Texas_Diver 0 #1 August 16, 2005 Hi...please pardon my ignorance. I just did my 2nd tandem jump on Saturday and I am considering AFF training. Here are my questions: 1. Where online is a reliable source for injury/death statistics? I know that nothing in life is risk-free but I DO want to know the stats before I decide to pursue this further. (I'm a scuba diver and I used to own a motorcycle...risk is not a foreign word to me!) 2. What is the AVERAGE cost of gear ownership? I know there is a wide range, but how much does one expect to pay for a entry-level canopy, etc? 3. What do the different levels of certification mean? Levels A-D? Thanks in advance! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites uponone 0 #2 August 16, 2005 1. http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/2005/ 2. New: $3500-$5000ish Used: $1000-$3500ish 3. Worry about AFF 1st, you don't want to overload your head when jumping out of a plane. Baby steps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Reginald 0 #3 August 16, 2005 Most of your questions will be answered by looking them up on the US Parachute Association’s web site. http://www.uspa.org/ I would plan on new gear costing a minimum of $4,000 to $6,000. You can buy decent used gear for $2,500 to $4,000."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Texas_Diver 0 #4 August 16, 2005 QuoteMost of your questions will be answered by looking them up on the US Parachute Association’s web site. http://www.uspa.org/ I would plan on new gear costing a minimum of $4,000 to $6,000. You can buy decent used gear for $2,500 to $4,000. Side note: I love your signature line....Go, Douglas Adams!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mr17Hz 1 #5 August 16, 2005 Quote 1. Where online is a reliable source for injury/death statistics? I know that nothing in life is risk-free but I DO want to know the stats before I decide to pursue this further. (I'm a scuba diver and I used to own a motorcycle...risk is not a foreign word to me!) I found this link to be of value: http://parapub.com/parachute/statistics.htm Quote 2. What is the AVERAGE cost of gear ownership? I know there is a wide range, but how much does one expect to pay for a entry-level canopy, etc? I recently paid $3000 for my used rig (about 200 jumps) It's a year 2000 with an AAD and was maintained by a rigger. I worked out a deal where I'm paying him $500/mo for it. The best advice I can offer for gear is to not be in a hurry if you want to buy something used. Rent equipment for a while and be sure to keep your eyes open for rigs and deals. Skydiving isn't cheap, but it's not impossible to get into. pace yourself and don't skip costs. MattMatt Christenson [email protected] http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites j0nes 0 #6 August 16, 2005 Texasdiver, I applaud you for wanting to become informed. Don't let the injury/death statistics fool you though. There is a lot of danger involved with skydiving, as you've probably figured out already. However, a good number of people dying in the sport are doing so because they are pushing safety margins(exceeding wing loadings, turning too low, etc). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RumBum 0 #7 August 16, 2005 Scuba is way more dangerous than skydiving, from my recent research. you may want to look at the USPA site for stats on accidents. http://www.uspa.org/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #8 August 16, 2005 QuoteScuba is way more dangerous than skydiving, from my recent research. you may want to look at the USPA site for stats on accidents. http://www.uspa.org/ Scuba is half as dangerous, measured simply by fatality rates per dive/jump. The diver population is older and more prone to heart attacks, so it is likely even 'safer' in comparison. The injury rate is substantially different - how many scuba divers have titanium in their body? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MB38 0 #9 August 16, 2005 Quotehow many scuba divers have titanium in their body? Probably about the same number of skydivers that get the bends. I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AMax 0 #10 August 16, 2005 Quote However, a good number of people dying in the sport are doing so because they are pushing safety margins(exceeding wing loadings, turning too low, etc). Not that I am trying to say this isn't true at all, but every time I hear this I get impression that a lot of people seriously believe that they will be all right as long as they do not push the safety margins. Skydivers die because of double malfunctions, because the other skydivers collapse/destroy their canopies in collisions that happen close to the ground they die in plane crashes and yes, very conservative and safety-oriented people also die when they toggle hook it to avoid the obstacle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites j0nes 0 #11 August 16, 2005 don't get that impression (from me, at least). I am very aware that there are plenty of things to go wrong besides hooking too low. but the situation you describe in your last sentence involves someone turning too low, regardless of the excuse. there is very little room for error in this sport and that is exacerbated the higher the wing loading and the smaller the canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #12 