Should instructors swoop?

[Darminion 0]

There has been a problem lately of the AFP instructor always swooping on a jump with a student which places him very far off from the student landing area. Myself as well as other students have had complaints that his perception of where we are as well as his perception of obstacles is caused from him being so far away from us when we land. I had a different instructor for my level 4 jump and he did land in the student landing area which I found a huge difference in the things I was hearing over the radio.

Now before I get hammered for relying on the radio for landing, yes I know that each person is responsible for flying their own canopy, but this is a concern more along the lines of the one who are on their low level jumps who do need that assistance.

Please see the attached arial pic to get a better perspective of what I'm talking about.

Any comments are welcome.

Anvile Brother #59

[hookitt 0]

I won't hammer you on the radio comment. If you have one on then it's nut unusual to actually follow instructions.

I swoop pretty much anywhere so I'll take it that you mean should the instructor land in the student landing area.

Some one should be there to offer radio support. If it's the duty of the instructor then yes. The instructor should land close enough to offer sound canopy control suggestions. (how was that for PC )

At the DZ I frequent, the student landing zone is just farther out in the field so it's no issue. At another DZ I've instructed at, one of the instructors is required to land in the student landing area.

It's bad form to regularly perform radio instruction from a distance.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[CornishChris 5]

It depends who is responsible for bringing the student in (IMHO). In Sydney there is a deicated TA for the students who talks them down from the centre of the student landing area so it does not matter if the "air instructor" swoops. If there is not someone else dedicated then i would assume that for the instructor his jump is not finished until his student is safekly down and he/she should be in the best place to watch that.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[Darminion 0]

Yes, I meant should the instructor land in the student area. and yes the instructor begins talking us down as soon as he lands. If you look in the picture, he usually lands right around the far left side of the red box, and students are told to land in the square at the end of the runway.

Anvile Brother #59

[Praetorian 1]

a lazy ass instructor (he later got chewed good by the DZO) gave my firend landing dirrections from 250+ yards away, I'll never forget hearing him say "flare" after I watched her hit the little hill he had directed her into, on her previous jump (which she stood up) he bitched at her for flaring too early and not listening to radio but at least on that jump he was withing 100 yards when he talked her down

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[Darminion 0]

this is very similar to what I was talking about. I would say it's about 150 yards from the swoop course to the student landing area. And he nearly put me into a fence on one jump which I used my better judgement and flar turned it just enough to avoid it. and his perception of our altitude is way off as well. There were at least two times that he told me to start my landing pattern and I was still around 1500 feet. Another girl said he told her the same thing and she was still at 2000 feet.

Anvile Brother #59

[Praetorian 1]

whats important (other then the instructor getting into position to give useful instruction) is did you or she ask WHY he advised starting your landing pattern high? if there was a reason good if not he should know that what he thinks is 1k is reading 2k to the jumper (and altimeter) I still jump with a radio but in my last 5 jumps it hasn't made a peep, I asked my instructor only to give me instruction if I apear to be doing something wrong to yell flare only if I'm gonna hit. so far no need and each landing was still closely watched and commented on (usually to my direct benifit)

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[Fast 0]

At our DZ the typical practice is to dedicate a person who is not on the load to do the radio. If there is no one available then one of the instructors will do it, but in that case most of the time they land out where students (and most other people) land.


I think there is importance in having a student's instructor land near where the student does or at least get over there before the student lands. I may not have much time in the sport, but I do know that regardless of how much experience a person has as an instructor you can't know what a person is doing wrong if you can't see them doing it wrong, at that point all you can do is assume (lots of experience can lead the right assumptions, but is this really how we ought to learn). I don't say this to put down on instructors, in fact I hold a lot of respect for them and this is a thing that most of the instructors that I know do. In my mind I just keep comming back to all the concern that is being raised about canopy flight.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Shark 0]

I guess this begs the question: As a student, do you rely on radio instructions from your instructor?

[Praetorian 1]

on your first jump, do you have a choice?

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[Shark 0]

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on your first jump, do you have a choice?

