Undermining an Instructor and Student Safety....

[Unstable 8]

This is a question I have been stewing over in my mind for quite a while Since I've become a Coach - Hopefully the answers I recive here can help make me a more effective Coach and Instructor and help those who are learning and Learning to teach...

Imagine this situation, if you will - A Coach/Instructor is working with a student on a 1 on 1 basis, teaching him/her the things that they will need to learn for their next dive. Along comes Instructor/Coach "B,", who in a condescending manner, informs the First Coach/Instructor that what they are teaching in wrong, and makes it clear to the student that they know more than the person teaching them. My question is this - Once an Instructor/Coach has been put down like this in front of a student, can it become a Safety issue to the student since he or she has learned that not everything their instructor is teaching them is correct?!?!

This does not have to be just "right" or "wrong" issues, I have only seen this happen with issues of preference or teaching styles, which would have little or no consequence to the learner. I am just looking for answers here that pertain to the image a Student will have for his Instructor or Coach after an event like this.

For the record - this has happened to me on two occasions, both were issues of personal preference and teaching styles. I simply did as I learned in my coach course, said "Excuse me, may I work with my student?" and proceded to work on the ground training for their next dive...

I know this is a complicated scenerio, and I hope I explained it well enough for you (the reader) to understand. If not, let me know and I will provide a few more examples...

Blue Skies,

Shaun Smith
Manhattan, Kansas




Edited for gramatical and spelling corrections only..

=========Shaun ==========

[Unstable 8]

Let me further add that I am not trying to come across as if I "know it all." quite the contrary, I know that I have a lot to learn and have hardly started to learn it. If I need a correction, by all means, jump right in and correct me. My only concern here is simply student safety.

=========Shaun ==========

[bodypilot1 0]

If the Instructor did what you have explained it was VERY unprofessional on his part. Everyone teaches somethings differently and thats why USPA has made this "coach" rating. If you have taught the person according to the sylibus, then simply show the rude Instructor your dive plan. If you continue to have this happen the S&TA should step in maybe.
Talk to the Instructor about it and do not do it in front of the student.

Be safe.

-

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Unstable 8]

Quote

If you continue to have this happen the S&TA should step in maybe.

This happening to me isn't a big problem - it's only happened twice. It was more of a hypothetical scenerio I've been playing over in my mind.

=========Shaun ==========

[billvon 2,435]

>Once an Instructor/Coach has been put down like this in front of a
> student, can it become a Safety issue to the student since he or she
> has learned that not everything their instructor is teaching them is
> correct?!?!

Yes and no. When I'm coaching or organizing, I make it very clear that they are no longer AFF students, and their responsibility for their lives is their own. Telling an AFF student to do something different is unacceptable; telling an experienced jumper to do something different (in front of their coach) is more rude than anything else. It can be a safety issue, but it's also part of the experience of every AFF grad out there - at some point after they graduate they _will_ get conflicting advice.

Sounds like an issue to take up with the other coach, or the chief instructor.

[HRHSkyPrincess 0]

I agree with this statement. Definitely talk with the 'offender' one on one, if that fails to solve the problem, speak with your S&TA. And, as always, out of earshot of everyone else, students, other staff, fun jumpers, tourists, dogs, etc. It is unprofessional to discuss business matters/differences of opinion, that are dz ops related where anyone can hear it. :)

*****************
Attitude is everything!

[obelixtim 102]

This guy is way out of line, and has demonstrated a degree of ignorance that proves he is not a suitable candidate to be dishing out advice in the first place.....

Personally, someone poking their nose in, the way you describe, would risk getting it flattened if they did it to me........

At the very least I'd tell him to get a job involving sex and travel......

i.e. F*** OFF....!! ......Tosser!!!.....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[flypunk 0]

The attitude of the other Instructor/Coach was very un-professional, there are ways to approach it without throwing attitude in. This being said there are also ways to prevent it.

Instructors/coaches and just humans in general will have not only different teaching methods but different responses to the same situation. There might be several right ways some of them might have adverse consequences to the learner some might not.

