Do everything right ... still die?

[Ron 7]

Quote

Regretable, and changing or removing only one link in that chain may have prevented the incident.

While you know I agree with you that in most cases a small error may still be the cause of a fatality and that in most times the jumper made that error.

I however also understand that sometimes shit just happens, and try as you might your best efforts are not enough.

Jumper #1 could have avoided the area...However Dust devils are hard to see at times.

2. Sure he might have grabbed bridle, but I have seen pins work loose in freefall on their own. So maybe he didn't. Maybe he could have made the closing loop tighter...But we all know that wind can work things loose.

3. Steve was at the Nationals and was one of the best. An off heading opening got him. The rules have now been changed, but it is hard for me to think a guy at the Nationals screwed up.

4. Riser didn't release. Seen it before, I bet I'll see it again. I have trouble finding fault. Maybe if they three rings were taken apart every 30 days and worked this would not have happend. But thats really hard to say.

The Video incidents...Maybe a different camera setup would have helped, Maybe a cutaway on the helmet would have helped. Maybe not. Its hard to say. I would say that these folks didn't screw up.

PC in town...Sometimes its damned if you do, and damned if you don't cutaway.

The groment line catches....Maybe a good gear check would have caught that...Maybe not.

John in Dallas. Maybe less line between the riser and the first stow would have prevented that....Maybe not. Its very hard to say.

I think that while in most cases people do screw up and it kills them. Hell I have a reputation as being one of the folks on here that almost ALWAYS find fault and voice that. But I have to be honest that I do infact think that you can do everything right and die still. Its not the norm, but I think it happens.

The trick is to do EVERYTHING to prevent it. And if bad things happen be ready to do your best and fight till you die.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quote

BTW, the only time I have heard of anyone packing lines up was on a Voodoo. I was told the manual said it was acceptable, but I never looked it up, since there seems to be better ways to pack.

#1 the best way to pack is according to what the maunal says.

#2. Centarus packed the same way long time ago, lines up.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[grasshopper 0]

#1 the best way to pack is according to what the maunal says.


Agreed, even though I am occasionally guilty of deviating from the instructions.


#2. Centarus packed the same way long time ago, lines up.


I've never had my hands on a centaurus, so I have no opinion. I did check the voodoo instructions online, and they made no mention of doing it this way, so I edited my post so no one would do that because of what I wrote.

________________________________________________________
Abbie drove me to Idaho and all I got was this lousy sigline

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

... An off heading opening got him... but it is hard for me to think a guy at the Nationals screwed up...

not directed at Ron, just generally speaking / using the word "you" in general terms...


Remember, you ARE NOT, nor WILL YOU EVER be so good as to not possibly die in this sport. Do not let yourself or your friends ever think so.

[wmw999 2,122]

No one ever does EVERYTHING right on something as complex, with as many steps, as a skydive. There's always fault to be found somewhere.

All you can do is understand as many of them as well as you can, and mitigate the risks so that mistakes you make, or are likely to make, are less likely to end in disaster.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

I was mostly trying to make a point.

I understand Mr. Martin was a racer jumper prior to his Reflex. I also understand that there was a trend with some racer jumpers in the area, including him, to place the main d-bag in the container "lines to the top". This, the micro line on the canopy he was jumping, the location of the closing loop on the reflex, and an underset stainless steel gommet (as was common in the industry at that time are all links in the chain that lead to that fatality.

Regretable, and changing or removing only one link in that chain may have prevented the incident.

That is BS out of control JP.

Racers are sewn up more in the corners between the bottom flap and side flaps of the main pack tray to hold the bag. If you put the bag in upsidedown, you can induce container lock. When you put the bag in with lines at the bottom, the bag rotates 90 degrees before being launched out of the pack tray. That is how it is supposed to work.

I knew James from the mid 1980's and packed Racers side by side with him on many dives. If I saw something like that I would have noticed.
Even the day he died he was showing off his new rig. His 5th jump, first of that weekend, on it killed him.
James was anal about his gear. He xrayed it after repacks with his dental xray.

