400-way

[Elisha 1]

Sorry to be a dufus with over 50 jumps, but what do "funnel", "chunk" and "base" mean? How can you have a "300 person base"?

[billvon 2,400]

> Does anyone have any Idea what the fall rate would be for
> something that large? Faster or Slower?

Depends on the design, the base speed, the organizer's preferences etc. At the 300-way, speeds were dismally slow - I recall 108mph for one dive. I was wearing a sweatshirt for drag. At the 357-way, speeds were around 124, and with the same sort of suit I was wearing 7-8 pounds of lead.

[rehmwa 2]

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1- I believe that there are some people who don't get it.
2 - Fly the slot, then take grips.
3 - Lift the arms and look under to keep the fallrate up.
4 - Legs out, drive in, and take the pressure off the base.

I like this. Even on smaller ways, one thing I 'suspect' is that if there is tension, it's next to impossible to get the fall rate back up (so arching harder isn't really helping if it just results in more tension - likely it's resulting in trapping air and making it worse, not better). So the number 2 and number 4 above are important in combination and taking off tension has to be paramount - fall faster in a way that also relieves tension.

Here's why I'm thinking this - In a round base to get 'down', it seems that even in a small base, people try to take high grips, or 'punching it out' by sinking their hips and tucking their legs. Both 'feel' right (I mean they are tight and their lower backs are straining), but I believe they are making things wrose. High grips just increases surface area, punching it just seems to increase tension and turn the round into a big upside down cup. Seems that driving the center of the base down and in would be most effective - lower grips would allow more upper body control.

Does this sound right? Big way mechanics are something I'd like to learn more on.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[BillyVance 34]

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> Does anyone have any Idea what the fall rate would be for
> something that large? Faster or Slower?

Depends on the design, the base speed, the organizer's preferences etc. At the 300-way, speeds were dismally slow - I recall 108mph for one dive. I was wearing a sweatshirt for drag. At the 357-way, speeds were around 124, and with the same sort of suit I was wearing 7-8 pounds of lead.

And if I recall correctly, the 1998 Chicago 300 way 6 way base averaged 25 to 30 pounds of lead apiece!! They were screaming! Roger Nelson had the belief that if the base was fast enough, nobody should ever go low. It does slow as the formation grows...

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[billvon 2,400]

Funnel - instability of a dive/section of a dive that makes people "fall out" of it. A base funnel is usually a base that didn't launch well and went unstable.

Chunk - large 'chunk' of linked people exiting from an aircraft. Often used for a base.

Base - the center of the dive; also the target for approaching jumpers. Exact definition changes depending on the organizer. In the 300-way I was part of the 104-way 'base', but I was still pretty far from the center. Often the 4-8 way in the center will be referred to as "the base."

[kallend 1,623]

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> Does anyone have any Idea what the fall rate would be for
> something that large? Faster or Slower?

Depends on the design, the base speed, the organizer's preferences etc. At the 300-way, speeds were dismally slow - I recall 108mph for one dive. I was wearing a sweatshirt for drag. At the 357-way, speeds were around 124, and with the same sort of suit I was wearing 7-8 pounds of lead.

And if I recall correctly, the 1998 Chicago 300 way 6 way base averaged 25 to 30 pounds of lead apiece!! They were screaming! Roger Nelson had the belief that if the base was fast enough, nobody should ever go low. It does slow as the formation grows...

Your recollection is true, and IMO it is fallacious reasoning, because those docking on the base or near it have to wear a lot of lead too, so their go-low potential really hasn't changed much. Roger's 2000 attempts were plagued by people in the inner 80 going low despite a ballistic base speed.

I think a better approach is to engineer the formation design so that it doesn't slow significantly as it builds. This means avoiding any densely packed parts of the formation. Large open loops and whackers = good, zippers = bad.

Now sequential big ways add a whole extra dimension of complexity to formation design.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Elisha 1]

grazie

[ChangoLanzao 0]

I'll bet if they all wear BirdMan suits and no weights they could land it!

[white_falcon 0]

and if they add ONE more birdman, they wont even need a plane to get to altitude.

lol

scott

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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And if I recall correctly, the 1998 Chicago 300 way 6 way base averaged 25 to 30 pounds of lead apiece!! They were screaming! Roger Nelson had the belief that if the base was fast enough, nobody should ever go low. It does slow as the formation grows...

I think at one point a member in the 2000 attempt had on 40lbs (he actually made a chain link vest and he did have emergency procedures for it). The could scream to about 150 if they wanted to, but that wasn't the point. Norge and Roger wanted Da Base to come out solid 100% of the time, and keep a consistent speed. He wanted the entire 300 way to be going 120mph so everyone had range. He knew it would eventually float once it was completed and people got lazy and relaxed.

Da Base always used high grips, but everyone in the base had legs out to drive in, and always looked under their grips.

But, as Kallend pointed out - there was an issue with too many people going low on each attempt anyhow.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Mirage63 0]

Maybe Kallend, or somebody of great skill could point out how with an average fall rate of 120 mph people could still be going low. That's smoking along at pretty good pace.

Or did it start at 120 and slow waaaaay down?

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

The video showed the issue - people over shot the formation by pulling out of their dives too late. They heard how much weight the base had on and figured it was going to be ballistic.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[billvon 2,400]

> how with an average fall rate of 120 mph people could still be going low.

You can go low on anything. It's just as bad to dock and float as it is to go low, so often jumpers will add weight (or reduce drag) when they hear the fall rate is increasing. And they go sailing right past the base.

