and his DZ to be his home away from home. This means that a real skydiver would treat the facility with the most respect and would do what was necessary to make sure his "family" was safe.

Is Bull Shit. And thats my beef.

Like I said I like the idea of ramp checks...And I have stoped many jumpers from getting on without having their gear on.

But who are YOU to say who is what?

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I wish you luck bro as your health, heart, and mind will need it with an attitude like that.

My health, heart and mind have done just fine for 11 years and 6 times the jumps you have.

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assisting your fellow skydiver is a good thing

And that I agree.

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I will do it to someone now no matter how many jumps he or she has. It is just a simply thing that could one day save a life.

And that I agree and also do..

Like I said my beef was with you pulling in the old "Your not a skydiver, you are just a jumper" BS.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Gees steady there Ron. You dont have to be that hard on him!

He didn't need to jump at this guy either.

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1029297#1029297
you know what the differnce between a real skydiver and a guy that jumps out of a plane? The difference is that a real skydiver considers his fellow jumpers to be family and his DZ to be his home away from home. This means that a real skydiver would treat the facility with the most respect and would do what was necessary to make sure his "family" was safe.

A jumper, well he or she would just get on the load, jump, land, and go home at the end of the day.

He is trying to tell a guy what he is...Based off of HIS OWN OPINION. Both the two in question have 500ish jumps...what makes one allowed to tell the other what he is?

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Man and you are an instructor as well.

Yep, and I'm instructing....You don't see me telling BillVon he is "Just a Jumper" and not as cool as me....What makes this guy have that right?

And he has a very good point...I agreed with it, and even told him to try and do something about it...But I don't think he should be running around trying to label others.

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All he said is take time to cast your eye around or check gear. We know it aint your job unless you have a student under you but on the same level it doesnt take long...shit happens for whatever reason. It dont hurt

And I agreed with it. And I do it all the time.

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but to be fair your attitude to this discussion sucks.

My attitude about his piss poor attitude sucks...The difference was you didn't seem to mind his, I did.

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Its our own responsibility for our gear...but...no one is invinsible

Yep, and I have both been caught wrong and fixed others...Like I said my issue was with him telling Towerrat that he was not a "Skydiver"...

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Rons case..better sorry than have him do something he aint paid for.

Ever hear the saying..."It's you and me till it's you OR me".

I'm ALL about saftey. But Im also ALL about not letting some guy with the same number of jumps slam a guy cause he does not agree with him.

Like I said before...Do ramp checks. I think its a great idea...But don'g go around saying "He is not a REAL skydiver since he does not agree with me" Thats Bull Shit

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[flyingarab 0]

Hey Ron,

I was simply stating that people should take extra time. . . .

Safety is a key issue in this sport. . . .

There is a ton of emotion in the sport. I love the sport more than anything else in my life and so do many of the jumpers that I know. It is not possible to love something and remove emotion from it at the same time. When someone dies or gets hurt in the sport, it is that same emotion that allows people to heal and move on. Perhaps with your "skills" you have replaced emotion with nonsense, but that is for you to deal with on your own.

I believe that fellow skydivers, given the time and opportunity, should take a moment to just make sure that the person beside them is ok. If that is going beyond the call to you, then perhaps you need to go back and figure out what this sport is all about.

More stuff deleted

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[billvon 2,475]

>There is a ton of emotion in the sport.

Definitely true; a lot of it seems to be appearing in this thread.

This thread is a good one for the safety and training forum, which is why I pruned it instead of deleting it altogether. However, the S+T forum is a bad place to discuss how bad (or good) people's attitudes are. If you disagree with how someone approaches an issue, it's fine to state that, but a dozen posts saying "your attitude sucks" "no, yours does" "that's bullshit" is counterproductive.

[Ron 7]

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I was simply stating that people should take extra time. . . .

And I agree with you...And I even suggested steps you could do to take it even further. I think ramp checks would not be a bad idea. I check EVERYONE in the plane. And many times have stopped people at the stairs to the plane and told them to put their leg straps on before getting on the plane. (That is a pet peave of mine).

I ask them if they have heard the sayng "Its you and me till its you OR me". I then ask them if they get on the plane without their leg straps on and the engine blows and the pilot tells us to get out NOW. If they think I am going to wait for them to finaly put their gear on before I head to the door.