One way to improve this for the students and for the dz (and this are my 2c, take it or leave it) is to have an established way of teaching for your dz.

Develop a uniform program within all your instructors/coaches and make sure that they are all aware of it and follow it, it will not only prevent this type of scenario, but it will be less confusing to the student, when he has to re-learn something that was taught to him, and less hassle for the instructors since they wont have to "correct" and re-teach what the student learned in the previous jump.

...

[crutch 0]

Quote

This does not have to be just "right" or "wrong" issues, I have only seen this happen with issues of preference or teaching styles, which would have little or no consequence to the learner. I am just looking for answers here that pertain to the image a Student will have for his Instructor or Coach after an event like this.

The situation you speak of has come up at our place several times in the past (and I am sure will show up again in the future). The instructor you speak of was definitely wrong to question you in front of your "student". That being said, what is he to do if you are giving bad advice?(especially outside of the guidelines of the BSR's and your dropzone's rules) When this has happened here, we have politely called the "coach" away from the student and questioned what they were trying to explain and why that advice was given. Then after clarifing the issue, the student was either assigned a new coach or the original one continued the lesson.

There is no cut and dry answer here and needs to be dealt with in a situational manner, but belittling someone in front of anyone, is wrong no matter what.

blue skies,

art

[wmw999 2,150]

Quote

we have politely called the "coach" away from the student and questioned what they were trying to explain and why that advice was given. Then after clarifing the issue, the student was either assigned a new coach or the original one continued the lesson

That sounds most excellent.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jumpmonkeyUK 0]

as a student i would like to see the clarification of the point by perhaps a senior instructor to both instructors if it was serious enough that it could cause me concern...i think if it was well handled, that should be done automatically somehow to avoid the student even having to think about questioning his/her current instructor. Once the student has a clear idea what the debate was about then they can make a choice...personally if something was explained to me well, and it wasnt a safety issue, then i wouldnt have a problem with this really and would continue. If it was a safety issue i would probably question just more than the instructor, and go further and question whether i was at the right DZ altogether if it was a right or wrong scenario...i would be confused if there was a lack of clarity on safety.

Doubt in an instructor could perhaps lead to hesitation and doubt on unrelated but important matters, if it was left unhandled.

Just thought it might help from the other perspective.

Oh and i would think it a little unproffessional in the first place...it happens in lots of lines or work etc, but i think something as serious as aff shouldnt suffer from any ambiguity or loss of confidence in teaching.

[tombuch 0]

If the matter was a safety issue then the instructor needs to step in an offer a correction. If it's just a training issue it can probably wait until later when you guys are alone. The instructor should respect the coach and not do anything to undermine him.

As an alternative, the instructor may say something like "hey (coaches name) check out this really cool tip I have for that situation..." then offer some learning for both, followed by a quick compliment of the instructor in front of the student. This needs to be handled with tact, but it could be valuable for everybody involved. Remember, you are always operating under the supervision of the instructor and he needs to be sure the school standards are being met. Hopefully he is also helping to train and mentor you.

If you feel an instructor stepped on you with an unneeded interruption that damages the respect and trust your student has for you, then my suggestion is to quickly let the student know there are many ways of doing the same task, and perhaps we can try it the other guys way. The student can even be asked to give you some post-jump feedback about how effective the suggestion was. Be cool about it, hold your head up high and maintain your own self-respect. Your student should respond to that. Later, when you have a chance and can speak with the other instructor you should probably thank him for the suggestion but let him know he put you in a tough spot. If the instructor remains really condescending you should speak with the DZO or another respected instructor.

Being part of a team isn't always easy, either for the coach or the instructor. Just try to keep in mind everybody is learning and growing, and hopefully the result will be a well trained student and a progressively improving school program.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[kansasskydiver 0]

Also consider that the things you may have learned at a coach course from another DZ may not be the way that your current DZ of employment would prefer that you teach because of the issue of confusing students when the next coach comes along and tries to teach them something differently. Packing is a perfect example of this, students don't know what's right and wrong because everyone teaches something differently, though with coach dives, and especially teaching PRCP's and how to turn and what no, over educating and or undereducating a student can be dangerous. Although the policy of our DZ is still not set in stone, it is on the back wall for all to read along with the progression and I urge everyone to follow it to the best of their ability so we know where students have left off. I'm not sure of which 2 instances you're talking about, I can think of one, and to my knowledge I was standing next to you and you asked me for my opinion. I didn't feel that this was undermining you. My best advice, comfront the instructor who did so and advise your DZO, DZA, President about the situation or the VP. It's easier for me to handle matters like this when they happen, instead of hearing from a fellow jumper to check dz.com for a post...