An example - Dale, a 4-event veteran of the World Team, heard that they were going to pick up the fall rate during one dive in '04. He added ten pounds. On the next dive, they did get the fall rate to about 120 - and he couldn't stay with it.

[kallend 1,623]

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> how with an average fall rate of 120 mph people could still be going low.

You can go low on anything. It's just as bad to dock and float as it is to go low, so often jumpers will add weight (or reduce drag) when they hear the fall rate is increasing. And they go sailing right past the base.

An example - Dale, a 4-event veteran of the World Team, heard that they were going to pick up the fall rate during one dive in '04. He added ten pounds. On the next dive, they did get the fall rate to about 120 - and he couldn't stay with it.

That's about it. When jumpers in the inner 80 heard that the base was wearing mucho lead, they added weight themselves, often too much. That's why I said that Roger's reasoning was fallacious.

A lot of big ways end up with self-fulfilling prophecies - people jumping with Roger Ponce expect a slow fall rate so they often wear tee shirts over their jump suits and, voila, you get a slow fall rate.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[flyangel2 2]

If everyone goes in a slot that works best for their weight, then there won't be people going low or people having to wear t-shirts.

For example, a 200 pound guy behind little ole me on a outside wacker, wearing a t-shirt. I'm one back from the base wearing 10 pounds of weight.

It's not about being on the outside of the formation, but some people let ego get in the way and want to be out there.

For me it doesn't matter were I go, I can add weights or take them off. I just want to build the formation, so I say, move up fat guys

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[kallend 1,623]

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If everyone goes in a slot that works best for their weight, then there won't be people going low or people having to wear t-shirts.

For example, a 200 pound guy behind little ole me on a outside wacker, wearing a t-shirt. I'm one back from the base wearing 10 pounds of weight.

It's not about being on the outside of the formation, but some people let ego get in the way and want to be out there.

For me it doesn't matter were I go, I can add weights or take them off. I just want to build the formation, so I say, move up fat guys

Must be why I was docking on the base in the 80 ways at Dallas last week! Fat old me!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[flyangel2 2]

Yup, you got a fat ass

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Mockingbird 0]

I'm still sopping wet behind the ears, but I guess this will be explained to me somewhere along the way... but I don't understand how everyone can break off and track in enough different directions not to hit anyone above or below when their canopies open. Scares the bejeebers out of me.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[gemini 0]

I couldn't figure out why they would have me and Fortson docking behind you either. Maybe it was to challenge us!?!

Blue skies,

Jim

[BillyVance 34]

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I'm still sopping wet behind the ears, but I guess this will be explained to me somewhere along the way... but I don't understand how everyone can break off and track in enough different directions not to hit anyone above or below when their canopies open. Scares the bejeebers out of me.

It comes with experience.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[billvon 2,400]

>but I don't understand how everyone can break off and track in
> enough different directions not to hit anyone above or below when
> their canopies open . . .

The most basic answer is fear. Fear can really motivate you to be a better tracker. Some other tricks -

1. Pullouts. Often people will just pull in place, one every 2-3 seconds, and take the center of the dive as their airspace. Also a good signal to outside people to begin breakoff.

2. Tracking teams. A leader will 'lead' a group of people away from the center for 10 seconds or so, then they will break off from their team to find clear air. A lot easier to get 12 teams clear of the base than 120 individual people.

3. Breakoff waves. Often the outer ring will break high and track until they are very low (2500) and the next ring will break and not track as far (i.e. to 3500.) This gives some extra separation.

On WT04 all the above was happening. People pulled in place in the center, tracking teams led groups away from the center, and people in the tracking teams themselves pulled during the track in a carefully thought out sequence.

[Mirage63 0]

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It's not about being on the outside of the formation, but some people let ego get in the way and want to be out there.

Not to take ANYTHING away from you skinny late divers, but being a fat ol boy, I've spent most my big way time as a mid to early diver. The few times I've been way outside (POP's two years ago I was an anchor on the last wacker) I found the slot to be fairly easy. In basic you are sitting close to your slot waiting for the formation to come together. If your a big person your paying close attention to the fall rate.

It for the most part is a very safe slot. You leave early, and track far. Clear air on opening. You also get to whine about "I didn't get to touch anyone"

Mid divers have lot's of traffic all around them, and need to get in as fast as possible - but smoothly so that the formation has building time.

Not to mention that if everyone gets out of the plane on time, and the plane formation is good the dives (length) aren't all that impressive anyway.

Over all, I believe the real ego slots are the mid diver and the later slots are much, much easier.

[mjosparky 3]

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If everyone goes in a slot that works best for their weight, then there won't be people going low or people having to wear t-shirts.

For example, a 200 pound guy behind little ole me on a outside wacker, wearing a t-shirt. I'm one back from the base wearing 10 pounds of weight.

It's not about being on the outside of the formation, but some people let ego get in the way and want to be out there.

For me it doesn't matter were I go, I can add weights or take them off. I just want to build the formation, so I say, move up fat guys

Who are you calling fat?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Mockingbird 0]

Bill, I can see why tracking is such an important skill to master. How do people practice tracking when there are no immovable markers in the sky to guage your distance, speed, and angle etc. by?

Thanks for that info, by the way!

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[jumpwally 0]

I don't understand how wearing a tee shirt over your jumpsuit makes you fall slower? and what would be the result on a big way if no one used jumpsuits?...thanx

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083