CSpenceFLY 1 #26 February 20, 2006 QuoteThe student can work without a coach or instructor on the skills to complete the A license card. And then when ready basically test out. Almost every big sport out there requires money. That is not how the program is setup or being implemented.I agree,everything takes money.I just don't see making it more expensive than it needs to be. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #27 February 20, 2006 In reguards to safety.No one has shown me that skydiving is safer for the student "non-licenced" jumper now than when I started 8 years ago.At the DZ I started at someone had to have at least 200 jumps to jump with a new person and even then sometimes that was not aloud.So in that case the requirements have been cut in half and the student has to pay for someone elses slot. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #28 February 20, 2006 QuoteDo you feel that it is okay to have a person with 100 jumps teaching a jumper turns for the first time? If it means that student time or dollars will be re-routed to cover the expense of canopy coaching, than sure, that sounds great. Seriously, fuck turns. Who cares what your turns look like? As long as they are intentional, and you are in control, you're golden. Cranking nice turns is a game. I do one or two jumps per year where my turns count for anything, and even then it's a FUN four way. See the caps? FUN. I use my canopy contol skills on every jump, and they keep me alive on every jump. Lets stop being so concerned with freefall stuff. If they can get and remain stable, and pull on time, they're good, lets move on to the next phase of the skydive, the canopy ride. Lets face it, you can teach someone to freefall in an afternoon (it's called the FJC). It's really not that hard. It's just falling. A rock can do it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skymonkey2 0 #29 February 20, 2006 Yes the program is out lined this way if you read thru the IRM, in the later categories it states it, and the student can self evalute themselves for there card...........AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #30 February 20, 2006 QuoteWhere they went wrong is in lessening the training required for jumpers to instruct students. I've seen people argue on this forum that jumpers with 100 to 200 jumps are not experienced, yet you are only required to have 100 jumps to get a coach rating. Do you feel that it is okay to have a person with 100 jumps teaching a jumper turns for the first time? With this new system they will be allowed to take a static line student as soon as they complete their clear and pull(7th jump). That means the student will have no other freefall experience. Would you have a coach do the same thing for AFF. That means it will be the students 4th jump. This argument is not about what is more important to the student (canopy skills or freefall skills). It is that the USPA is dropping their standards for student instruction.Quote Good post, I couldn’t agree more. When I first started jumping I went through old school AFF training, 7 pass/fail skydives with AFFI’s then off to “Level 8’s”. The way Level 8’s was handled where I learned was the person doing the Level 8, if I remember correctly was any D licensed holder or someone with D license qualifications as far as jump numbers were concerned at $75 each and overall I did not learn much when compared to the 20 jump tandem progression program that is utilized at the DZ where I work and only AFFI’s train students. I wish the standards for getting an AFF Rating were higher.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #31 February 20, 2006 QuoteSeriously, fuck turns. Who cares what your turns look like? As long as they are intentional, and you are in control, you're golden. Cranking nice turns is a game. I do one or two jumps per year where my turns count for anything, and even then it's a FUN four way. See the caps? FUN. I use my canopy contol skills on every jump, and they keep me alive on every jump. Lets stop being so concerned with freefall stuff. If they can get and remain stable, and pull on time, they're good, lets move on to the next phase of the skydive, the canopy ride. Lets face it, you can teach someone to freefall in an afternoon (it's called the FJC). It's really not that hard. It's just falling. A rock can do it. Totally corect! God Post worth repeating...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skymonkey2 0 #32 February 20, 2006 Good point, there were a far amount of dz's that required the level 8, so coaching is not new to the sport and the prices are pretty much the same. Now on the AFF rating, you can blame course directors for the standards not USPA! students are our future train them wellAFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BadAndy 0 #33 February 20, 2006 Like I said on another forum on another site, rating holders work their asses off to get their ratings, so if you want to jump with students, get the ratings!!! This is a serious safety concern. Not everyone can teach and/ or even has the patience. And lets face it, it takes a special type to work with students. And also lets face it, there are A SHIT LOAD of D license jumpers with some REALLY bad habits, who should NOT even so