I talked to a lot of the people involved with investigating that fatality. I saw pictures of the rig with the line twisted around the grommet. No where was there a suggestion that James packed the bag upsidedown.

The only person I can think of now that stashes the bag different than mfg instructions is Steve Scott. He rotates his bag 90 degrees - on a Reflex. Bag grommet sits directly underneath the flap grommets.

FMI see Line Snags on Grommets

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

#2. Centarus packed the same way long time ago, lines up.

And so did the Northern Lite III, Briefcase and Swift II.

But back then some containers still had the open area between the bottom flap and the side flaps. That was a hold over from the T-10, Piglett and PC days, when bags were not used.

Once bags were used, mfgs realized the better way was to put the lines at the bottom and sew up that part of the pack tray between the side and bottom flaps.
During deployment the bag rotates 90 degrees before in comes out of the pack tray.
Without the sewn corners holding the bag, the bag could rotate around the axis of the bridle line and cause line twists.

Today, you see the Birdsuit people cutting away the sewn corners because they have longer deployment times. Really a better solution is to use a longer bridle line, so that the pilot chute is beyond the recirculation zone (aka burble) and use a bigger pilot chute.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Ron 7]

Quote

Remember, you ARE NOT, nor WILL YOU EVER be so good as to not possibly die in this sport. Do not let yourself or your friends ever think so.

100% agree. My old saying was, "The ground does not care how nice you were, how skilled you were, or what you ment to do....It only cares what happend."

The point I was trying to make was a skilled (Steve was quite skilled), current (When you compete at Nationals you try to be on the very top of your game) and good (He was quite good as well)....Accidents still pop up through no fault of your own. And all your skill may not be enough to pull you through.

Sandy W at Chicago is another good example.

As much as I would like to think we are in total control. We are not. The best we can do is to try like hell to minimize the risk the best we can. and that means make the best choices way before we ever start gearing up.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[grasshopper 0]

Thank you for setting JP straight on the James Martin incident.

Quote

The only person I can think of now that stashes the bag different than mfg instructions is Steve Scott. He rotates his bag 90 degrees - on a Reflex. Bag grommet sits directly underneath the flap grommets.

If you look around, it is more common than you think. I know of more than one professional packer who does this, as well as many wingsuit fliers. The only manufacture that I am aware of to aprove this is wings, but there may be others.

________________________________________________________
Abbie drove me to Idaho and all I got was this lousy sigline

[darnknit 0]

it should also be noted that there are some people who did everything wrong yet still lived. these are the examples that lead some people to believe that skydiving is safe.

blue stuff,
p.j.

pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

[tbrown 26]

Quote

Shannon Embry at the women's record attempts. Perris 2002.

Wasn't Shannon's death due to a medical condition that just happened to occur as she was opening ? That's what we've heard, that she bled out from the same thing that killed John Ritter.

Also, as she had just been in a world record that day, isn't there a rule about "all participants must live for 24 hrs" for the record to be valid ? Did that become an issue in validating the 2002 record ?

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[billvon 2,400]

>Wasn't Shannon's death due to a medical condition that just
>happened to occur as she was opening ?

A hard opening caused a massive hemorrage that killed her. I don't know how hard, or if she had a condition that made her more susceptible to such injury.

>Also, as she had just been in a world record that day, isn't there a
> rule about "all participants must live for 24 hrs" for the record to be
> valid ?

She was not on the record jump.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Praetorian,

This first one I ever knew of was written up in a SKYDIVER magazine article sometime in '67. I think it was somewhere in the midwest (not important). It was a simple hop-n-pop water jump. The gear in question was conventional (for you non-senior citizens, that means a chest pack reserve). He exited, had a very slight malfunction on his ParaCommander (most onlookers felt that he could have easily road it into the water without incidence), he cutaway, fell away, pulled his pilot chute deployed round reserve which had a major malfunction; impact with the water killed him.