I have had one guy tell me to leave him alone and ask me if I was his Mother. I told him I'm not his Mom, but she called and told him to stop being stupid.

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Safety is a key issue in this sport. . . .

Yep find any post or anyone that knows me that does not show that.

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There is a ton of emotion in the sport.

Yep, but to see the issue you have to not look at it through emotional eyes.

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I love the sport more than anything else in my life and so do many of the jumpers that I know

OK I have to admit it is not as all comsuming to me as it was, and now is with you..And yes, that does make it much easier to not get emotional.

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When someone dies or gets hurt in the sport, it is that same emotion that allows people to heal and move on.

I disect the accident to try and learn from it and then do everything I can to keep myself or anyone else from making that mistake....For this I get called an asshole. (Not so much from you...but its a pretty common thing).

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I believe that fellow skydivers, given the time and opportunity, should take a moment to just make sure that the person beside them is ok.

Agreed. I actually think that we should MAKE the time...Hench my suggesting ramp checks.

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If that is going beyond the call to you, then perhaps you need to go back and figure out what this sport is all about.

Its not beyond the call....In fact if you look around here you see that I am most times yelling for people to be safe. I am one of the largest voices calling for a Wing Load BSR.

My only issue was with the emotional argument. Its really pretty cut and dry...

You think (as most do) that we should look out for each other. Towerrat thinks the same way...In fact he said many things that you didn't read.

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ya know, I kinda got a problem with this. I agree to a point that we should all look out for each other.See he AgreedBut for me, priority number one is to look out for myself. As I think it should be...Look after yourself first, then look out for others I'll take a look if I'm going with newer jumpers, but for the most part I'm concerned with my own gear. As we all should be I know I'll get flamed for this, but I really don't concern myself with other peoples gear. I'll do pin checks if asked, and if your chest strap is in my face I'll look at it. Other than that, you're on your own. I check my chest strap , leg straps, three rings and pin twice before I exit. If you aren't checking your equipment, that's your problem. Let's take a little responsibility for our own actions ( or lack thereof).

BOLD my thoughts

Yes he gets a little brash with:

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If you aren't checking your equipment, that's your problem

But it really kinda is just your problem...It's you butt on the line if you don't put your gear on and check it. I have mine on and I did check it...Therfore I will live. And for the record I have climbed out with my chest strap undone...Jump #28 I think. (Man I was I stupid.) But it was MY fault for not having it on...And for the record it was on, but not threading correctly.

Look, I AGREE with your thoughts...I didn't agree with the whole skydiver vs jumper stuff...If you look its the only thing I didn't agree with. And I gave my reasons why I didn't like it.

So, now what do we do?

Ramp checks? Probably not going to happen. Although it is done in England, and we did it in the military. It could easliy be done while waiting for the plane to taxi up. I like the idea, and I check every persons gear on my team when I am training, or everyones gear in my group when I am organizing...Most people don't know I'm checking it.

I stand by the stairs and make sure that if you have to get out right then that you would survive.

I don't check everything, but I do a legstrap (From the days of B12's) and chest strap check.

On students/lowtimers I check altimeters. If you have 500 jumpsI figure that since you don't NEED an altimeter, and have lived through 500 jumps I don't have to go out of my way to check it....If its easy to see, I check it, but some people I know have them in helmets till the get ready at 10 grand.

So what would you like? Jumpmaster checks for everyone? Observed self checks? Ramp checks where everyone checks the guy in front of him?

Like I said I liked your thoughts...Just not the labeling of towerrat.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[justdumi 0]

Ron i hear you buddy.

Ok so...with the hope of getting a helpful conclusion out of this thread...what do we do?

I think what we have touched on here is the fact that safety should be our number one concern..but just like in any other problem in life..there is the question of practicability.

On the one hand Flyingarabs's mate intentionally undid his chest strap and no one picked it up and Flyingarab and his mate find this a sore spot calling for more attention from the genral community.

On the other hand..some say that its basically not practical to take ownership of every other person in the load...and thats being honest!

The question to pose to you all therefore...is what is practical and what isnt? Where does it reasonably end because in the light of preventing safety..we could spend less time skydiving and more time preparing or avoiding potential incidents.