much as say hi to students.Blue Skies, Safe Flights, COLD BEER, Bad Andy S&TA D-24545 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skydvr823 0 #34 February 20, 2006 YOU! You are exactly what I'm talking about here. (Lets face it, you can teach someone to freefall in an afternoon (it's called the FJC). It's really not that hard. It's just falling. A rock can do it.) Thank you for making my point. You will be the kind of person that will be able to teach students. Turns are a "Survival Skill". That is why we as AFF Instructors teach them. At the end of every skydive every jumper has to be able to deploy their parachute stable. If they can't do that then they probably won't have the opportunity to use their canopy. We all use our canopy skills after every skydive. That is not what is in question. You need to sit down re-read my previous posts and get a clue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #35 February 20, 2006 QuoteYOU! You are exactly what I'm talking about here Im not following you here.... QuoteTurns are a "Survival Skill". Let me clarify. I agree with the AFF program up to about jump #7 or 8. Beyond that, I think it's gotten a little out of hand. Like I said, if you can control your turns (what is that AFF lv 4 or 5?) you're good to go. Lets move on to other things. If you want to perfect your turns, there are coaches and camps, and all sorts of options for after you've learned some other surivial skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #36 February 21, 2006 QuoteTurns are a "Survival Skill". I am always eager to better myself and learn by gaining others perspectives, so please bear with me. How are turns a survival skill?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skydvr823 0 #37 February 21, 2006 For heading maintenance and hover control, Cat-B and Cat-C. Also to help prevent line twist and other malfunctions caused by unstable deployment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #38 February 21, 2006 QuoteExample= Joe Blow gets his/her A-License then goes out and makes 450-475 solo jumps, takes the tests and gets their D-license. That person can now go and... ...not exist. A person with 500 solo jumps ? Who suddenly decides to start jumping with novices ? That is rarer than Elvis sightings, so it is pointless to discuss it. I know people with 500 (or even a 1000) jumps who wouldn't be very good coaches. However, when someone has 25 jumps, they will be doing basic skill drills. Most people with 500 jumps can handle that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,121 #39 February 21, 2006 QuoteI've seen people argue on this forum that jumpers with 100 to 200 jumps are not experienced, yet you are only required to have 100 jumps to get a coach rating. Do you feel that it is okay to have a person with 100 jumps teaching a jumper turns for the first time?A lot of students were taught by instructors in the days when you needed a C license (then 100 jumps) to become an I. It didn't happen that often then, and, ya know -- the ICC (and the JCC) taught a lot about how to teach things like turns. Canopy control was less challenging before you had students on squares -- teach them to PLF and give them a good spot on a static line, and they were probably fine. Do I think more experience is good? Yup. But I think that long experience has proven that setting a low minimum bar when the skill set being conveyed is small (i.e. non-AFF) is survivable. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skymonkey2 0 #40 February 21, 2006 This is not a true statement, let me ask you this, do travel away from Z-hills much? and if so do you see all different size dzs? If you says yes then you might want to retract your statement. But it is a crying shame that the standards have been lowered. That is what this is all about. If we don't give the students (customers, and new friends) what they are paying for then we as a community have failed. You always here on this site about standards for AFF I's being to easy, so why are they being lowered for the other ratings.AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LawnDart21 0 #41 February 21, 2006 I think its important to acknowledge that even though the qualification has been added to allow D-Licensed skydivers to jump with cleared for self supervising students, that doesnt mean DZOs and instructoral staff must allow them all to do so. In thoery a jump planner is still going to be filled out and need to be signed off by an appropriately rated instructor, so if a self supervised student ends up planning to do a 2 way with a D-License jumper with questionable skills, the DZO or instructor can still stop the jump. Your intentions are good, but you are missing the point that there are a number of exceptionally talented D-License holders that are also very good teachers. For whatever reason they choose to let their ratings expire (or maybe a 4 way RW teammember, never had the time to get the rating), but they still have a tremendous amount of knowledge, and are very capable of passing that knowledge on. Maybe not in your preferred coach course style, but still appropriate info being passed along. Lastly, how many Coaches stop at a Coach rating? Most go on to get AFF or Tandem ratings. That said, (I've only been to 15 DZs or so) some DZs Ive been to don't have enough coaches avaialble for self supervising students, becuase on a busy day, they may be too busy doing tandems or AFF jumps, then the self supervised jumper can either A) Do a solo, B) sit on the ground waiting, or C) make a coached jump with a competent D-Licence holder. In that instance, I dont see any problem with a skilled, instructor or DZO approved D-License holder making a coach jump with them. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #42 February 21, 2006 QuoteI agree with what you said. I am an AFF, Static Line, and Tandem Instructor. I'm also a Coach Course Director and have seen a lot of D-license skydivers that can not skydive very well themselves much less know how to teach someone else how to skydive. Example= Joe Blow gets his/her A-License then goes out and makes 450-475 solo jumps, takes the tests and gets their D-license. That person can now go and make jumps with students without having proven to anyone that they have the Air/Teaching skills required to properly instruct. We read on these very forums everyday about how low-time skydivers jumping beyond their skill level get hurt. What will happen to their skill level now? The USPA just released a video(Fly to Survive) regarding canopy skills and how younger skydivers should look to experienced people like the PD Factory Team and other Canopy COACHES for advise. What about Air skills? I guess that Freefall skills aren't as important as Canopy skills. I am someone who until now has had the highest regard for the USPA and what they try to do for the sport of skydiving. It looks to me like the DZO's on the USPA Board are looking out for themselves and not for the future and safety of the skydiving industry. At this time I think we should all give a big round of applause to the USPA Board for taking the sport of skydiving back about 10 years in the safety and training of students. Do you have any actual data to show that novices jumping with "D" licensed skydivers prior to the ISP had any more accidents than novices jumping with coaches after the ISP, or is this just a guess on your part?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #43 February 21, 2006 Quote A question is posed about allowing D-license holders to jump with unlicensed students who are signed off for self-supervision in relative work. A ratio of a minimum of one D-license holder to one student seems practical with a maximum size of four people. This was approved. Is that D-license and 500 jumps, or just the license? Worst scenario would seem to be someone that got their 200 just before the Sept 2003 deadline and only put in another 100 or so since. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MikeTJumps 4 #44 February 21, 2006 It is a "D-license holder." The jumps were not the criterion and the S&T committee apparently thought there would be a minimal concern since everything is still done under the overall supervision of a properly rated instructor.Mike Turoff Instructor Examiner, USPA Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tombuch 0 #45 February 21, 2006 QuoteIt is a "D-license holder." The jumps were not the criterion and the S&T committee apparently thought there would be a minimal concern since everything is still done under the overall supervision of a properly rated instructor. I gotta disagree with that position of the board. In a perfect world DZO's and supervising instructors would care about safety and supervision, and a D license holder would face a tough check out before being cleared to fly with or teach students. Likewise, the term "self-supervision" would really mean that the student was ready to gear up, spot, and handle any freefall, canopy, or traffic pattern problem alone. But in the real world there are at least a few DZO's that will gladly throw a warm body into the mix and just not care, as long as the cost is low and it's easy to push the non-rating holder into doing whatever the DZO wants. There are far too many DZ's where supervision doesn't exist at all, and USPA seems unwilling to deal with the problem at that level. The lack of DZ oversight is at least as serious as the lack of instructor oversight. Back in the day (...and I mean last week) an S&TA could approve any experienced jumper to fly with a student who had been cleared for self supervision, and there was at least a process in place to drive some level of oversight. Now, it's a free for all. Any D licensed jumper is as good as any coach as far as USPA is concerned. No real approval or oversight is required, and no single person actually takes responsibility for making the approval of a D license holder to fly with a student. I don't think I would have a problem with the change if USPA actually enforced some standard of supervision, responsibility, or professionalism at the drop zone level, but at this point USPA has become close to worthless as a means of protecting students from poor drop zones or dangerous practices. I'm really disappointed by the change, but really, it's just more of the same, and what I have come to expect from a BOD that manages safety in support of the interests of DZO's and not students. .Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jlmiracle 7 #46 February 21, 2006 Doesn't a D licensed holder have more jumps than someone who had just enough jumps to become a coach? jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CSpenceFLY 1 #47 February 21, 2006 Yep,no matter when they got their D. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MikeTJumps 4 #48 February 21, 2006 Well Tom, you've got a right to disagree, but without coming to the BOD meeting and/or making your point of view known (in advance if you don't come to the meeting), you will have to accept the fact that there were at least eight people in the S&T committee meeting room and several observers that discussed the pros and cons of the decision in depth and that the whole BOD voted on the issue in a manner that the motion passed. Yes, in a perfect world, there would be no problem. As the sport evolves, the BOD tries to move with the demand of the members and I believe that is what they have done in this instance. Several waivers have been granted concerning this issue in the past, and as those waiver requests increased in number, it became obvious to the S&T committee that the issue needed to be addressed with a rule change.Mike Turoff Instructor Examiner, USPA Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skymonkey2 0 #49 February 22, 2006 I agree with Tom, I have been to a board meeting, I talked to some one that was at the board meeting and said that only one member disagreed with it and there was hardly any discusssion, niether the S&TA Committee and the Full Baord gave it much discussion.AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CSpenceFLY 1 #50 February 22, 2006 Students are our future.Help keep them in the sport.Jump with them for free. Our sport is being raped and robbed one coach jump at a time. . 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AFFI 0 #31 February 20, 2006 QuoteSeriously, fuck turns. Who cares what your turns look like? As long as they are intentional, and you are in control, you're golden. Cranking nice turns is a game. I do one or two jumps per year where my turns count for anything, and even then it's a FUN four way. See the caps? FUN. I use my canopy contol skills on every jump, and they keep me alive on every jump. Lets stop being so concerned with freefall stuff. If they can get and remain stable, and pull on time, they're good, lets move on to the next phase of the skydive, the canopy ride. Lets face it, you can teach someone to freefall in an afternoon (it's called the FJC). It's really not that hard. It's just falling. A rock can do it. Totally corect! God Post worth repeating...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skymonkey2 0 #32 February 20, 2006 Good point, there were a far amount of dz's that required the level 8, so coaching is not new to the sport and the prices are pretty much the same. Now on the AFF rating, you can blame course directors for the standards not USPA! students are our future train them wellAFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BadAndy 0 #33 February 20, 2006 Like I said on another forum on another site, rating holders work their asses off to get their ratings, so if you want to jump with students, get the ratings!!! This is a serious safety concern. Not everyone can teach and/ or even has the patience. And lets face it, it takes a special type to work with students. And also lets face it, there are A SHIT LOAD of D license jumpers with some REALLY bad habits, who should NOT even so much as say hi to students.Blue Skies, Safe Flights, COLD BEER, Bad Andy S&TA D-24545 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydvr823 0 #34 February 20, 2006 YOU! You are exactly what I'm talking about here. (Lets face it, you can teach someone to freefall in an afternoon (it's called the FJC). It's really not that hard. It's just falling. A rock can do it.) Thank you for making my point. You will be the kind of person that will be able to teach students. Turns are a "Survival Skill". That is why we as AFF Instructors teach them. At the end of every skydive every jumper has to be able to deploy their parachute stable. If they can't do that then they probably won't have the opportunity to use their canopy. We all use our canopy skills after every skydive. That is not what is in question. You need to sit down re-read my previous posts and get a clue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #35 February 20, 2006 QuoteYOU! You are exactly what I'm talking about here Im not following you here.... QuoteTurns are a "Survival Skill". Let me clarify. I agree with the AFF program up to about jump #7 or 8. Beyond that, I think it's gotten a little out of hand. Like I said, if you can control your turns (what is that AFF lv 4 or 5?) you're good to go. Lets move on to other things. If you want to perfect your turns, there are coaches and camps, and all sorts of options for after you've learned some other surivial skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #36 February 21, 2006 QuoteTurns are a "Survival Skill". I am always eager to better myself and learn by gaining others perspectives, so please bear with me. How are turns a survival skill?