August 16, 2005 Quote Not that I am trying to say this isn't true at all, but every time I hear this I get impression that a lot of people seriously believe that they will be all right as long as they do not push the safety margins. It may be accurate to say they cut their risk in half. But taken too far...if one does only the safest possible choices on their jumps, they may be increasing risk as their skill knife is getting dull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #13 August 16, 2005 QuoteQuotehow many scuba divers have titanium in their body? Probably about the same number of skydivers that get the bends. You jest, but there are a few skydivers who got hit by DCS. It's definitely a threat on 30k jumps, and you don't have to search far to see some here think that 22-24k jumps have the potential for it. So...now we got to find those divers with rods. Certainly it could happen - fall off a boat, wave throws person into rocks. But for the most part, a diver either dies or gets sunburned, maybe a sore shoulder from lugging around the tanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #14 August 17, 2005 QuoteHowever, a good number of people dying in the sport are doing so because they are pushing safety margins(exceeding wing loadings, turning too low, etc). A good number also die because they make a mistake at the wrong time. "He was a very conservative canopy pilot who always did straight in approaches. We have no idea why he turned that low." At least one person this year died even though he did everything right. You can reduce risk factors but you can't eliminate them. Skydiving is not a safe sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Texas_Diver 0 #15 August 17, 2005 Wow...I really don't know what a lot of the terms used in this forum mean. Are there certain moves that are dangerous? If so, why do people intentionally do them? As asked before, what do the certification levels mean? (A-D) I asked this in my original question...does anyone know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites evilivan 0 #16 August 17, 2005 QuoteAs asked before, what do the certification levels mean? (A-D) I asked this in my original question...does anyone know? Have a look here: http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2005SIM/section3.htm"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." David Brent Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #17 August 17, 2005 Quote Wow...I really don't know what a lot of the terms used in this forum mean. Are there certain moves that are dangerous? If so, why do people intentionally do them? Yes there are. The main dangerous move you'll see referred to is a "low turn" or "panic turn" or "hook turn" or a [badly performed] "swoop". These are all different but essentially each involves turning the canopy when it is inappropriate to do so. When a canopy turns it can lose altitude dramatically. It doesn’t take a whiz kid to figure out that a dramatic loss of altitude when you are close to the ground is going to hurt – ergo a turn close to the ground is going to hurt. So why do people do it? One reason is they make a mistake – for example a "panic turn" is exactly that – someone gets wrong footed and out of panic, turns their canopy when it is unsafe to do so. The answer to this is not to get in a situation where you can be wrong footed, DON'T PANIC (D.A. again) and to use safer control mechanisms such as a "flat", "flair" or "braked turn" (you'll be trained in these)... but then mistakes will happen. They key is to try and train yourself out of those mistakes before you run out of luck. Another reason people turn low to the ground is that performing a "swoop" is fun, challenging and visually impressive; therefore people want to do them. A "swoop" is essentially turning and diving your canopy towards the ground and pulling out at an altitude designed to allow the canopy to return to level flight parallel with and relative to the ground. All that energy from the dive is transferred into horizontal speed allowing the jumper to shoot along, dragging a toe across the grass or pond. Again it doesn’t take a whiz kid to work out that if you misjudge the height of your turn you don't end up looking cool dragging a toe across the grass but rather your femur and pelvis. Once more you're in a world of hurt. People are still willing to take this risk though because as I said it is rewarding and challenging... just like other elements of skydiving. Some may think it is a needless risk to swoop... but on the other hand there's no need for us to take the risk of getting out of the plane at all. Incidents happen with intentional low turns for two major reasons. One is that people just sometimes screw up regardless of how much skill and experience they have. Mistakes will always happen and there's very little room for mistakes in swooping. Jumpers minimise the likelihood of making an error by gaining a lot of skill and experience before they start to swoop. This then leads to the second kind of intentional turn injury: The jumper who has started trying to swoop long before they obtain the skills and experience necessary to perform them safely. They may get it right a few times out of luck but eventually they screw up and hurt themselves. The answer here therefore is not to try swoop manoeuvres before you have the skills to pull them off. i.e. Don't be this person. Hope all that helps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Texas_Diver 0 #18 August 17, 2005 Mr2mkg1, That was great advice. Thank you for taking the time! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