I'm sure I know who it is and why you are concerned, but we can't do anything unless you let myself and or the S&TA know about it.

Blue skies,

Chris Armstrong
Manhattan, KS
KSUPC President, webmaster, DZA and assistant S&TA

<--- See look, pink dolphins DO exist!

[d604 0]

I would listen to kansasskydiver.

I’m the SO at my DZ and I get stuff second hand all the time usually well after the fact. Talk to your safety officer (or whatever you guys call it down south), and DZO etc.

Unfortunately there are few people out there that do this kind of stuff on a regular basis; you’ll get used to it and have a standard response. Most of the time the student or novice doesn’t even really know what has happened and you can move on with out to much delay.

HTH

Sean

CSPA ratings C1, C2, IA, IB, QE, RA, and EJR

[Skyrose7 0]

I don't think there was any reason for him to say anything in front of the student. Even if it was a safety issue, he could have easily butted in with some class and just ask if he could talk to you for a moment in private and then tell you what he had to say without jeopardizing the trust of your student. I can't imagine doing that to another instructor..or coach for that matter. I would say if he/she does it again, after they are done ranting, ask them if you can talk to them aside(be the bigger person and don't do it in front of your student or you are just as bad) and explain that you would prefer if he/she has advice for your coaching method to take you aside from the student as to not disturb the trust.
Good Luck!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open. JUMP.
MaryRose

[sducoach 0]

There are two issues here.
"Undermining an Instructor" and "Student safety".
As Tom indicated, safety is priority, hurt feelings or not. The manner in which it's address can change in order to make it a little more user friendly however, if safety is the issue it must be done.

Second is undermining an instructor. If it is a personality issue, address it with the instructor, face to face with at least one other friend around. Do not get into arguing about the incident. All that proves is who can make the best argument. Take politics for an example, truth has very little to do with anything, it's the perception of the truth.
Also, make sure you have taken the comment in the correct context. Was the instructor trying to put someone else down or educate them in a manner that might have been a little to direct for their liking? Some people simply cannot take "constructive criticism" no matter how it's presented.
You will receive many condemnations of the instructor here however, we were not there, did not hear it, do not know what was said, or why it was said so......
Know the facts and be honest even if it hurts. Pride heals most of the time faster than our bodies.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[riggerrob 561]

This reminds me of an incident this past weekend. I was helping a freefall student select a jumpsuit. "Bob Butinsky" suggested that she jump without a jumpsuit.
Andrew said "FUCK OFF BOB!"
The student thanked us and tried on another jumpsuit.
Understand that she has been hanging around the DZ for years, her boyfriend is an instructor and she knows Bob for the obnoxious fellow that he is.

[sducoach 0]

"BOB"

Do you know that if you spell that backwards, or look at it in a mirror....................................

James 4:8

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

I think if it was me, and another instructor was giving advice I didn't agree with I would pull the instructor aside (in private) to clarify with him/her what he was saying. There are lots of instances when there is no right or wrong answer because the task can be accomplished in more than one way. However, emergency procedures for example are pretty straight forward at least when learning to pull your handles in order.

The DZ I am at now teaches different EPs than the other DZ I used to instruct at with regard to a 2 canopy out situation. I had to catch myself when my instinct was to teach what my old DZ did so as not to misinform or confuse the student with what he was taught.

However, if I did happen to tell someone the other way on accident (and both ways are acceptable) I would be pretty offended just from a standpoint of professional courtesy if another instructor completely undermined my authority in front of a student when he or she could have just as easily pulled me aside and first asked me to clarify my method before correcting me.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."