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydvr823 0 #37 February 21, 2006 For heading maintenance and hover control, Cat-B and Cat-C. Also to help prevent line twist and other malfunctions caused by unstable deployment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #38 February 21, 2006 QuoteExample= Joe Blow gets his/her A-License then goes out and makes 450-475 solo jumps, takes the tests and gets their D-license. That person can now go and... ...not exist. A person with 500 solo jumps ? Who suddenly decides to start jumping with novices ? That is rarer than Elvis sightings, so it is pointless to discuss it. I know people with 500 (or even a 1000) jumps who wouldn't be very good coaches. However, when someone has 25 jumps, they will be doing basic skill drills. Most people with 500 jumps can handle that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,121 #39 February 21, 2006 QuoteI've seen people argue on this forum that jumpers with 100 to 200 jumps are not experienced, yet you are only required to have 100 jumps to get a coach rating. Do you feel that it is okay to have a person with 100 jumps teaching a jumper turns for the first time?A lot of students were taught by instructors in the days when you needed a C license (then 100 jumps) to become an I. It didn't happen that often then, and, ya know -- the ICC (and the JCC) taught a lot about how to teach things like turns. Canopy control was less challenging before you had students on squares -- teach them to PLF and give them a good spot on a static line, and they were probably fine. Do I think more experience is good? Yup. But I think that long experience has proven that setting a low minimum bar when the skill set being conveyed is small (i.e. non-AFF) is survivable. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skymonkey2 0 #40 February 21, 2006 This is not a true statement, let me ask you this, do travel away from Z-hills much? and if so do you see all different size dzs? If you says yes then you might want to retract your statement. But it is a crying shame that the standards have been lowered. That is what this is all about. If we don't give the students (customers, and new friends) what they are paying for then we as a community have failed. You always here on this site about standards for AFF I's being to easy, so why are they being lowered for the other ratings.AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #41 February 21, 2006 I think its important to acknowledge that even though the qualification has been added to allow D-Licensed skydivers to jump with cleared for self supervising students, that doesnt mean DZOs and instructoral staff must allow them all to do so. In thoery a jump planner is still going to be filled out and need to be signed off by an appropriately rated instructor, so if a self supervised student ends up planning to do a 2 way with a D-License jumper with questionable skills, the DZO or instructor can still stop the jump. Your intentions are good, but you are missing the point that there are a number of exceptionally talented D-License holders that are also very good teachers. For whatever reason they choose to let their ratings expire (or maybe a 4 way RW teammember, never had the time to get the rating), but they still have a tremendous amount of knowledge, and are very capable of passing that knowledge on. Maybe not in your preferred coach course style, but still appropriate info being passed along. Lastly, how many Coaches stop at a Coach rating? Most go on to get AFF or Tandem ratings. That said, (I've only been to 15 DZs or so) some DZs Ive been to don't have enough coaches avaialble for self supervising students, becuase on a busy day, they may be too busy doing tandems or AFF jumps, then the self supervised jumper can either A) Do a solo, B) sit on the ground waiting, or C) make a coached jump with a competent D-Licence holder. In that instance, I dont see any problem with a skilled, instructor or DZO approved D-License holder making a coach jump with them. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #42 February 21, 2006 QuoteI agree with what you said. I am an AFF, Static Line, and Tandem Instructor. I'm also a Coach Course Director and have seen a lot of D-license skydivers that can not skydive very well themselves much less know how to teach someone else how to skydive. Example= Joe Blow gets his/her A-License then goes out and makes 450-475 solo jumps, takes the tests and gets their D-license. That person can now go and make jumps with students without having proven to anyone that they have the Air/Teaching skills required to properly instruct. We read on these very forums everyday about how low-time skydivers jumping beyond their skill level get hurt. What will happen to their skill level now? The USPA just released a video(Fly to Survive) regarding canopy skills and how younger skydivers should look to experienced people like the PD Factory Team and other Canopy COACHES for advise. What about Air skills? I guess that Freefall skills aren't as important as Canopy skills. I am someone who until now has had the highest regard for the USPA and what they try to do for the sport of skydiving. It looks to me like the DZO's on the USPA Board are looking out for themselves and not for the future and safety of the skydiving industry. At this time I think we should all give a big round of applause to the USPA Board for taking the sport of skydiving back about 10 years in the safety and training of students. Do you have any actual data to show that novices jumping with "D" licensed skydivers prior to the ISP had any more accidents than novices jumping with coaches after the ISP, or is this just a guess on your part?