uponone 0 #2 August 16, 2005 1. http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/2005/ 2. New: $3500-$5000ish Used: $1000-$3500ish 3. Worry about AFF 1st, you don't want to overload your head when jumping out of a plane. Baby steps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #3 August 16, 2005 Most of your questions will be answered by looking them up on the US Parachute Association’s web site. http://www.uspa.org/ I would plan on new gear costing a minimum of $4,000 to $6,000. You can buy decent used gear for $2,500 to $4,000."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Texas_Diver 0 #4 August 16, 2005 QuoteMost of your questions will be answered by looking them up on the US Parachute Association’s web site. http://www.uspa.org/ I would plan on new gear costing a minimum of $4,000 to $6,000. You can buy decent used gear for $2,500 to $4,000. Side note: I love your signature line....Go, Douglas Adams!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr17Hz 1 #5 August 16, 2005 Quote 1. Where online is a reliable source for injury/death statistics? I know that nothing in life is risk-free but I DO want to know the stats before I decide to pursue this further. (I'm a scuba diver and I used to own a motorcycle...risk is not a foreign word to me!) I found this link to be of value: http://parapub.com/parachute/statistics.htm Quote 2. What is the AVERAGE cost of gear ownership? I know there is a wide range, but how much does one expect to pay for a entry-level canopy, etc? I recently paid $3000 for my used rig (about 200 jumps) It's a year 2000 with an AAD and was maintained by a rigger. I worked out a deal where I'm paying him $500/mo for it. The best advice I can offer for gear is to not be in a hurry if you want to buy something used. Rent equipment for a while and be sure to keep your eyes open for rigs and deals. Skydiving isn't cheap, but it's not impossible to get into. pace yourself and don't skip costs. MattMatt Christenson [email protected] http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
j0nes 0 #6 August 16, 2005 Texasdiver, I applaud you for wanting to become informed. Don't let the injury/death statistics fool you though. There is a lot of danger involved with skydiving, as you've probably figured out already. However, a good number of people dying in the sport are doing so because they are pushing safety margins(exceeding wing loadings, turning too low, etc). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RumBum 0 #7 August 16, 2005 Scuba is way more dangerous than skydiving, from my recent research. you may want to look at the USPA site for stats on accidents. http://www.uspa.org/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #8 August 16, 2005 QuoteScuba is way more dangerous than skydiving, from my recent research. you may want to look at the USPA site for stats on accidents. http://www.uspa.org/ Scuba is half as dangerous, measured simply by fatality rates per dive/jump. The diver population is older and more prone to heart attacks, so it is likely even 'safer' in comparison. The injury rate is substantially different - how many scuba divers have titanium in their body? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #9 August 16, 2005 Quotehow many scuba divers have titanium in their body? Probably about the same number of skydivers that get the bends. I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #10 August 16, 2005 Quote However, a good number of people dying in the sport are doing so because they are pushing safety margins(exceeding wing loadings, turning too low, etc). Not that I am trying to say this isn't true at all, but every time I hear this I get impression that a lot of people seriously believe that they will be all right as long as they do not push the safety margins. Skydivers die because of double malfunctions, because the other skydivers collapse/destroy their canopies in collisions that happen close to the ground they die in plane crashes and yes, very conservative and safety-oriented people also die when they toggle hook it to avoid the obstacle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
j0nes 0 #11 August 16, 2005 don't get that impression (from me, at least). I am very aware that there are plenty of things to go wrong besides hooking too low. but the situation you describe in your last sentence involves someone turning too low, regardless of the excuse. there is very little room for error in this sport and that is exacerbated the higher the wing loading and the smaller the canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #12 August 16, 2005 Quote Not that I am trying to say this isn't true at all, but every time I hear this I get impression that a lot of people seriously believe that they will be all right as long as they do not push the safety margins. It may be accurate to say they cut their risk in half. But taken too far...if one does only the safest possible choices on their jumps, they may be increasing risk as their skill knife is getting