Could we go as far as repacking our reserves after each jump? Having the aircraft checked by a tech after each shutdown? Compulsory safety exam refreshers each week at the dz? Every jumper checking every other jumpers gear in the plane?

Bottom line is it dont look too practical to do all of this...and this fact that we cant eliminate all possible chances of problems puts pressure on individuals to get their own acts together (eg not take things lightly like entering the plane with straps not tied).

You talk of family? You wouldnt want to endanger your family needlessly would you? Take reasonable care yourself...but then again...where does reasonable end?

[flyingarab 0]

Well, with all the different opinions, I think one thing is clear. We all want a safe sport...so let's make it that way.

Take care guys..

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[happythoughts 0]

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Ok so...with the hope of getting a helpful conclusion out of this thread...what do we do?

Where does it reasonably ... Every jumper checking every other jumpers gear in the plane?

Yes. Every jumper checks every jumpers that they can see. Last weekend on the plane, the LO asked everyone to check everyone else.

Here was the list:
Cutaway pillow is available and not tucked under webbing.
Reserve handle/pillow - same checks as above.
Chest strap is routed properly.
PC and bridle are seated properly.

These are easy visual checks that I do on every jump for everyone in sight.

[lawrocket 3]

I'm a mere student. Maybe that's why I shudder thinking about folks without chest straps or leg straps, as billvon wrote about.

I see your list and I wonder about the "Check of Threes" and how often it is missed. Three handles properly seated and presented; three rings on either side, properly routed, and thee points of connection (chest strap and leg straps properly routed).

Is this something that people just get lazy about as jump numbers go up?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Ron 7]

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Ok so...with the hope of getting a helpful conclusion out of this thread...what do we do?

Do what we can do. bring it up..And look at each others gear when we can...Make time for it if we have to.

Don't let people get on the plane if they are not ready to leave...

The most important thing we can do is focus on OUR rig and make sure WE are safe.

The thing is this issue is low on my radar...I know its there, and I know it kills.

But right now my #1 priority is canopy flight....More people get killed under a good canopy than by falling out of a rig.

And this issue has a simple fix:

1. Put your gear on in a mental checklist...don't change that process. I put my right leg in the legstrap and then throw the rig on myright shoulder. I then put my left leg in, and throw it on my left shoulder. I then do the chest strap, and then the leg straps...I have been doing it this way for 11 years...ever since I misrouted a chest strap like a dumbass.

2. Check your own gear before you step on the plane...Do it EVERY time you walk to the stairs. (This is also a good time to do a handles check and a practice malfunction. Becasue of this I have over 3,500 practice mals...I do them on EVERY jump.

3. Visually check your buddies while you are getting up and getting ready. Check everyone within your line of site. Just last weekend I had a guy in the front of the otter tell me my reserve handle was coming out some. Which leads to #4.

4. Check your own gear again before the line up or exit.

5. Remember that this sport kills, and YOU are responsible for YOUR saftey first. Don't trust Bob to check your gear...YOU check your gear..Then check Bob's and have him check yours...

6. Gear checks are cool. Airspeed, the GK's and Majik do them...

I remember this one time I was lucky enough o be jumping with some Airspeed and GK guys doing an 8way comp. I was the guy with the lowest number of jumps. There was this guy that just did his 1,200 jump. He was walking to the plane and I pulled him aside...

I said "Why are you walking to the plane not geared up?" He said "I don't know". I asked him to look at my group...Neal Houston, Derrick Thomas, Joe Trinko...More great skydivers with 10,000 + jumps than you could ever care to jump with...I asked him to notice if any of them didn't have their rigs on. They all had their rigs on ready to go...All of them looked cool geared up. All of them were cool, none of them were to cool to walk out with their shit hanging off of them to look cool...They were cool.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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I see your list and I wonder about the "Check of Threes" and how often it is missed. Three handles properly seated and presented; three rings on either side, properly routed, and thee points of connection (chest strap and leg straps properly routed).

Is this something that people just get lazy about as jump numbers go up?

Yep, some people...Around 800-1000 jumps get so comfertable that they start trying to look cool. And lets face it a rig is not that comfertable as opposed to it just hanging there like a backpack.

I think its stupid...But I'm not going to say I didn't do it. I did it, I was stupid. All the cool guys did it.

Don't try to look cool, try to be safe.

Losing cool points is survivable.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334