I think that meets your criteria about where doing everything right results in a death.

Getting out of bed is very dangerous, in my book.

[namgrunt 0]

The trick is to do EVERYTHING to prevent it. And if bad things happen be ready to do your best and fight till you die.

[murps2000 86]

7. 6/23/1998 Cross Keys, NJ
Description: PC in Tow, reserve deployed, entagement. ***


Was this the Denise's reflex "catapult" entanglement? If so, I'm not sure it fits the criteria.

[Wobblyhead 0]

Seems most are 2 out entanglements

[Ron 7]

Quote

Was this the Denise's reflex "catapult" entanglement? If so, I'm not sure it fits the criteria.

I'm not sure...Can you tell us more about Denise's situation and why you think her actions were at fault?

Most PC in tow situations have two courses of action:

1. Cutaway and pull the reserve.
2. Pull the reserve without cutting away.

Both can save you or kill you. To be honest I am not sure which is a "better" course of action.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[murps2000 86]

I'm not sure...Can you tell us more about Denise's situation and why you think her actions were at fault?

Most PC in tow situations have two courses of action:

1. Cutaway and pull the reserve.
2. Pull the reserve without cutting away.

Both can save you or kill you. To be honest I am not sure which is a "better" course of action. ***


Well first, the disclaimer. I didn't know Denise, but a good friend of mine jumped with her a bit back in the 90's. And I certainly don't want to reopen old emotional wounds that have long since healed. I've always had a blast at X-keys, and the people there are way cool, so if anyone takes offense, I apologise. Also, if anyone who was there wants to correct me, please do so.

With that said, I took more than a passing interest in this incident because it generated a good bit of controversy over the catapult. In addition, word was at the time that anyone who had a catapult equipped Reflex wasn't allowed to jump it at X-keys. (For those who don't know much about the Reflex container, the catapult is a secondary reserve pilot chute attached farther down the reserve bridle, and the rig could be jumped with it or without it depending on the owner's preference.)

Since I had my catapult installed at the time, I called the DZ to get the straight dope. I was told that they only recommended it be removed based on the conclusions of the rigger who examined Denise's gear. I also inquired about what exactly happened, and this is what I was told:

1)For whatever reason, she had an out of sequence deployment, resulting in a horseshoe mal.

2)The main pc (leg mount) was deployed

3)The reserve was pulled, but the cutaway was not.

4)The reserve never got out because the bridle and catapult hit the trash, and then wrapped itself around the freebag, with the catapult tying a "larks head" around the lines.


The catapult got much of the blame for this fatality, and after actually speaking extensively with the very same rigger who examined the gear a few years later, I believe it did contribute. But according to the first person I spoke with, the handles were pulled in the wrong order. I also spoke with the Reflex manufacturer at the time and he said that the catapult was never designed to deal with this situation, and that if it were, it would have to be ballistically deployed.

Now, I pretty much think there was jumper error at some point during the skydive, but I can't aver that because I wasn't there and I don't know what kind of skydiving she was doing at the time. I don't know what caused the out of sequence deployment, and I don't know at what altitude she took her corrective action. This is why I removed my catapult. Everyone plans on chopping whatever they have to before pulling the reserve, but in the real world things don't always work out. Sometimes you get down and dirty and the only thing you have time left for is the silver. In that situation, I think the catapult is not as good as a single, conventional, spring loaded pc.

So back to my original statement: I'm not sure if this fits the criteria. But I'm also not sure if it doesn't.

[Ron 7]

Quote

But according to the first person I spoke with, the handles were pulled in the wrong order

See here is my problem. There is no "Right" order with a PC in tow.

Either can save or either can kill you. I honestly think a PC in tow is a crap shoot.