dull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #13 August 16, 2005 QuoteQuotehow many scuba divers have titanium in their body? Probably about the same number of skydivers that get the bends. You jest, but there are a few skydivers who got hit by DCS. It's definitely a threat on 30k jumps, and you don't have to search far to see some here think that 22-24k jumps have the potential for it. So...now we got to find those divers with rods. Certainly it could happen - fall off a boat, wave throws person into rocks. But for the most part, a diver either dies or gets sunburned, maybe a sore shoulder from lugging around the tanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #14 August 17, 2005 QuoteHowever, a good number of people dying in the sport are doing so because they are pushing safety margins(exceeding wing loadings, turning too low, etc). A good number also die because they make a mistake at the wrong time. "He was a very conservative canopy pilot who always did straight in approaches. We have no idea why he turned that low." At least one person this year died even though he did everything right. You can reduce risk factors but you can't eliminate them. Skydiving is not a safe sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Texas_Diver 0 #15 August 17, 2005 Wow...I really don't know what a lot of the terms used in this forum mean. Are there certain moves that are dangerous? If so, why do people intentionally do them? As asked before, what do the certification levels mean? (A-D) I asked this in my original question...does anyone know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
evilivan 0 #16 August 17, 2005 QuoteAs asked before, what do the certification levels mean? (A-D) I asked this in my original question...does anyone know? Have a look here: http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2005SIM/section3.htm"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." David Brent Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #17 August 17, 2005 Quote Wow...I really don't know what a lot of the terms used in this forum mean. Are there certain moves that are dangerous? If so, why do people intentionally do them? Yes there are. The main dangerous move you'll see referred to is a "low turn" or "panic turn" or "hook turn" or a [badly performed] "swoop". These are all different but essentially each involves turning the canopy when it is inappropriate to do so. When a canopy turns it can lose altitude dramatically. It doesn’t take a whiz kid to figure out that a dramatic loss of altitude when you are close to the ground is going to hurt – ergo a turn close to the ground is going to hurt. So why do people do it? One reason is they make a mistake – for example a "panic turn" is exactly that – someone gets wrong footed and out of panic, turns their canopy when it is unsafe to do so. The answer to this is not to get in a situation where you can be wrong footed, DON'T PANIC (D.A. again) and to use safer control mechanisms such as a "flat", "flair" or "braked turn" (you'll be trained in these)... but then mistakes will happen. They key is to try and train yourself out of those mistakes before you run out of luck. Another reason people turn low to the ground is that performing a "swoop" is fun, challenging and visually impressive; therefore people want to do them. A "swoop" is essentially turning and diving your canopy towards the ground and pulling out at an altitude designed to allow the canopy to return to level flight parallel with and relative to the ground. All that energy from the dive is transferred into horizontal speed allowing the jumper to shoot along, dragging a toe across the grass or pond. Again it doesn’t take a whiz kid to work out that if you misjudge the height of your turn you don't end up looking cool dragging a toe across the grass but rather your femur and pelvis. Once more you're in a world of hurt. People are still willing to take this risk though because as I said it is rewarding and challenging... just like other elements of skydiving. Some may think it is a needless risk to swoop... but on the other hand there's no need for us to take the risk of getting out of the plane at all. Incidents happen with intentional low turns for two major reasons. One is that people just sometimes screw up regardless of how much skill and experience they have. Mistakes will always happen and there's very little room for mistakes in swooping. Jumpers minimise the likelihood of making an error by gaining a lot of skill and experience before they start to swoop. This then leads to the second kind of intentional turn injury: The jumper who has started trying to swoop long before they obtain the skills and experience necessary to perform them safely. They may get it right a few times out of luck but eventually they screw up and hurt themselves. The answer here therefore is not to try swoop manoeuvres before you have the skills to pull them off. i.e. Don't be this person. Hope all that helps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Texas_Diver 0 #18 August 17, 2005 Mr2mkg1, That was great advice. Thank you for taking the time! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Texas_Diver 0 #18 August 17, 2005 Mr2mkg1, That was great advice. Thank you for taking the time! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