Then I would recommend a training tandem. Those who have attended my FJC find out they even have a radio at the end of class. If you cannot safely land your parachute you should either spend more time with your instructor on the canopy control/landing patterns or make a training tandem. The reality is that we will give you in air instruction during that first jump, but that is subject to the student being able to hear clearly as well as not having communications equipment issues.

[Praetorian 1]

I see your point, but when I first started I was told that I HAD to do as I was told over the radio, even to the extent that there was a procedure for signaling an out radio if you didn't get some instruction by 1500ft .. at which point you were to signal no contact wait for instruction in case they just forgot to contact you, and then "your on your own" if you don't get instruciton by 1200ft the FJC coverd canapy flight, landing pattern etc and "on your own landings" should have been fine .. but if the radio worked you "had" to do what you were told

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[DancingFlame 0]

Radio-controlled skydiver
You should not rely on your radio.
I've jumped with radio just ONCE. Then, my instructor asked 'Do you need this?', I asked him back, 'Whatfor is that thing?' (Yes, I was complete whuffo that days). Then he looked at me and said, 'Well, then, just fly your canopy!'
And I flew it. 14 student clear stand-up landings, all in 3 meter radius circle! Instructors were impressed by my canopy control skills (yea, I know, my RW skills still disappointing ).
So, you shoud rely on yourself. Until you think there is an instructor that will help you to land you canopy, you won't get amazing landing (nothing personal!!!)
And let you instructor to land where he supposed to.

[tearseyes 0]

ok well i currently have the same instructor that darminion did and i have to say that canopy skills was the least of his worries when it came to ground school and instruction. I am not trying to rag on my instructor b/c if it weren't for him i wouldn't be jumping at all. I am just saying that even after 3 tandem jumps the radio on level one comes in handy. I was fine until the wind changed while i was under canopy on level 1 and the landing pattern that i was told to do was no longer the landing pattern for those wind conditions and i ended up landing really hard into the runway. I think that if my instructor would have been in the student landing area i wouldn't have even been near the runway.

[hookitt 0]

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I guess this begs the question: As a student, do you rely on radio instructions from your instructor?

That's not really a fair question. If the student can hear the radio, chances are they will listen to the instructions whether they are correct or not.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[crzjp20 0]

Jeremy your still using a radio? Not going to give advice here, caseu we have the same number of jumps, but at gold coast we have mike brown, or gear guy, talk us down... when i was on radio that is. But there was a fewtimes wehre the instrustor i jumped with talked me down and they laned right next to me. There was also one time we had a really really bad spot and he guided me in while we were in the air. so anywasy....

--------------------------------------------------
Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[USPA 0]

My experiences show that most of the times, when the instructions are correct they don't and visa versa...

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[jumpy 0]

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I guess this begs the question: As a student, do you rely on radio instructions from your instructor?

Yes.. Yes you do. Expecting that a student can know how to join a landing pattern and judge their flare point on there first jump is a ridiculous expectation. Even if they have completed several tandems those are distinctly different canopies, loaded very differently, of which they do not have direct control over. It could even be dangerous if the student flare's to high, stalling the canopy and droping straight down.......

[tb62871 0]

I beleive the lesson is not over until your student has landed. Fly the pattern you teach. Expect a student to do what you do. The radio is a back up just like some of our other safety gear. Don't rely on it.

--TB
Welcome my friends to the show that never ends.

[riggerrob 561]

Conscienteous instructors land in or near the student landing area and observe their students landing. That is the only way they can give realistic feedback on landing technique.
Most schools hang radios on junior jumpers until they demonstrate competency flying a landing pattern.
This "radio vs. no radio" argument is silly and dangerous.
Whether the freefall instructor or another staff member issues radio instructions is a minor point, subject to local DZ policy.
I am so old that I dropped hundreds of students before ground to air radio became fashionable. Back then few students emerged from the class room understanding how to fly a reasonable landing pattern by themselves. Many students never understand the landing pattern until they have seen it two or three times while hanging under canopy.

The bottom line is: conscienteous instructors land near the student landing area and stay there - stowing brakes, etc. - until their students land. That is the only way they can accurately debrief landings.