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #43 February 21, 2006 Quote A question is posed about allowing D-license holders to jump with unlicensed students who are signed off for self-supervision in relative work. A ratio of a minimum of one D-license holder to one student seems practical with a maximum size of four people. This was approved. Is that D-license and 500 jumps, or just the license? Worst scenario would seem to be someone that got their 200 just before the Sept 2003 deadline and only put in another 100 or so since. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeTJumps 4 #44 February 21, 2006 It is a "D-license holder." The jumps were not the criterion and the S&T committee apparently thought there would be a minimal concern since everything is still done under the overall supervision of a properly rated instructor.Mike Turoff Instructor Examiner, USPA Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #45 February 21, 2006 QuoteIt is a "D-license holder." The jumps were not the criterion and the S&T committee apparently thought there would be a minimal concern since everything is still done under the overall supervision of a properly rated instructor. I gotta disagree with that position of the board. In a perfect world DZO's and supervising instructors would care about safety and supervision, and a D license holder would face a tough check out before being cleared to fly with or teach students. Likewise, the term "self-supervision" would really mean that the student was ready to gear up, spot, and handle any freefall, canopy, or traffic pattern problem alone. But in the real world there are at least a few DZO's that will gladly throw a warm body into the mix and just not care, as long as the cost is low and it's easy to push the non-rating holder into doing whatever the DZO wants. There are far too many DZ's where supervision doesn't exist at all, and USPA seems unwilling to deal with the problem at that level. The lack of DZ oversight is at least as serious as the lack of instructor oversight. Back in the day (...and I mean last week) an S&TA could approve any experienced jumper to fly with a student who had been cleared for self supervision, and there was at least a process in place to drive some level of oversight. Now, it's a free for all. Any D licensed jumper is as good as any coach as far as USPA is concerned. No real approval or oversight is required, and no single person actually takes responsibility for making the approval of a D license holder to fly with a student. I don't think I would have a problem with the change if USPA actually enforced some standard of supervision, responsibility, or professionalism at the drop zone level, but at this point USPA has become close to worthless as a means of protecting students from poor drop zones or dangerous practices. I'm really disappointed by the change, but really, it's just more of the same, and what I have come to expect from a BOD that manages safety in support of the interests of DZO's and not students. .Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #46 February 21, 2006 Doesn't a D licensed holder have more jumps than someone who had just enough jumps to become a coach? jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #47 February 21, 2006 Yep,no matter when they got their D. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeTJumps 4 #48 February 21, 2006 Well Tom, you've got a right to disagree, but without coming to the BOD meeting and/or making your point of view known (in advance if you don't come to the meeting), you will have to accept the fact that there were at least eight people in the S&T committee meeting room and several observers that discussed the pros and cons of the decision in depth and that the whole BOD voted on the issue in a manner that the motion passed. Yes, in a perfect world, there would be no problem. As the sport evolves, the BOD tries to move with the demand of the members and I believe that is what they have done in this instance. Several waivers have been granted concerning this issue in the past, and as those waiver requests increased in number, it became obvious to the S&T committee that the issue needed to be addressed with a rule change.Mike Turoff Instructor Examiner, USPA Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skymonkey2 0 #49 February 22, 2006 I agree with Tom, I have been to a board meeting, I talked to some one that was at the board meeting and said that only one member disagreed with it and there was hardly any discusssion, niether the S&TA Committee and the Full Baord gave it much discussion.AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E Students are our future teach them well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #50 February 22, 2006 Students are our future.Help keep them in the sport.Jump with them for free. Our sport is being raped and robbed one coach jump at a time. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
