Dropped a toggle during landing

[HydroGuy 0]

Tried a Safire 2 169 yesterday. Nice canopy, flew well, end cells didn't want to open. The risers it was hooked to didn't have slider stops.

Came in on an otherwise uneventful landing. Flared. Canopy "bucked", slider came flying down past the links and toggle stows to my head and the right toggle just popped out of my hand. Canopy dove left, but I was slow enough and low enough that I just kind of slid on my butt.

I had been previously flying a Pilot 168 that to me seems to have a super low toggle pressure. Because of this, I believe I had started flying with just two fingers in my toggles...you can be damn sure I won't make that mistake again. And I need to learn to stow that slider properly...will be my first priority next time I make it to the DZ.

Jim Wallace had a great quote for me later, "You learned something new and didn't get hurt. That's good in this sport."

Oh yeah, I got a 100% on my B exam.

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Dropping a toggle during landing.i don't recommend it.

Glad you were not hurt.


Four fingers through the toggles...two fingers through the dive loops.

[bob.dino 0]

I fly with two fingers in my toggles (index & middle) and three in my dive loops (middle, ring, and pinky). So far, no problems. Other canopy pilots that are far better than I fly with two or three fingers in their toggles.

It sounds like you just need to learn to 1) stow the slider and 2) not let go of the toggles when startled .

Congrats on the exam .

[diablopilot 2]

I recommend never flying with less than all 4 fingers in your toggle, and if you're using dive loops use only 2 fingers for those.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[dgskydive 0]

What he said. Damn I am agreeing with JP. what is the world coming to?

Dom

[bob.dino 0]

Hmm. I'll check with some of the canopy pilots at the DZ and get back to ya. Is your primary concern dropping of a toggle?

The reason for the 'hmm' is that last weekend I checked with a guy who has competed at the last two World Cups of Canopy Piloting and he said my toggle usage was fine and dandy. I'll see how many of the big boys I can get an opinion out of this weekend, and I'll share the results on Monday...

[Squeak 17]

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I recommend never flying with less than all 4 fingers in your toggle, and if you're using dive loops use only 2 fingers for those.

That's how I do it

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Kris 0]

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I recommend never flying with less than all 4 fingers in your toggle, and if you're using dive loops use only 2 fingers for those.

Ditto. That's how I do it as well.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[bert_man 0]

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I recommend never flying with less than all 4 fingers in your toggle, and if you're using dive loops use only 2 fingers for those.

That's what makes the most sense to me. I'm not a pro swooping tour veteran by any means, but it seems to be much safer this way (with the toggles slipped over the palms of your hands, through 4 fingers).

Take, for example, the two-fingers-through-the-toggle method. Not only does this seem to be more stressful on your fingers/tendons etc, and reduce your available power if you have to stab out of a low turn by introducing a 'weak link in the chain', but it just seems like a toggle drop waiting to happen.

Take the following example:

You use index/middle fingers in the toggle, and the same fingers for the dive loops. You initiate a left front riser turn, and partway through the turn, you realize "oh shit, i'm way too low," so you drop the riser so you can stab the toggles and save your ass from a rough landing. As you drop the riser, the toggle catches on the riser, and you end up slipping your fingers out of both. You realize this immediately, but you have already given a sharp stab at the right toggle. With all of your extra airspeed, combined with the sharp toggle stab, you swing out from under the canopy a bit, and find yourself diving at the ground even more. Since you were already so low that you were stabbing out of the corner, this sharp toggle turn only compounds the situation. In a panic, you reach up to find the left toggle again (which is now flapping in the wind) and just as your fingers re-enter the toggle, you feel the shock of mother earth snap both your femurs and dislocate your hip. Or you collide with an obstacle (or person), due to the heading change caused by the right toggle turn.

If you have 4 fingers through your toggles, and they are seated in the corner of your thumb, around your palm, your fingers are completely free to grab risers, dive loops, give a high five to the guy you landed next to, etc. There is very little risk of dropping them, and you don't need to use any effort in your fingers to do anything with them. It just (for me) feels much more natural.

What do you think?

-Ghetto
"The reason death cannot frighten me, is because life has cured me of fear."
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Cleveland Skydiving

[AAA4WAY 0]

>>I fly with two fingers in my toggles (index & middle) and three in my dive loops (middle, ring, and pinky). <<

What possible advantage can this have over holding the toggles firmly with a full four finger grip?

>>So far, no problems.

A dropped toggle at the highest energy point of the recovery arc can easily equal death. I witnessed one femur/closed head injury from a dropped toggle.

Two finger grips don't look cool and are dangerous.

[diablopilot 2]

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Is your primary concern dropping of a toggle?

Yep.

I've only one exception to this, and that's for a specific freestyle trick I'm working on. (Thanks for the advice TJ)

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[DancingFlame 0]

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Four fingers through the toggles...two fingers through the dive loops

Yeah, that's the right way :)

[Maxim 0]

I also have all 4 finger thru the toggles.. and just keep them thru the toggle when i pull the dive loops

Life is Great. Even Greater what we do with it.

[jb092 0]

I put all 4 fingers through the toggle. When I go for the dive loops, I clap the toggle in my ring and pinky and use my fore and middle finger for the dive loops. The whole time all 4 fingers are in the toggle.