[pajarito 0]

You said it well. I agree. You can't take a real hands-on proactive approach in teaching your student unless you are as close to them as possible throughout the entire jump (including landing). Hanging a radio around their neck and trying to teach from a distance in order that their "student jump" not interfere with your fun activity won't cut it. If you are instructing, the student should be your primary concern throughout.

[Shark 0]

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I guess this begs the question: As a student, do you rely on radio instructions from your instructor?

That's not really a fair question. If the student can hear the radio, chances are they will listen to the instructions whether they are correct or not.

Agreed, it is a somewhat vague question, but in my reply I mentioned that the reality is that we do "radio" control the students, but often times they cannot hear, nor do they clear their ears (valsalva) or feel that they are flying fine and do not heed our instructions.

[Shark 0]

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I guess this begs the question: As a student, do you rely on radio instructions from your instructor?

Yes.. Yes you do. Expecting that a student can know how to join a landing pattern and judge their flare point on there first jump is a ridiculous expectation. Even if they have completed several tandems those are distinctly different canopies, loaded very differently, of which they do not have direct control over. It could even be dangerous if the student flare's to high, stalling the canopy and droping straight down.......

If you feel that it is ridiculous to recognize the landing are, fly a landing pattern, and make a reasonable attempt to flare especially after several tandems, skydiving/parachuting may not be for you.

Again, the question is somewhat vague, but if your radio is in-op, what do you do as a student? You have to rely on the training you did in the FJC; recognize the landing area, read the wind, fly your pattern, and flare. You have a point, but if your depth perception is so bad that you cannot tell 100' from 10' I would not recommend another skydive on your own. At 65 jumps, do you know your landing priorities?

In my FJC, I write and leave at the top of the board: "Your #1 objective is to land safely under an open parachute." (Thanks to Billvon for that quote.) At the end of class I ask the students if they are able to accomplish that. If they cannot I spend additional time with them and if I believe they can't I recommend a training tandem.

Many of my former and current AFF students post on here and they can attest to my instructions. I also get the impression that you feel me and many instructors leave without even witnessing the canopy control, landing pattern and flare. That's far from the truth.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Again, the question is somewhat vague, but if your radio is in-op, what do you do as a student? You have to rely on the training you did in the FJC; recognize the landing area, read the wind, fly your pattern, and flare. You have a point, but if your depth perception is so bad that you cannot tell 100' from 10' I would not recommend another skydive on your own. At 65 jumps, do you know your landing priorities?

No doubt - if necessary, the student has to do it on their own. Radios can fail, or be muffled, and the student shouldn't spend their time troubleshooting it when the priority is clean flight and landing. They should be able to make their way about and land somewhere open. It just may not be ideal. How do they know the difference between flying the same pattern as everyone else versus getting too close to traffic?

On my first flight, I was a bit surprised at the instructions I got - I felt very high on approach. But when the last turn into the wind came, I descended like an escalator, and it felt at the time like an elevator. Had I picked the pattern, I would have gone too far out before the return leg. On final, I decided the radio was a bad distracton - not clear enough - so I ignored it and focused on the flare. Ended up doing it a few feet high, touched air, did an uneventful PLF and happily hit the ground. Mind you, the flight characteristics of this PD300 was nothing like the two tandems I have done in the past. Much more forward speed on them.

The problem these people describe is that in the best of circumstances, the guy on radio is quite far away. How helpful can he be, and how well can he evaluate the landing for the debrief? It's not about 10ft versus 100, but rather 5 versus 10 versus 30. If the student is far away from everyone else, they may not have any objects (people) to use for height reference.

As an afterthough, I think my DZ has everyone carrying a radio as long as they're on student status. Not sure if that means AFF7, or Pre A.

[Mad47 0]

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a lazy ass instructor (he later got chewed good by the DZO) gave my firend landing dirrections from 250+ yards away

The radio is good for assistance but it is YOUR responsibility to flare and land the thing even when radio transmission is not optimal or not working at all. In any case, I would refrain from calling a person who took you for one of the very first dives a lazy ass.