(I prefer to dump the reserve, then get ready on the cutaway if I feel the need). But to be honest, the only reason I like this method is:

1. You have to stop falling. You might survive a double out, but you can't survive landing a PC only.

2. If you cutaway first you have only one option left. If you deploy the reserve you can still cutaway later if you feel the need.

To be honest thats just *my opinion*. There are people who did exactly what I wrote and died. And there are people who did the opposite and also died.

I think with a PC in tow the only real answer is to do something...Fast.

So I think she made the right calls...She did pull the reserve.

Now the issue with the Catapult....Well that *could* be considered a bad move. I think its normally a bad move to be the first on the block with a new toy. And safety starts with gear selection.

But, the gear seemed to be a good idea. To the best of my "Armchair" review she seemed to make the best choices she could have, and maybe the exact same ones I would have made.

Given that she made the same choices I would like to think I would have made....I think she did everything to the best she could. And yet, she still died.

It is cases like this that make me think you can do everyting "right" and still die.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[murps2000 86]

I guess it wasn't clear from my post, but she didn't have a PC in tow.

After the out of sequence deployment, the bag was out of the container, but it horseshoed because the main PC was still in the pouch. Then the main PC was pulled, either by her (correctly), or by the relative wind. It was a leg mount PC, so it's highly likely she could have pulled it. The main was then completely deployed, but it malfunctioned (I believe a baglock, which, is common after a horseshoe followed by main PC deployment). After that the reserve was pulled without a cutaway, for whatever reason we will never know. I wouldn't be surprised if she was getting low at that point after fighting with a horseshoe, and just went for silver, but that's purely speculative on my part.


If it were a simple PC in tow, however, I would agree completely with your assessment. I'm with the go straight to silver crowd on that one.


As far as the catapult is concerned, I was on the fence about it for a good while, because again, it was never designed to deal with a deployment into a still attached main, and I never planned to do that. But I bet Denise never did either. The catapult does work well if your primary reserve PC gets entangled with you, but even if you don't have one, you still have the option of attempting a hand deploy of the freebag.

What the rigger in question pointed out to me was that on a normal reserve deployment, the catapult and primary reserve PC don't deploy together in a straight line. If they both catch air (and despite the "hesitator flap" on a reflex, it is very possible that they will), they deploy at different speeds and not necessarily in the same column of air. That's not a big deal if you've accomplished a nice, clean cutaway, but if you're towing a mess of shit, I can see that length of bridle between the two PC's as being decidedly inconvenient.

I hope I'm a little more clear, now, and sorry for the hijack. I do very much agree that you can do everything right and still die, but it very rarely goes down that way. Even if the jumper made no mistakes, often someone else down the line did.

[Ron 7]

Quote

I guess it wasn't clear from my post, but she didn't have a PC in tow.

I see thank you very much. I aways thought she had a PC in tow.

Thanks.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[steve1 5]

I had a friend killed at the World Record attempts about five years ago near Chicago. He was hit on deployment. I think the other jumper died....Steve1

[skydiverek 55]

Quote

I had a friend killed at the World Record attempts about five years ago near Chicago. He was hit on deployment. I think the other jumper died....Steve1

1998. Sandy Wombach (sp?) died on that jump. No AAD...

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Quote

I had a friend killed at the World Record attempts about five years ago near Chicago. He was hit on deployment. I think the other jumper died....Steve1

1998. Sandy Wombach (sp?) died on that jump. No AAD...

You are confusing TWO separate collisions at TWO separate events years apart.

The first one was Sandy colliding with a jumper that had just turned to track away from a funneled formation.

The second one was when a guy on an outer wave pulled earlier than his assigned pull altitude. He did not track far enough or long enough. A guy from an inner wave caught up to him and was in the path of destruction.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[steve1 5]

His name was Paul from Montana. I thought the DZ was near Chicago. I could be off a year or two. It was about five years ago. Three guys from our club went, but only two came back. I'm sure someone else on here knows the details. I heard they spotted the body later from another airplane....Steve1