What could possibly go wrong?

[goose491 0]

I had to stick my hand throught the loop in my shoelace real quick to confirm but I stick three fingers in my toggles (index, middle and ring), and two in the dive loops (index, middle)

I would put all four in the toggles and I tried it after having read a thread here on just this topic, but I like to have my pinky wrapped around the bottom tuck-tab of the toggle. I'm not sure if it's easy to visualize, but it seems more secure in my hand that way.

You still have one finger in the toggle which isn't in the diveloop, to avoid dropping both at once. And you've also got a 'pintch' on the toggle between your ring and pinky finger, like a horse-riding bridle.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[HydroGuy 0]

It seems every instructor and coach at Perris (other than JP) that I know watched my little landing fiasco. So afterwards every one of them asked me WTF happened. Every one of them told me I need four fingers in the toggles, and use two for my dive loops (index and ring)...including Clint Clawson.

Chiz knows two individuals who are no longer with us and one in a wheelchair because of dropped toggles on Hi Po landings...

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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I recommend never flying with less than all 4 fingers in your toggle, and if you're using dive loops use only 2 fingers for those.

Here is what I do: I put the toggle over all four fingers and I always keep it held into my palm with my pinkie. When I reach up for my dive loops I put three fingers in them and maintain my toggle in my palm with my pinkie. When I transition to rears I use those same three fingers (index, middle, ring) and my thumb, still holding the toggle in my palm with my pinkie. There is no way in the world I am going to drop a toggle.

[Fast 0]

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I had to stick my hand throught the loop in my shoelace real quick to confirm but I stick three fingers in my toggles (index, middle and ring), and two in the dive loops (index, middle)

I would put all four in the toggles and I tried it after having read a thread here on just this topic, but I like to have my pinky wrapped around the bottom tuck-tab of the toggle. I'm not sure if it's easy to visualize, but it seems more secure in my hand that way.

You still have one finger in the toggle which isn't in the diveloop, to avoid dropping both at once. And you've also got a 'pintch' on the toggle between your ring and pinky finger, like a horse-riding bridle.

That might work great for you but overall you are still leaving yourself more prone to toggle drops than if you put the whole toggle over your hand and locked it against your palm with your pinky. You can still use 3 fingers in the dive loops if you need to.

I guess I am like everyone else here. Toggle in hand, locked to palm with ring finger and pinky. I only need 2 fingers for my dive loops. It just seems safer.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Frenchy68 0]

I read an article in a magazine, written by an experienced jumper who, prior to starting his manoeuvre (around 1000ft AGL for him), brings his toggles around his wrists, with the brake line running through his palm (between his thumb and index finger).
Anyone else doing this?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[justinb138 0]

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I know an experienced jumper who, prior to starting his manoeuvre (around 1000ft AGL for him), brings his toggles around his wrists, with the brake line running through his palm (between his thumb and index finger).
ANyone else doing this?

That's how I do it, except I keep the line running between my index and middle finger.

[Frenchy68 0]

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I know an experienced jumper who, prior to starting his manoeuvre (around 1000ft AGL for him), brings his toggles around his wrists, with the brake line running through his palm (between his thumb and index finger).
ANyone else doing this?

That's how I do it, except I keep the line running between my index and middle finger.

What altitude do you do so?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[justinb138 0]

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Quote

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I know an experienced jumper who, prior to starting his manoeuvre (around 1000ft AGL for him), brings his toggles around his wrists, with the brake line running through his palm (between his thumb and index finger).
ANyone else doing this?

That's how I do it, except I keep the line running between my index and middle finger.

What altitude do you do so?

That's how i usually hold the toggles after i get my slider collapsed, etc... It's pretty much impossible to drop it that way, and I won't get my hands stuck either.

[Frenchy68 0]

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I know an experienced jumper who, prior to starting his manoeuvre (around 1000ft AGL for him), brings his toggles around his wrists, with the brake line running through his palm (between his thumb and index finger).
ANyone else doing this?

That's how I do it, except I keep the line running between my index and middle finger.

What altitude do you do so?

That's how i usually hold the toggles after i get my slider collapsed, etc... It's pretty much impossible to drop it that way, and I won't get my hands stuck either.

So I assume you do so pretty high. How about if you have to chop your main?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[justinb138 0]

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I know an experienced jumper who, prior to starting his manoeuvre (around 1000ft AGL for him), brings his toggles around his wrists, with the brake line running through his palm (between his thumb and index finger).
ANyone else doing this?

That's how I do it, except I keep the line running between my index and middle finger.

What altitude do you do so?

That's how i usually hold the toggles after i get my slider collapsed, etc... It's pretty much impossible to drop it that way, and I won't get my hands stuck either.

So I assume you do so pretty high. How about if you have to chop your main?

I'll let go of the toggles and chop it.

I have pretty small hands, so even with my fingers around the top of the toggle I can get my hands clear pretty easily.

[lifewithoutanet 0]

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That's how I do it, except I keep the line running between my index and middle finger.

I just can't see this as a good idea. If you needed to get out in a hurry, that could eat some time. Four fingers should be plenty to be able to hold onto the toggle. Do you do this with an altimeter on your hand?

-C.